Dog killed by politics....

[Rizash]

FYI: I'm not back I'm just ranting and checking a few things, too busy lately to keep up with forums!

Ok for those who dont know "Dog" the bounty hunter has all but been fired for making comments to his son about how he didnt want his sons black girlfriend around while the show was being filmed because he uses the N word....

*IF* these comments were made in public or on the show I could *ALMOST* understand shelving the show like they did. But remember he's a badass ex druggie/even had something to do with a murder... anyone who thought this guy had to be 100% clean and couldnt be a racist was dreaming.... So its expected that his dark side show from time to time.... All should have been forgiven.

INSTEAD.... This private conversation (it was a voicemail to his son) is played OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER on all the major news networks making it so bad after hearing it about 20 times that ANYONE starts to get just about sick from hearing it.

Why do I have a problem with this? I think he sees this as a bad side of himself and since he isnt capable of dealing with it he's trying to hide it.... Its not a perfect sollution, but why take the fact that he's trying his hardest to hide his racist side and turn it against him. At least BEFORE he was a positive influence. He stood for law and education, justice and PEACE, and fighting drug addictions.... Now *ALL* he is and I mean *ALL* he will ever be seen as by this god-forsaken idiotic media we have is a racist. Forget everything he's done forget the lives he's saved forget the lives he's turned around, forget the kids he's shown that its GOOD to be a law abiding citizen or that its good to be a cop... now he's just a bad guy because some asshole sent in a private conversation to the media (illegally and immorally by the way). I think I'm going to be sick.....

I dont care what people think about the guy... he took a rough start and turned his life around. He was AT LEAST hiding the fact that he is racist from people. If you cant change yourself at least dont show the side of yourself that you dont want others see... thats a *GOOD* way to live.....

NOW instead of him still helping people he'll probably lose his job, etc.... And things will be MUCH more dangerous for him.... I think whatever moron leaked that tape to the press should be sued for everything they ever make in their lifetime. You've just done something illegal, immoral, and TOTALLY uncalled for.

Yes this is a rant... and before you say I'm backing/protecting racists.... Well I am, and I'm not.... I'll say this... there is not ONE human being on this planet that does not judge people, NOT ONE. For him to carry out a career 30 years with a good image and with no-one knowing that side of him (even his friends said this shocked them) I think he should be applauded. The guy has the flaws every human being has and has done a damn good job keeping himself on the level after a rough start. Then someone pulls the rug out from under him and puts something he said to his son EVERYWHERE where no-one can hide from it. We *ALL* look bad under a microscope and given time stuff like this is going to happen to everyone.... If it isnt racism its education, or fashion, or something.... If we live in a society where a PRIVATE conversation that no-one else ever had any business hearing can get you fired then something is wrong.

Bottom line is this holier than thou crap has to end, N-O-W. I'm sick of all these racial leaders saying they're for equality and advancement when they're just trying to make EVERYONE else look bad.... Look at the crap this has caused. I bet if this had happened before the Imus thing he would still have his job and NOTHING would have happened.... But now because of a few leaders who will do ANYTHING to make everyone look like they are evil and the worst people on Earth, we take things that should never see the light of day and bring them into perspective.

I'm sorry but until about 10 years ago there were only two places I had *EVER* heard the N-word. One was from a very old fashioned old school relative of mine and the other was at school. Now I swear I cant go 30 seconds without hearing it on TV, or hearing it in horrid rap music that I hate. This culture is doomed if it continues to praise morons who rap with the N word every other phrase and then the second someone from another race says it they are fired, sued, and otherwise left for dead with no hope for reprieve.

If you dont see whats happening here instead of a legal or standards system within the entertainment industry with rules/punishment etc.... we have a totally one sided system where racial humor is fine from all sides save for one. And if someone does slip up even in a private conversation to their own family they lose everything in a heartbeat. The system has no checks and balances, no trials, just a swift blade that kills ALL in its path.

If you want to know why this scares me... its because I see this coming into other forms of government and other control systems. I see a day where every car has GPS on it and if you speed you are ticketed with no chance to have the system tested or calibrated, a day when if someone forgets to clear an RFID tag on a purchase you're making at a store, you get arrested for theft, no questions asked. Or even scarier, a day when you're arrested for speaking your mind or simply having thoughts that were seeded into your being before you were even walking.

Why do I draw these VERY stretched conclusions? Because it is happening NOW. We have more racial hatred on TV now than we did ten years ago, we have more people losing jobs because of what they say or how they feel -- WITHOUT the ability to question why....

It is already too late for one thing... more people are now armed with and primed to use the terrible N word than ever before.... More people are terrified and annoyed about racism than ever before. Although many terrible things have been done by white people in the past (and are done today) it seems like every great achievement that ALL white people are doing NOW is being wiped out by the comments of a single white person every time they say something stupid and rude.... Dont believe me? The last three times space exploration events have happened there have been news events where someone said some horrible things about other races, but where were the REAL news stories???? We've lost our fair and balanced news media.... Thats for sure.


Please let this nonsense end! How the hell can you allow music with the N word to be published DAILY and fire people DAILY for saying the N word?



This is way beyond messed up.... This is just nonsense.....

[CptSternn]

I myself have a huge rant on this...

First, to address your post. Blacks in America have been, and still are, a second class of people. Even though many laws have been enacted to help level the playing field, racism still is thriving. Incidents like this just bring the issue to the fore front of the media and give an opening to discuss these issues.

I do see why people are angered when they hear music that uses the same word to describe the same people, however, there is a big difference.

In Ireland, we are Fenians. We are not anglos or saxons, nor are we descended from either. We are Fenians and proud. In N. Ireland, the loyalist thugs use the term 'Fenians' much like the racist slur you speak of above in your post. It's not the word itself - it's the context you put it in. It is meant in a derogatory manner and attempts to demoralise anyone who it is being used to describe when used by people who harbour racist sentiments. In this instance, thats exactly what the man was doing - using a emotionally charged word to describe a person they had no good thing to say about - therefore this is racist and is wrong.

He could have said 'bitch', 'scumbag', hell, a myriad of other condescending words that didn't have the history attached. The fact he choose to go down that path shows his mindset and he got exactly what he deserved. Why? Because when you use such words you do not just attack the person you are describing, you belittle the people as a whole, using a word that has kept them down for centuries and is used intentionally as such.

That being said, lets talk about 'dog'. I personally can't stand him. I have watched his show, and I am amazed at the levels he would sink to imprison his fellow countrymen. First, America is the only nation in the world that has private bounty hunters that track down people for the judicial system. It's a screwed up system to begin with. Having a man track down his fellow countrymen is just wrong. It says a lot about that man who would treat his fellow countrymen as criminals, animals even.

Furthermore, 'dog' just recently had the charges in Mexico that he had pending dropped. Why? He skipped bail back in 2003 and the statue of limitations expired. More to the point - he did exactly what the people on his show do to avoid being prosecuted in a court of law. hypocrite is an understatement. This man preaches to the people he 'catches' about how they shouldn't run and should face their charges, yet the first time he is arrested he does exactly the same thing they do, and then brags about it on his show. That makes him probably the lowest form of life on the planet in my book.

He knowingly broke the law, for money and fame. He is no better than the people he is 'hunting'.

I'm glad to see his true self finally got the best of him and he is now going off the air. People like him do not need tv shows, they need professional counciling, or even better, a swift kick up the hole.

I'd be willing to provide the latter.

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

We are not anglos or saxons, nor are we descended from either. We are Fenians and proud.

Heh. S'like saying "Democrat" is now an ethnicity to rival other historical ancestries. I'll be sure to look for, "Fenian," on the next Irish census taken.

[KontanKarite]

I think Sternn just pwnticated Dog...

Sadly, this isn't about politics killing a real dog. Which would be sad and funny at the same time.

[Rizash]

Well you TOTALLY missed the ENTIRE point of my post.

First a word about bounty hunting... this is NOT the crap you see on TV... its not collecting money for arresting people. What this is is his company PAYS the court system when people cannot afford to pay their bail fees (if someone didnt do this those people would rot in jail while waiting on trial). Yes thats right, innocent until proven guilty is NOT TRUE in this country you have to pay whatever a judge tells you to pay to be set free while waiting for trial. MANY people flee because they are guilty and are trying to cheat the system... they are basically stealing the money (thousands of dollars to hundreds of thousands) he is loaning them to help them out. When people flee he brings them back to the court system so he can get his cash back.... Thats ALL it is, its not looking for wanted criminals and collecting rewards or anything stupid like that.... Remember in this country ANYONE can make a citizens arrest, if he doesnt get them he loses all that cash.

Again IF this were about racism IN PUBLIC or ON AIR or TOWARDS someone... I would understand kicking him.... But this isnt, AT ALL.

This is about an argument he and his son have been having for MONTHS. Bottom line is Dog didnt want her around because he didnt want to be seen using the N word.... His sun rubbed it in and ground it into him endlessly until he snapped. This was a PRIVATE phone conversation that should NEVER be published.... His son is rumored to have sent it in himself just to ruin Dog's career.... If that doesnt show how much more to this story there is... nothing does.

As for the connotation... That would be fine, *IF* white people could say it in a positive light. This is NOT the way it is.... Even if *I* (who has NEVER said that word) said it the most polite way possible to any black person I'd probably either get hit/assaulted or have quite a few people that would never say another word to me again.... On top of that I have the good sense/taste to never say that word. Most people (of *ALL* races here) who are capable of using that word WITHOUT a negative connotation WILL NEVER use it.... I'm sorry "its in a song" isnt an excuse for something like this.... It *NEVER* will be, and we will NEVER see people stop using this word -with or without negative meaning - JUST to cause a scene until it is removed from culture EVENLY. I'm sorry but you CAN NOT say that it is fair for one person to say a word and not for another.... Its illegal, immoral, and IS a form of racism....

On the other side of this.... You have people who ARE racist... who CANNOT admit they are racist because it means they WILL be fired. The news media doesnt see this, the world is blind to it.... If ANYONE could admit their problems Dog probably could have.... The guy isnt afraid to admit his faults.... So now instead of people being able to face their problems/faults there is yet another reason to BECOME racist....

I'm sorry I just dont understand what people are trying to achieve.... Instead of trying to eliminate racism they are ENFORCING racist laws without any form of checks and balances, without any measure of justice or equality and without ANY sanity.

I know in some parts of the world and to some people words cause great pain.... I know some people have been through what I cannot imagine and I'm sorry for that.... But why do we need to cause more pain to ALL PEOPLE and create more tension between races because people want to keep their TWISTED culture of self hatred and self destructive music.... And at the same time they push harder and harder against anyone who feels a little stepped on because people ARE being treated unfairly.

Look at this closely.... I dont really give a damn what happens to this guy... he is what he is and that wont change because of this (although he will probably hate a race he already had problems with a lot more because of this). The more you try to squash something like racism the more NEW racism you create. The racism of old is still there, it was never solved and CANNOT be solved by law or people losing their jobs for saying what is on their mind (however freaking stupid their views may be). What we need is to BRIDGE GAPS. We need to find ways of getting people together and having people actually get to know each other. The people that currently refuse to acknowledge the advantages of working with and getting to know other cultures will be forced to change *ONLY* when the average person DOES have regular close connections to people of other races. Some people will never open their minds. They should not be forced to change and people should just let them be.... Chances are they really would offer nothing to society as it NEEDS to be for a world where equality actually exists.

As for this stupid word... it is only a word... and again I say hearing it in my mind... as many times as I have heard it in the news only makes me hate the word.... Why do people who are in most cases generations separated from the dark meaning of the word going to such great lengths to destroy the lives of people who say this word ONCE.

I dont say this stuff in supporting racism... nor to support Dog... I dont care what he does, he's just another person I'll never know anyway. I dont say it because I feel bad for people who are wronged by this over-reaction... it is party expected after our past. I dont care about the specifics of this stuff.... I just feel the need to be a supportive voice of those who I feel very few others support.... My very blood is the result of people that helped make things the way they are now.... That is, some of my ancestors helped people flee north via the underground railroad.... I'm sure they would look down at our culture and wonder what we did wrong to allow such odd feelings to still linger.

I know it is the very fabric that makes us human that makes us have some primal need to feel above others or to try to make ourselves kings or lords of the land, but making things slosh back and forth only makes hatred grow.... Equality is something we can only achieve when we look past what we are -- flawed humans -- and finally achieve what this great species is meant to become. The day we stop judging others is the day we can finally be free of our human flaws.

[KontanKarite]

Well no shit. I and others DO see the principal of it all.

It was a private conversation and it's a huge injustice to use this against someone just to prove a point. But yes, it's an engineered reaction. The fact is and you've said it already is, "If we're supposed to be equal, then why are we still trying to put a value on things of old that are MEANT to be hurtful?"

Oh well. Yeah. It sucks and was really unfair.

[CptSternn]

I disagree. The word may have no meaning for you, because your not in the group which it offends. If there were a slang term for whatever you were, that people screamed while killing, rap-eing, and torturing your enslaved relatives, you might take it more seriously.

Using it, even in private conversations, is not appropriate, especially when your using it to describe a person of that race.

Also note, if it were a truly 'private' conversation, it wouldn't have ended up on the news.

Furthermore, I'm fully aware of how the bail system works - it's still outdated, and quite barbaric. It pits Americans against other Americans and forces them to do a job that the government itself should be doing.

[Rizash]

It was a private conversation, a phone call to his son.... Doesnt get any more private.

Also I know the word is tainted, thats why I hate the word and thats why NO-ONE should use it. I dont care where you're from or what race you are.... If one person can get fired for using it, ANYONE *MUST* be able to be fired for using it.

Unfortunately in this country if one rap artist got fired for using that word then the label would get sued for discrimination or something.... Thats how backwords our system is...

[L'Oiseau Noir]

I'm stuck in the middle of agreeing and disagreeing with this post.

Firstly, "Dog" has no right to use words such as the "N"-word, though I do agree it was taken out of context. There have been several instances where I was called a "Honky" or "Cracker" by an African-American, yet when I reported this nothing was done about it. Unfortunately, our country is one-sided and politicians will do everything they can to keep the minority vote, hence why there are so many financial, healthcare, etc.,etc. funds available only to people of a minority class. That's because, many times, they will play the race card and bring up "slavery" to combat issues, or to turn things in their favor. Yet, you don't see the Christians complaining to the Italians for throwing them to the lions and torturing them during Roman reign, or the Jews to the Egyptians for enslaving them several thousand years ago; what's even worse is to this day people are still being enslaved and traded in Africa as sex slaves, guerilla soldiers, and so on. To make it worse, a majority of them are children, too.

I mean, if you don't believe me about the whole one-sided system, look at things like the NAACP, the United Negro Fund, the Black Union, African-American scholarships, all black schools and colleges, Black Entertainment Television, Hispanic scholarships, the National Society of Hispanic professionals... I could go on, and on, and on. Yet, if a person of European descent was to form a white union, establish white entertainment television or a National Association for White Advancement, they'd be deemed racists.

Basically, to sum it all up, Dog had no right to say what he said, privately or not, but also, I don't think he should have lost his job either.

Well, that's my two cents. Also, I'm not trying to advocate racism, I was merely pointing out real examples of how one-sided are legal system is.

[Broadwaypoetez]

They do have white entertainment television. It's everything but the Spanish channel and BET. Hell, "Flava of Love" is practically a minstrel act.

They do have things to help white students. The Polish National Alliance? Roman Catholic parishes? Irish dance teams?

White kids, in general, more privileged. You have to work a little harder. It's only fair. And if you're white and not privileged, there's government aid, at least some of the time.

Yes, it would be great if everyone was equal, but we're not. There's different social economic statuses, different treatment of minorities. If you think a white man is treated the same as a Latina, in this country, you're damn wrong.

I'm going on the assumption that most people posted are white.

Guess what? You're in the majority! You have NO say! And if you're a man- ha! No-one's going to listen because you are in power!

Chances are (unless you're in your best club attire) you won't be followed in a store, you won't be looked down upon at restaurants, and you won't be abused because of how you look.

[L'Oiseau Noir]

Originally Posted by Broadwaypoetez

They do have white entertainment television. It's everything but the Spanish channel and BET. Hell, "Flava of Love" is practically a minstrel act.

They do have things to help white students. The Polish National Alliance? Roman Catholic parishes? Irish dance teams?

White kids, in general, more privileged. You have to work a little harder. It's only fair. And if you're white and not privileged, there's government aid, at least some of the time.

Yes, it would be great if everyone was equal, but we're not. There's different social economic statuses, different treatment of minorities. If you think a white man is treated the same as a Latina, in this country, you're damn wrong.

I'm going on the assumption that most people posted are white.

Guess what? You're in the majority! You have NO say! And if you're a man- ha! No-one's going to listen because you are in power!

Chances are (unless you're in your best club attire) you won't be followed in a store, you won't be looked down upon at restaurants, and you won't be abused because of how you look.

Actually I've suffered plenty of abuse from the African-Americans and minorities in my school for the color of my skin. Not a day goes by I don't hear "cracker" thrown at me or whitey.

And Irish Dance teams aren't only for whites. There are African/Irish kids too, plus, it's a dance style, not a cultural preference. Plus, how many minorities do you see that want to learn Irish traditional dance? Not a hell of a whole lot.

Also, restaurants do look at me funnily even when I'm not all "goffed" up, which is hardly ever. The reason being, where I live, African-Americans are the majority.

Also, Roman Catholic parishes aren't for whites specifically. Roman catholicism is a religion, thus anyone who practices it is welcome.

As for the Polish Association, that doesn't apply to whites as a whole, just those who are of Polish descent. And believe me, not a lot of us are Polish.

And on the financial aid for under-privileged whites, I was denied it because my family seems to make too much. Mind you, my father is a freeloader who does nothing, and my mom works at Target only making $9.50 an hour, so explain this one to me.

I'm tired if the whole "all whites are privileged" bullshit. It isn't true. I'm practically living in a dump, and we're barely making enough to get by. We may even be under foreclosure soon.

We all don't live in the fucking hills, you know.

[Broadwaypoetez]

Yes, and I understand that not every white family is eating caviar and mocking the poor like some 1920's sneering villain. I said that "some of the time" there's aid because our country has a horrible system. There are white families that are living in poverty, obviously. My boyfriend's mother is an example.

And yeah, financial aid in this country is a crock. That's RICH v. POOR. Not WHITE v. BLACK.

You are in an entirely different situation.

I know that there are areas where you are going to be attacked because you are white and there is racial tension (dating back to fairly recent discrimination, now resulting in current "reverse racism").

"Cracker" or "whitey" does not have the negative connotations of sexual abuse, torture, and murder that "N" does. Irish dance is not exclusively for whites, but it does revolve around a white heritage (it's just been commercialized) and you can get scholarships. RC parishes- communities in my area are predominately Caucasian and you can get aid through them and sometimes a parishioner will set up a scholarship. I didn't say the papacy, I said the community.

No, not every white person is Polish, no crap. I'm Lithuanian. There are WHITE HERITAGES and WHITE MINORITIES that can set up scholarships.

The resources for whites are there. The resources for the poor are there. Horribly organized, but they are there.

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by Broadwaypoetez

"Cracker" or "whitey" does not have the negative connotations of sexual abuse, torture, and murder that "N" does.

So that excuses the former terms? I guess then it's alright to call a black person, "Inkface," "Spade," or any other ethic slur that doesn't date quite back as far as the 1800s?

Racism is racism. Majority or minority doesn't matter (look at what South Africa used to be), if indeed racism is something you truly oppose. As long as you use inequality as an excuse to promote inequality (i.e. "It's OK to use slurs against whites, but not blacks"), then you're moral authority in any argument about racism is equipped with empty words.

The reality of the world is that there is an imbalance, but excusing the concept of "reverse racism," a term I find flawed, is counter-productive to moving forward.

[Nike]

I agree tat all kinds of raciscm is bad, but:

"Yet, you don't see the Christians complaining to the Italians for throwing them to the lions and torturing them during Roman reign, or the Jews to the Egyptians for enslaving them several thousand years ago;"

Of course you do see them complaining to the Jews for the murder of Jesus. Unfortunatley, that's not a joke. The new testament contains a lot of antisemitic propaganda. An old book, I agree, but it took Christians quite a long time - almost 2000 years, think about that! - to admit that not ALL the Jews are responsible for the Death of Christ.

It was the 2nd Vatican council 1962-1965, when the church stated in Nostre Aetate:

"True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ. Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone."

So, til 1965 it was wonderfully ok to blame the Jews (also those of the "today") for the death of Christ.

That there is little complaint about the Romans anymore goes hand in hand with history. Rome was Christianized. Christian history went hand in hand with Roman history from Theodosius on. And the Italians? The Italians have little to do with the Romans back then. Also has today's Egypt little nothing to do with the Egypt thousands of years ago. These civilications and their cultures are long dead. Their religions are a part of history now, they aren't lived for thousands of years, their culture has to be reconstructed from tiny fragments today.

I think the comparison to African-American history is a bit weak. These things happened not so long ago. And hopefully these people will be more forgiving then the Christians were, who carried their hatred on for thousands of years.

[CptSternn]

The big difference between those conflicts and the ones that surround the 'N' word today is this: there aren't any jews, italians, etc. that are alive today that remember that racism.

When it comes to blacks, many grew up in times where they had separate water fountains and bathrooms. It was only a few years ago they hung black men for dating white women - there are still men and women who lost loved ones to various hate groups.

This generation, and the last one, tends to forget that there were people oppressed in America until the mid-seventies. That means there is a large chunk of the populace that was directly effected by institutionalised racism.

Trying to judge whats racist or not looking at only whats happening today and skipping over that past few decades, when there are living examples from those decades still alive today is very short sighted.

You might not remember or even understand why that word is such a bad thing, but ask members of MLK's family, or people who were arrested for sitting on the front of the bus how they feel about it if you want a real opinion.

This isn't century old history for them. This is remembering their younger years, which to them wasn't all that long ago.

Tie that to the fact that sure, many laws have been passed to equal the playing field, BUT how many black presidents have you seen? How many black senators? How many blacks are CEO's of fortune 500 companies? More importantly, how many blacks are in prison (Percentagewise)? How many blacks live in high-crime areas?

Sure, the laws NOW might be more fair, but with all the recent history from the past generations accompanied by the fact those new laws still have yet to fix the disproportionate amass of wealth and power in the country, many minorities are still very angry.

Also, on the subject of the 'private' conversation, once again, if it was recorded, it wasn't private. Ask any attorney - if there is a third party there, it's not a private conversation.

Furthermore, in America, you no longer have the privilege of private conversation. The government gave itself the right to listen in on your calls, record conversations between you and your lawyer, read your mail, and bug your churches. Don't think anyone can have a 'private' conversation anymore, from a legal standpoint. Accompanied by the fact that the age of camera phones and CCTV now in full swing, don't think your safe anywhere at anytime.

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

(paraphrased)

Yeah, all of that was nice, but none of it covers the fact that the double standard still exists and the same Americans you're talking about from the 50s and 60s are equally as offended as when 50 cent says the word. Yet he is A-OK to sell use of it through mass media because it's "socially acceptable" coming from him as an equally casual term for African-Americans and blacks in general.

[Rizash]

Originally Posted by Broadwaypoetez

Guess what? You're in the majority! You have NO say! And if you're a man- ha! No-one's going to listen because you are in power!

Chances are (unless you're in your best club attire) you won't be followed in a store, you won't be looked down upon at restaurants, and you won't be abused because of how you look.

As for the being in the majority... or being a guy... tell me about it. Even being borderline lower class there was NOTHING I could do to get college help or health care help etc....

As for the looked down upon comment.... I'd usually agree.... But I've been stopped/questioned many times for things.... Also when we were around 13 two of my friends were walking two blocks to get to a local burger king they were stopped and harassed by two cops.... The cops accused them of being drunk (yes, at 13) threw them in the back of the cop car, acted like they were going to pull away... then let them out and said get out of here.... Just last week I was outside my place of work (was waiting for a ride as my car is down at the moment) and a cop drove by. My ride pulled up, I hopped in, the cop followed us 3 or 4 blocks then pulled us over.... He asked for my ID and asked why I was sitting outside the building.... I explained that I worked there and after he checked to see if I had any warrants or anything or checked with HQ if any alarms were going off in the area or anything he let me go....

Now.... This is how the world looks to me: these were no big deal.... these things happen and its better than NOT having them around.... HOWEVER: if this were to happen to ANY person of minority you'd have ACLU or other minority power groups moving in and those officers would lose their jobs.... *shrugs*

I'm NOT on the side of discrimination.... I'm taking the viewpoint that as racism gets more and more rare and less and less accepted that people will take it underground. As this happens events like this will create NEW racists that are JUST as bad as generations ago. When you see preferential treatment on a LARGE scale that is ENFORCED by our government you feel you have no choice but to react.....

I'm just trying to wake people up to the fact that this is a NEW problem caused by all these pro minority groups.... *shrugs* Sorry I'm not PC but I say things how I see/FEEL them.... I'm not a racist (actually I'd give anything for a more diverse group of friends) but I feel that groups like the ACLU and NAACP are there JUST to make people look/become racist and then point at them and have them fired for what they see them as.... *shrugs* I just wish there was a better FAIR way to help even the playing field....

[Rizash]

Originally Posted by MaguMan

So that excuses the former terms? I guess then it's alright to call a black person, "Inkface," "Spade," or any other ethic slur that doesn't date quite back as far as the 1800s?

Racism is racism. Majority or minority doesn't matter (look at what South Africa used to be), if indeed racism is something you truly oppose. As long as you use inequality as an excuse to promote inequality (i.e. "It's OK to use slurs against whites, but not blacks"), then you're moral authority in any argument about racism is equipped with empty words.

The reality of the world is that there is an imbalance, but excusing the concept of "reverse racism," a term I find flawed, is counter-productive to moving forward.

The words are imbalanced, how they are looked upon is out of balance/context and how we punish/praise those who use the N word is unjust.

And Im glad you made this post... The "if indeed racism is something you truly oppose" comment hits home for what I'm saying... I dont reword things to make them PC, but I BET that at least one person that read my post stating how unjust and unfair things are and instantly branded me a racist.... All I want is for people to be aware of things as they are.... Things are so ANTI white these days its scary.... Yes I see the worst end of it, yes I see the anti-middle class world we have now from the unluckiest part of it, but when your family can barely pay its insane medical bills and keep food on the table you wonder why people are being fired because they used a word that *SHOULD* have no meaning to anyone born after about 1970.

We need to forgive and forget.... And NOT forget that many in this country are getting screwed by the system its-self. My parents will die young because of this sickening system and I will probably never know what anything more than a lower middle class lifestyle is.... Why? Because I'm in the majority I was ignored.... Thats how I look at it. NO discrimination should be allowed, including the crap that gives benefits to ANY specific group of people.

Just my two cents....

[Rizash]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

When it comes to blacks, many grew up in times where they had separate water fountains and bathrooms. It was only a few years ago they hung black men for dating white women - there are still men and women who lost loved ones to various hate groups.



Tie that to the fact that sure, many laws have been passed to equal the playing field, BUT how many black presidents have you seen? How many black senators? How many blacks are CEO's of fortune 500 companies? More importantly, how many blacks are in prison (Percentagewise)? How many blacks live in high-crime areas?

Sure, the laws NOW might be more fair, but with all the recent history from the past generations accompanied by the fact those new laws still have yet to fix the disproportionate amass of wealth and power in the country, many minorities are still very angry.

Also, on the subject of the 'private' conversation, once again, if it was recorded, it wasn't private. Ask any attorney - if there is a third party there, it's not a private conversation.

Furthermore, in America, you no longer have the privilege of private conversation. The government gave itself the right to listen in on your calls, record conversations between you and your lawyer, read your mail, and bug your churches. Don't think anyone can have a 'private' conversation anymore, from a legal standpoint. Accompanied by the fact that the age of camera phones and CCTV now in full swing, don't think your safe anywhere at anytime.

Yes, racist crime does, and *ALWAYS* will happen, get over it and stop using that as leverage to censor and discriminate.

Blacks in power, blacks in money, this that or the other thing.... You havent given it enough time. The wrongs of previous generations will take a LONG time to fix. It will take one to two more full generations of blacks who TRULY want to succeed by going to college etc... to make a dent and take this stigma away. I am actually surprised by this fact as there are so many minority scholarships available and it is slightly easier for minorities to get into good schools that we dont see more upper class/highly influential minorities, but this will come.... I assume part of it is that since colleges have quotas about how many minorities they have to let in -- and there are not enough to take those roles -- that otherwise great students arent pressed as hard/arent focused on enough to get into a position to succeed. NEVER expect a percentage in power or in money over the percentage of population, it doesnt make sense. I'm not sure how much of this is racial stereotype or whatever this is, but there is a very strong image that minorities in big cities dont care about education and power as much as they do easy money and their image.... That is, at least in the media there is MUCH more time spent on stories like Michael Vick or other black sports stars than there is on how few minorities are going to college, or how many minority neighborhoods have horrible college graduation rates, etc.... This needs to be addressed. Until people realize they can change things/things are NOT how they should be, they wont change them! Also! If you're white and you've ever driven through one of those high crime minority neighborhoods you probably have no clue just how OLD SCHOOL RACIST the rough neighborhood minorities are. Just within my family there is a case of racism based sexual assault because one of my family members drove through the wrong part of a decent size city.... I've had stuff thrown at my car because I was in "their turf". There are so many places I would *NEVER* drive at night unless physically threatened its SCARY. The bottom line is this.... You cant say you're HELPING fight racism by stamping out a word that *COULD* mean nothing in ONE GENERATION when you're harboring future racists in your own back yard. These people are being let down and we *ALL* need to find ways to help break the tension there.....

As for the private conversation bit... it was a private conversation, there was no third party.... It was saved to by voicemail.... Again, if dog wanted to he could EASILY sue his son for defamation, etc, etc....

And yes, you have the RIGHT to a private conversation.... Despite the fact G W Bush wants to take that away in his Soviet-Style wiretap plans... you have the RIGHT to say what you want in this country, you have the right to privacy and you have the right to have your own damn points of view. They arent all guaranteed, but they are all there. TECHNICALLY the gov. STILL cannot wire tap you or eves drop on you without a REASON. Although even before when it LEGALLY required a warrant many times this was ignored.... So now that is just a technically I really dont know what will happen.


Bottom line is we need to re-think this.... We need *PEACE* among the races before we will ever get an end to discrimination.... The bottom line is the more the majority is threatened by the minority the more the majority will BECOME anti minority.... If there was a way to just STOP racism at will, some people wouldnt... we need to ignore those idiots and focus on the people that arent forever lost to racism.... Stop making it NEAR law to sweep it under the rug and start embracing the people who are willing to TRY to change, or at least willing to admit they arent capable of accepting people equally.... Otherwise within decades there WILL be hatred on all new levels... Trust me this stuff CANT build up forever without blowing up.

[Rizash]

FYI: If you wonder why I am so annoyed about something like this.... Its because I take a stand for equality but in doing so I fear oppression. If ANYONE out there is offended by what I have said in any way... PLEASE let me know and I'll apologize as best I can.... All my life I have tried to find people who are from different walks of life and tried to accept them as friends. I am NOT from the deep south where racism still flourishes, I am NOT from a big city where racism still is a major problem, and I am not the type of person who judges people by what I hear....

I, however, am in a vacuum as far as minority point of view.... I have never really had a chance to make many minority friends so not only is my ability to be politically correct lessened, but my knowledge of other cultures is VERY limited. I have no clue what its like to be a minority... I only know the opposite end of the spectrum... I know how it feels to face the back-lash of of a culture that was oppressed and has every right to feel like its back is to the wall.

If you havent figured it out yet... I actually fear oppression more than anything in my life. I've literally lost myself to society in an attempt to NOT stand out. I hate it... everything that I am, that I could be I have lost because I wasnt willing to show the world what I am. And to see so many peoples lives ruined because of who they are... instead of simply having society help straighten out their problems makes me sick. I'm sick of problems being forced out of view for fear of rejection and then when it is profitable for someone else to have those problems forced into public view, its just wrong.

*shrugs* My *LAST* thought on this subject (I'm sorry for being so outspoken in this topic, it probably makes me look bad) I ask a simple question.... If all the effort that went into minority advancement instead went into programs that encouraged interaction between *ALL* people of all walks of life, how much better would our society be?

I've never really had any minority friends for any length of time, and I dont want things to stay that way.... There are very few places adults socialize where they arent just looking for love, or hanging out with current friends.... There are even fewer places where people of all races, all walks of life, no matter how unique or different they may seem are welcome.... I think someone needs to find/create a list of places where people of all walks of life are accepted as equals, friends, or family. We are all human, after all.

-- Despite the fact I seem very one sided sometimes.... I accept the horrors we have done over the years as simply a down side to being human.... I am willing to put all wrongdoings in our past, and call it a flaw of being human.... I think if everyone could just let what happened be, and start over in the present... we would have a much better world.

Take care guys
-Riz

[Delkaetre]

I am
- white
- female
- middle-class
This would put me into a group which makes it hard to discriminate against, yes? Not quite so, I'm afraid. I'm Northern Irish. I don't go anywhere without someone making jokes about bombing train stations or asking if I'm Catholic or Protestant. It's really... it's just really tired by now. I'm also a goth, and get stupid jokes about killing babies made at my expense, and assumptions that I'm a satanist, etc. I'm also a redhead, which meant no end of bloody bullying about it. I'm also bisexual, and get stupid comments about that. Many of my friends are gay or trans, and when I travel with them we tolerate no end of crap over their gender identity.
There are types of discrimination against everyone. There's no way of avoiding it. But if the people who made the jokes that annoy me only made them in private and took great care not to let their opinions influence their dealings with the groups I belong to, why would I care? I wouldn't hear. If someone brought them out in public for making those comments, I'd be enraged about the intrusion on their privacy, not about the comments they made about my appearance/heritage/sexuality.
Dog may not have been a programme people here enjoyed, and may not have been a particularly good man. But that the programme's been dropped, not on its own lack of merit but on a silly little charge made solely because of Dog's personal opinions, which he carefully kept out of the show? That suggests that something's gone wrong.

CptSternn- Hey there, I'm Irish too. My mother's from Tipperary and my father (may he rest in peace) was from Newry- a deeply disputed bit of territory with IRA and Sinn Fein connections. Fenian is a word you can use within your own community, or in a private conversation with others (should you be that way inclined). It's not to be bandied about, no matter how much pride you have in it, because to do so is to create double standards. "What's good for one group is forbidden for another", and so on. This is a dangerous thing, and I'd hope that a relatively educated man from Ireland- for f'k's sake, Ireland- would understand just how dangerous double standards are. That you seem to feel that it's all-right to create double standards over words such as fenian and n*gg*r does not reflect well on your grasp of reality.

Delkaetre has a grade A in Politics at A-Level, including high marks in two modules on Ireland and disputes therein. She is currently studying Politics with Human Rights at university, and is thus reasonably well equipped to make statements such as those above.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Delkaetre

Dog may not have been a programme people here enjoyed, and may not have been a particularly good man. But that the programme's been dropped, not on its own lack of merit but on a silly little charge made solely because of Dog's personal opinions, which he carefully kept out of the show? That suggests that something's gone wrong.

It's not 'a silly little charge'. Had dog been refering to anyone in West Belfast and repeatedly used the phrase 'fenian bastard' would you not take issue with that?

CptSternn- Hey there, I'm Irish too. My mother's from Tipperary and my father (may he rest in peace) was from Newry- a deeply disputed bit of territory with IRA and Sinn Fein connections.

Newry is a black hole.

Fenian is a word you can use within your own community, or in a private conversation with others (should you be that way inclined). It's not to be bandied about, no matter how much pride you have in it, because to do so is to create double standards. "What's good for one group is forbidden for another", and so on. This is a dangerous thing, and I'd hope that a relatively educated man from Ireland- for f'k's sake, Ireland- would understand just how dangerous double standards are. That you seem to feel that it's all-right to create double standards over words such as fenian and n*gg*r does not reflect well on your grasp of reality.

Your comments there contridict themselves. You being by saying 'its a word you can use in your own community' then end with 'using these words create double standards'.

Pick a side.

More importantly, I will reiterate my previous post - it's perfectly fine for someone who is part of the group to make references to the group. It is not fine for persons outside the group that use the various phrases as a tool of oppression to use said phrases.

I was at lunch last week with Gerry Adams and Martin Ferris. Both gave brilliant speeches about republicanism in the 21st century. Both made references to Fenians, and our contributions to our own history. We can do that. It's our word, it describes who and what we are in our terms. The use of it by those who want to turn it into a weapon of oppression is what I take issue with.

In this case, 'dog' was not using words to help anyone, he was using words to demoralise, browbeat, and offend. He had no right to invoke such words with such charged meanings if he was merely trying to convey his dislike for one person. By using these charged words, he belittles everyone in which embodies these words.

WE can use these words when describing ourselves. Others can't. It doesn't create a double standard - these words bring up feelings from inside. Whether they are intended to bring up feelings of comradeship or if they are intended to chastise a nation of people all depends on who uses them and how.

'Dog' knew what he was saying, which is why he said it. If he didn't know, he certainly should have. He has never behaved in such a manner on camera. Why then when out of the spotlight does he behave in such a way? Why then did he apologise so quickly? The simple fact of the matter is he meant these words in the way they were said - he is not some innocent person who is being called a racist because he made a social faux pas - he used these emotionally charged words in a racist slur in efforts to put down a person he did not like.

That is racist, and that is racism.

Insults are the last bastion of a weak mind. First thing you learn in proper debate classes. Racial slurs are what the weakest of the weak use when they know they have nothing else of value, or any other good insults to use.

They represent the lowest of the low.

I don't think this man, especially with his 'high-and'mighty' attitude he has on the show should be given a 'pass' on his behaviour just because he is a celeb. He has even more obligations to the public to not engage in such behaviour.

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Your comments there contridict themselves. You being by saying 'its a word you can use in your own community' then end with 'using these words create double standards'.

Mmmm... maybe you missed the point in her post. She said it's one thing to use it behind closed doors, so to speak, but not to wear it as a badge on your chest for the rest of the world, then decry it as an insult when others refer to you as such.

It would be like an African American male going around referring to himself and others (of various races) as a, "N*gga/N*gger," as though it's an interchangeable noun with comradery. Then to have one of his Caucasian male friends use it in reference to him in the same context. Suddenly it's racism because of the color of his skin? What if it was an Asian male saying that? Or better yet, an Arab male?

You basically just reiterated the entire point of it being a double standard to excuse and redefine racism based on the source alone rather than pure context. In doing so, you're counter points are so full of holes you might as well just call it swiss cheese and eat your own words.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I was at lunch last week with Gerry Adams and Martin Ferris.

As a bus boy?

[Delkaetre]

Had he been in Belfast and used the term 'fenian bastard', I would not have given two shits as long as he'd kept it private. He's been careful not to broadcast his beliefs. Making it okay to demonise someone for their feelings whenever they've been careful not to let those feelings become public or influence their work suggests a whole world of Orwellian rubbish getting dangerously close to reality. I may not like the sentiments he expressed, I may not agree with them, but their his statements, made in privacy and with no intention of broadcasting or publicising them. Should we all self-censor in our own homes when we should have privacy, just in case someone hears and takes umbrage?
I did not at any point suggest that he be given a pass just because he's a 'celeb'. I have an immense distate for celebrities. But I also have a great respect for the right to privacy, even of celebrities. He was not using his fame to espouse his views- indeed, he took great care not to. Had he used his fame to promote racism, then I would side with you on this debate.
You point out that Dog never behaved in a racist manner when the eye was on him, has apologised for his words even though they were uttered in privacy and anger. I don't see what your continuing problem is. All humans utter insults in anger, even insults which are racist, sectarian, sexist, etc. What's said in anger is often NOT meant on reflection. Goodness knows, if I meant every word I had in arguments with my parents I'd have been locked up for being a dangerous little sociopath. He's been careful not to set a bad example to any of his viewers, has apologised for his words and made it clear that no one should follow his example. I am not justifying his use of the word n*gg*r, I am arguing against the reaction to it, given the context of it. It would be very nice if humankind didn't feel the need to segregate and insult in this manner, but while humanity continues as it does, it could do worse than to keep its bias private and apologise for offence in the way Dog has.
I think that Magu has explained my standpoint on double standards fairly well, so I need not reiterate those points.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Delkaetre

I may not like the sentiments he expressed, I may not agree with them, but their his statements, made in privacy and with no intention of broadcasting or publicising them. Should we all self-censor in our own homes when we should have privacy, just in case someone hears and takes umbrage?

You talk of 'censoring' our language in private, and equate it to Orwellian measures. Is it not illegal to go into a movie cinema and scream FIRE! Is it not illegal to ring the fire brigade and tell them there is an emergency that does not exist? Does this mean we are living under Orewellian overlords because we have been 'forced' to not say these things?

Society puts limits on speech all the time, for good reason, and people do not complain because they know they are needed. Banning 'hate speech', as it is in this case is no different than the aforementioned examples. Words that are intentionally meant to stir up mental images of the past, images of murder, death, and oppression all for the sake of belittling a minority - banning such words and/or phrases when used in such a manner is not Orwellian by any strech, but is no different than the laws which govern the language you can use in the court room. Try calling a judge a bastard or c.unt next time your there and see if you don't get banged up under statues which govern what you can and can't say to court officials and law enforcement officers.

I also have a great respect for the right to privacy, even of celebrities. He was not using his fame to espouse his views- indeed, he took great care not to. Had he used his fame to promote racism, then I would side with you on this debate.
You point out that Dog never behaved in a racist manner when the eye was on him, has apologised for his words even though they were uttered in privacy and anger.

Again with the 'privacy'. First off a few words on privacy. Legally, you can only say there is privacy when you have a legal claim that can establish a reasonable person felt there would be a certain level or expectation of privacy. Screaming into a mobile phone in public by no means constitutes privacy. Furthermore, the simple fact this conversation was recorded and even distributed to the mass media furthers the fact that there was not even one iota of privacy there, real or implied.

I don't see what your continuing problem is. All humans utter insults in anger, even insults which are racist, sectarian, sexist, etc. What's said in anger is often NOT meant on reflection.

Does it matter if he says it in private or not? Thats the aqgument you are making. Saying it's ok to use such language in private, but at the same time saying it's ok to limit it in public? The simple fact of the matter is, it's not ok to use anywhere. Not because of 'privacy' or any Orwellian conspiracy, it's what those words mean. They are emotionally charged words, created with one goal - to keep down the people they supposedly embody. The 'N' word - created to describe black slaves, a derogatory statement which is the manifestation of decades of abuse, murder, mistreatment, and abuse. Why would anyone even in private use that word to describe another human being unless they themselves harbour feelings which themselves are racist. If you know what the word means, AND don't use it in public, then obviously you understand the conentation of using such language. It doesn't give you a free pass to be racist behind closed doors. If your using such langauge, then its safe to say you are at least a bit racist and the fact your hiding such language shows you know it's wrong.

Goodness knows, if I meant every word I had in arguments with my parents I'd have been locked up for being a dangerous little sociopath. He's been careful not to set a bad example to any of his viewers, has apologised for his words and made it clear that no one should follow his example. I am not justifying his use of the word n*gg*r, I am arguing against the reaction to it, given the context of it.

Whats even more important in this case is his show. If the president or prime minister of your country came out and used such language, would you not be offended? Do you not think minorities in said countries would not take issue? Do you honestly think a world leader who would use such words could be trusted to represent those minorities equaly while he or she is in power? The same standard exists here. This man 'hunts' suspects - and if you haven't watched the show, it's mostly minorities, a large group of non-whites.

A man hunting down and in many cases beating or using pepper spray on minorities - which is the basis of his show. If it really is about justice, thats one thing. If you work into the mix that same man has deep rooted issues with minorities to begin with and has made not only a living out of hunting down minorities, but televising the hunting and beating of minorities, well, thats a whole new can of worms.

It was best said by my professor years ago who taught us tort law. Morality vs. ethics. Ethics are the practices which you engage in when society is watching. Morals are the same practices, but are displayed in private.

When judging a person in a case like this, some people might argue ethically he was right because his actions were intended to be in private (although as I stated, he really had no expectation of privacy here). Therefore, your arguing ethically, he was in the right. Problem is, society doesn't just judge you on your ethics, especially when your a celeb. Morality also plays a big part. In this case, 'dog' appears to be morally bankrupt, at least when it comes to respecting the rights of minorities.