Sex industry

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Alan

It's a bullshit argument and everyone else knows it.

Do you even realise how many straw men you threw up in this thread? On the basis of what I've seen from you so far I have very little faith that you're even capable of recognising an argument never mind assessing the merits of it. Please prove me wrong.

[Miss Absynthe]

[quote=Elystan;683351]... you say "nobody chooses to be a whore*".../QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure that I answered this by saying that I chose to be a whore, but also by stating that I was never in a position where I was coerced or forced into sex work and that in my situation I was lucky in that I actually had a choice about it. Many people are in a position where they either don't have a choice, or the choice that they have is to either sell sex or not have enough money for food, shelter etc.

[JCC]

I don't think it has anything to do with being young really, it's practical when we're more sexually adventurous than ever and oral is more important. I shave my body hair, I don't like the feel or look of it. If I had a mass of pubic hair I would expect a girl to want me to shave. Having a bush could be liberating if people are trying to force you not to but shaving is not inherently oppressive and I know as many guys that do it as girls.

[Elystan]

[quote=Miss Absynthe;683353]

Originally Posted by Elystan

... you say "nobody chooses to be a whore*".../QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure that I answered this by saying that I chose to be a whore, but also by stating that I was never in a position where I was coerced or forced into sex work and that in my situation I was lucky in that I actually had a choice about it. Many people are in a position where they either don't have a choice, or the choice that they have is to either sell sex or not have enough money for food, shelter etc.

I was really responding to the thread as it stood before I bailed on it, and then to the last few posts I just read. I don't recall having read any posts by you so far, I have no quarrel with you. I'll go back and have a look what you posted. I may have more questions for you.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Miss Absynthe

I am simply saying that my personal experience is different from that... that I enjoy what I do, that it hasn't made me jaded, that I don't have 'dead stripper eyes' as someone talked about before... and I am aware of my level of privilege and recognise that a lot of these things are due to the fact that I have that privilege.

*applause*

[Saya]

Originally Posted by JCC

I don't think it has anything to do with being young really, it's practical when we're more sexually adventurous than ever and oral is more important. I shave my body hair, I don't like the feel or look of it. If I had a mass of pubic hair I would expect a girl to want me to shave.

I don't shave my pits, and my sister tells me I'm disgusting for it. I asked her if she tells her boyfriend he's disgusting for having armpit hair, but she said "Men are SUPPOSED to be hairy!" Its not just pubes, women are expected to be hairless and pubic hair is the new standard for that. And to reiterate what Solumina said earlier, some women go further and shave EVERYTHING, even light hair you can't see. Because women aren't supposed to have a single bit of body hair.

If you trim, it is no hindrance to oral sex. And what I find odd is that with women, there's no pressure to shave or adhere to beauty standards established by heterosexual porn. I know I run in feminist circles but particularly among queer women, body hair is an awesome way to say fuck you to impossible beauty standards. While I don't agree with lesbian separatism I kind of get it, its pretty liberating not being told you can't do something because if you do it, "no man will want you", if you're "unfuckable" in heterosexism's eyes, OH WELL, and I find more acceptance of different body types and gender expressions.

[Elystan]

Edit: work in progress.

Originally Posted by Miss Absynthe

No body is saying that there is no way someone can choose prostitution and find it a positive experience.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Compare and contrast:

Originally Posted by Versus

Fine. My opinion of the Prostitute Utopia is that it is irrelevant because I am unaware of any characteristics or circumstances therein which can be taken from and applied to positively improve prostitution as a whole.

i.e. if you weren't trafficked you were living in Utopia and your experiences are irrelevant.

[Elystan]

7 minutes to edit? Such bullshit. Anyway,

Edit: work in progress.

Originally Posted by Miss Absynthe

No body is saying that there is no way someone can choose prostitution and find it a positive experience.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Compare and contrast:

Originally Posted by Elystan

It's just none of you seem to accept that prostitution, or escorting since we've used the word (escorting means selling 'intimate companionship' for money) can be an informed choice.

Originally Posted by Versus

As if there's any real choice! I mean, who WOULDN'T want to be gang ***** for a grand an hour? Fuck yeah, sign me the fuck up for that job.

Originally Posted by Versus

My opinion of the Prostitute Utopia is that it is irrelevant because I am unaware of any characteristics or circumstances therein which can be taken from and applied to positively improve prostitution as a whole.

etc etc

i.e. if you weren't trafficked you were living in Utopia and your experiences are irrelevant.

Also back to this one:

Originally Posted by JCC

£200/h? You're fucking deluded, man.

Back me up here, I'm guessing what you earned was probably not more than 50% different either way?

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Versus

As if there's any real choice! I mean, who WOULDN'T want to be gang ***** for a grand an hour? Fuck yeah, sign me the fuck up for that job.

Unless you get paid enough, AMIRITEBRO?

This is in direct response to

Originally Posted by Elystan

Money is power, shouldn't the ability to earn a months wages in a few hours therefore be empowering?

And especially,

A pretty young girl can easily make £200/hour, which isn't huge. That would mean 100 hour long bookings for an annual wage of £20,000. That might be a lot of men, but most people work 100 hours in two weeks. Also there's nothing to say that it has to be the sole source of income. It would be quite easy to take a booking here and there to supplement the income from a full time job. There's a risk of violence but that didn't stop you.

After I had just listed a slew of things wrong with prostitution.

You fucking twit.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Elystan

Back me up here, I'm guessing what you earned was probably not more than 50% different either way?

You're still not understanding the split between middle-class escort-style sex work like Belle du Jour or whatever, which I'm assuming is what Miss Absynthe was involved with, and being a street prostitute with a pimp. She even said she's a call girl, as well as acknowledging the implicit privileges she has in terms of money, education, race, gender etc to expect a higher quality of living in her profession. It's different. In fact, did Miss Absynthe even say she has sex with her clients?

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Versus

This is in direct response to



And especially,



After I had just listed a slew of things wrong with prostitution.

You fucking twit.

Nested quotes are impossible here, but that post I quoted was actually a direct response to the post of mine quoted above it, you can click the little arrow thing to check it if you like.

As for this:

"A pretty young girl can easily make £200/hour, which isn't huge. That would mean 100 hour long bookings for an annual wage of £20,000. That might be a lot of men, but most people work 100 hours in two weeks. Also there's nothing to say that it has to be the sole source of income. It would be quite easy to take a booking here and there to supplement the income from a full time job. There's a risk of violence but that didn't stop you."

It's pretty much facts.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by JCC

You're still not understanding the split between middle-class escort-style sex work like Belle du Jour or whatever, which I'm assuming is what Miss Absynthe was involved with, and being a street prostitute with a pimp. She even said she's a call girl, as well as acknowledging the implicit privileges she has in terms of money, education, race, gender etc to expect a higher quality of living in her profession. It's different. In fact, did Miss Absynthe even say she has sex with her clients?

Page 1:

Originally Posted by Elystan

So I'm sure we can agree that human trafficking is a form of slavery and to be condemned as such. But what about prostitution itself? Where the coercion factor is no greater than economic coercion to get a job?

Page 2:

Originally Posted by Elystan

If you allow for the fact that it is a social illness when people are forced into prostitution, that says nothing about those who choose it.

Originally Posted by Elystan

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but I think we can take is as a given that human trafficking and being forced to sell sex is an appalling thing?

Sex slavery is appalling because it's slavery not because it's sex.

There are probably more.

[Versus]

I know when and where my own fucking posts occurred. I'll break it down for you because you're obviously not understanding that I was trolling to illicit a response from you because you refuse to acknowledge that you said in the simplest sense that it doesn't matter how fucked up prostitution is as long as you can make some money doing it.

Money is power, shouldn't the ability to earn a months wages in a few hours therefore be empowering?

Do all prostitutes have pimps? Does socialism not acknowledge that capitalism is the current state of the world? Is money not power in our society?

Brothels are not the whole story. Plenty of independent escorts out there. There is a price curve.

Do you feel that giving a man sex for money should be viewed no differently than for instance giving him a massage or fixing his car? Or is there inherently a difference that sets prostitutes apart from other kinds of service provider?

A pretty young girl can easily make £200/hour, which isn't huge. That would mean 100 hour long bookings for an annual wage of £20,000. That might be a lot of men, but most people work 100 hours in two weeks. Also there's nothing to say that it has to be the sole source of income. It would be quite easy to take a booking here and there to supplement the income from a full time job. There's a risk of violence but that didn't stop you.

I'm not necessarily saying it's empowering, but the idea that a woman must be forced to sell herself is erroneous.

Literally, everything above is something you have said in direct response to somebody explaining to you that prostitution is dangerous. In fact, the last was immediately after I told you that **** and murder are a constant threat to sex workers.

By dismissing that threat of violence with how much money you think a prostitute can make, you are saying that there is price tag that negates an amount of violence.

LISTEN, YOU PRIVILEGED, MISOGYNISTIC TWAT: IT DOES NOT MATTER A FUCKING BIT HOW MUCH MONEY SOMEBODY CAN EARN IF THEY DO SO WITH VIOLENCE HANGING OVER THEM. YOU CANNOT BUY SECURITY, AND IT IS FUCKING WRONG TO SAY THAT MONEY > LIFE.

[Elystan]

You're a raging cunt, hope this helps.

[Versus]

I'm pretty sure I'm way cooler then you are.

[Misanthrope]

Originally Posted by Versus

LISTEN, YOU PRIVILEGED, MISOGYNISTIC TWAT: IT DOES NOT MATTER A FUCKING BIT HOW MUCH MONEY SOMEBODY CAN EARN IF THEY DO SO WITH VIOLENCE HANGING OVER THEM. YOU CANNOT BUY SECURITY, AND IT IS FUCKING WRONG TO SAY THAT MONEY > LIFE.

That's just like your opinion, man.

Ever see a football player at 45, or look at how shitty Hulk Hogan's looking lately? It ain't pretty, is it?

There are massive amounts of people who have decided that not just the threat of violence, but the inevitability of some level of violence is acceptable or even desirable, given enough cold hard cash.

[ape descendant]

We are making a federal case out of body hair. Simple solution. If you like having it, keep it, if you don't like it, shave/ remove it.

Find a partner who likes it the way you keep it. WOOT

This whole "feminist" fad obsession with body hair is just another way to shame women about how we choose to or not to keep our bodies. After reading some stupid article about pubic hair, in which the worth of a woman was boiled down to her willingness to cultivate a full on bush, I decided that this stance was just as demeaning and objectifying as those who would require a shave.

In the end, I think it's rather retarded to care too much about how one styles their body hair outside being a person who sees and deals with it every day.

I shall leave it here before I go off on a full rant.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Elystan

There are probably more.

Yeah, and what? You're calling me out on what I said about street prostitution wages by asking Miss Absynthe. We've already clarified several times that street prostitution versus call girls/escorts are two practically separate worlds, so when I said it was stupid to say that street prostitutes earn £200/h, it doesn't matter what Miss Absynthe or any other privileged sex worker earns. I know that certain prostitutes can earn thousands in an hour depending on who their clients are, those prostitutes are not the prostitutes anyone is talking about and you still don't seem to really get that.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Misanthrope

That's just like your opinion, man.

Ever see a football player at 45, or look at how shitty Hulk Hogan's looking lately? It ain't pretty, is it?

There are massive amounts of people who have decided that not just the threat of violence, but the inevitability of some level of violence is acceptable or even desirable, given enough cold hard cash.

I can't imagine who would accept or even be directly involved in violence for a pay check, but you're right. Some people are okay with it. That doesn't make it right.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by JCC

Yeah, and what? You're calling me out on what I said about street prostitution wages by asking Miss Absynthe. We've already clarified several times that street prostitution versus call girls/escorts are two practically separate worlds, so when I said it was stupid to say that street prostitutes earn £200/h, it doesn't matter what Miss Absynthe or any other privileged sex worker earns. I know that certain prostitutes can earn thousands in an hour depending on who their clients are, those prostitutes are not the prostitutes anyone is talking about and you still don't seem to really get that.

When did I specify street prostitution? I didn't say the average wage of a street prostitute is X amount, I said a pretty young girl can easily make that much if she so chooses. That was my statement, so if you are to disagree with me then that's the statement you have to disagree with.

Honestly this is really tedious, so here on out I'm only gonna respond to anything if it's not a complete straw man attack.

[Misanthrope]

Originally Posted by Versus

I can't imagine who would accept or even be directly involved in violence for a pay check, but you're right. Some people are okay with it. That doesn't make it right.

Athletes, Policemen, Armament Manufacturers, Prison Guards, Soldiers.

It's seems to be okay if you can tell people it's for the greater good, or entertainment.

[Versus]

Nah, that stuff is different. Violence in sex work is like if your boss or customer at Star Bucks decided she wants to break your nose.

[Grausamkeit]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

We are making a federal case out of body hair. Simple solution. If you like having it, keep it, if you don't like it, shave/ remove it.

Find a partner who likes it the way you keep it. WOOT

This whole "feminist" fad obsession with body hair is just another way to shame women about how we choose to or not to keep our bodies. After reading some stupid article about pubic hair, in which the worth of a woman was boiled down to her willingness to cultivate a full on bush, I decided that this stance was just as demeaning and objectifying as those who would require a shave.

In the end, I think it's rather retarded to care too much about how one styles their body hair outside being a person who sees and deals with it every day.

I shall leave it here before I go off on a full rant.

Wow. That article is extremely offensive. Fuck that idiot for attempting to make a correlation between shaved pubes and loveless sex. And saying that shaving is an act of submission to men, brings women no pleasure....what a fucktard. I'm just going to stop right here, though. Someone is obsessed with pubes!

I'm not gonna dwell on that moron when there's a sexy woman sportin' an awesome death-hawk standin' near me......*RAWR*

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by Elystan

When did I specify street prostitution? I didn't say the average wage of a street prostitute is X amount, I said a pretty young girl can easily make that much if she so chooses. That was my statement, so if you are to disagree with me then that's the statement you have to disagree with.

Honestly this is really tedious, so here on out I'm only gonna respond to anything if it's not a complete straw man attack.

You mightn't have specified street prostitution, but when you look at the numbers you have got to admit that the highest numbers of people who are working are working from the streets, are not paid well and are working because they either can't make the money they need elsewhere or they are caught up in some sort of situation that means that they don't have another option.

I've said over and again that my situation is totally different than most people who are prostitutes. I have choice and I have privilege, and to imply that this is the norm for sex workers is not only inaccurate, but it is silencing the voices of those who are forced into a situation that they don't want to be in. We have to recognise and admit that this problem exists so that something can be done about it.

[Catch]

Whatever, I think several women and men were approached by people who wanted them to go into prostitution. Considering this, it is probably about impossible for an average person going into the sex industry without coercion, **** or some amount of incompetence like the innocence of youth or drug use. At times, it is probably all of them; therefore, most people probably assume that people going into the sex industry were unable to "see the signs," or lack parental support when being surrounded by dishonest or people who are enacting a similar lifestyle on someone else.

I also feel the same way. If people were able to protect themselves better no one would chose to be chose to place themselves in the role of a pariah who enables people to commit adultery. However, one the flip side, I believe the "average" person might be engaging in behaviors that are complimentary to failed marriages and seeking relationships with people who are only expecting financial compensation.