Court Battle Begins For Skinhead Parents

[Saya]

Disturbing evidence is coming out at a child welfare case in Winnipeg on Monday, where the parents of two children are accused of teaching them that black people and other minorities deserve to die.

In a court hearing scheduled to run all week, Manitoba Child and Family Services is applying for guardianship of a girl and boy who were seized from their home last year after the girl showed up at her elementary school with symbols used by white supremacists drawn on her body.

In March 2008, the girl, then seven, went to school with a swastika on her arm. The teacher scrubbed it off in the afternoon but the girl showed up again the next day with another one, along with other white supremacist symbols drawn on her body.

Child and Family Services case workers were alerted and went to the family's apartment, where they found neo-Nazi symbols and flags, and took custody of the couple's two-year-old son. The daughter was picked up by family services at her school.

The government agency is worried about the "psychological impact upon the children stemming from the [parents'] acute hatred for other people," according to an affidavit filed by the lead social worker in the case.

The judge presiding over the hearing will be receiving testimony and other submissions from child welfare officials and lawyers this week. None can be identified to protect the identities of the children.
Girl well versed in hate propaganda: social worker

On Monday, the social worker that interviewed the girl said she was well versed in racist and hateful propaganda.

She said the swastika symbol meant "heil Hitler" and she spoke about people of other races and how they should all be dead because this is a white man's world, the social worker testified.

The girl also provided graphic suggestions of how to kill people, the social worker said.

During their interview, the girl also told the social worker that she watched skinhead videos on the internet with her parents and knew that her parents belonged to a skinhead website. She also knew their password-protected log-ins, which gave her full access.

The social worker also told the court the little girl said to her, near the end of the interview, "You know what? I'm not going to tell my mom and dad that I spoke to you, because if I do, the whole white supremacist society will be after you."
Parents separated, each seeking custody

Child welfare officials are scheduled to testify all week. Then the hearing will break and resume in June, when the lawyers for the parents will make their arguments at the end of that month.

The parents no longer live together and each has asked for custody of the children.

The girl's stepfather has launched a constitutional complaint, saying social workers violated his freedom of expression, religion and association by apprehending the children.

The mother is not living in Manitoba anymore and wasn't in court. Her lawyer's request for an adjournment Monday morning was rejected.

The case has garnered international attention and sparked debate over how far parents can go to instill beliefs in their children — and how far the government should go to protect children from those beliefs.

In his opening statement, the lawyer for Child and Family Services said this is not a case about a family's political views. He argued it is a child protection case involving drug and alcohol abuse, criminal behaviour, domestic violence, and mental health concerns.

He said it also involves a girl who showed up at school "painted up in permanent ink like a billboard."
Girl told not to have non-white friends: affidavit

According to an affidavit filed by the lead social worker in the case, the girl has said she was told by her mother not to have any non-white friends or she would not have a mother anymore, according to the document.

The children's mother has not yet responded to the allegations in court documents. In an interview last year with The Canadian Press, she denied being a neo-Nazi and called herself simply a "proud Scottish chick."

She defended the Nazi swastika, saying it stems from an ancient symbol for prosperity.

The allegations of racism are not the only concern for child welfare workers. The couple is also accused of failing to provide adequate care for their kids.

The girl missed many days of school because her parents wanted to sleep in, and frequently had to remind her stepfather to change her brother's diaper, according to the social worker's affidavit. The boy's language development is delayed, the worker wrote.

The father denies those accusations as well.

"In my opinion, both [the mother] and I were excellent parents," he wrote in the affidavit.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...-winnipeg.html

[PortraitOfSanity]

In related news, the 2 non-white people currently living in Winnipeg are immensely relieved.

[Heretic]

Hmm...here we go again with where to draw the line when competing rights are involved.

What if this kid had come to school with crosses and stigmata drawn on her body, talking about how all sinners deserve to burn in hell? Would this have precipitated the same sort of reaction by the authorities?

On the other hand, at what point should a parents beliefs be considered a danger to the growth and development of a child? do we wait until they start blowing up Federal buildings or assassinating judges and doctors before we hold them responsible for what they teach their children?

I'm all about free speech and a parent's right to raise their children however they see fit, but turning your kid into a potentially violent racist? At that point, I can see the case for the parent's actions being considered a public hazard and some sort of action being taken, but it's still a sticky thing to consider.


- Heretic


FYI - in the spirit of full disclosure, I happen to be an African American (or Afro-American, or Black person, or whatever the trendy and proper phrase happens to be this week). This kind of thing makes me all kinds of sick, but so does the restriction of constitutionally guaranteed freedoms. This is what makes this issue so complex from my perspective.

[Tam Li Hua]

If the parents had actually been taking good care of the children, then perhaps I could see a case for the beliefs thing. However, since both are accused of child abuse, neglect, and endangerment, I can't really say I have much sympathy for them.

That being said, I think when your mom and dad are telling you that it's okay to kill another person just because of their skin color, then that's when a line has been crossed. :/

[Beneath the Shadows]

If the parents are neglectful, then that is what the court case should be about. The racism aspect should be completely ignored. If they want to raise their kids to be white supremacists, let them. I don't agree with that philosophy, but there are others who don't agree with my philosophies, and I don't want them telling me how I should be raising my children. The line should only be drawn when children are being encouraged to do violent acts.

[Tam Li Hua]

Beneath the Shadows: I tend to agree...to a point. If the parents don't want their kids to have black friends, then that's one thing. But if they are teaching their kids that it's okay to kill those kids [or really, hurt them in -any- way], then that could lead to a -lot- of trouble for those kids.

I'm okay if someone disagrees with me, but I'm -not- okay with them deciding to kill me for my skin color/beliefs/whatever.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Well, killing someone would constitute a violent act, and as I said in my last post, that is where the line should be drawn.

[Godslayer Jillian]

The hell! Even telling her to not have black friends is wrong!

This is not a "I'm your mother and know what's best for you" scenario. By their own admission it's "Do not mix with inferior races or you're not my daughter."

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

The hell! Even telling her to not have black friends is wrong!

I completely agree. Unfortunately, it's not illegal to tell one's child that [though I have to wonder if it's abusive in some way..].

[Godslayer Jillian]

Yeah but that's where one can argue for the case of psychological and social damage to the child which is proven in more than one instant.

[Tam Li Hua]

Jillian: Good point.

[Felreaper]

Interesting thing while we're still on the idea of racism. The bus I ride to and from school recently got a new driver. This bus driver has had a history of racism on all of the buses that he's ever driven. In fact, the last bus he was on, he had the white kids completely separated from those of all other races. He was moved from that bus and disappeared for some time, until now when he became the bus driver for my bus. Today was his first full day driving, and his racist tendencies have already shown through. On the way back from school, he pulled over and took two kids, an Asian and a black one, and moved them to their own seat at the front of the bus. If this continues, I plan to confront him, and if that fails, go to the office and report him. I say I'm going to confront him first because my school's administrative system SUCKS. Anyway, just thought I'd bring that up.

[zerademark]

She said the swastika symbol meant "heil Hitler" and she spoke about people of other races and how they should all be dead because this is a white man's world, the social worker testified

In fact the Swastika doesn't mean that. This symbol is the illustration of how the universe spinns or better said keeps in balance, according to the Hindu. I have no idea how the hell Hitler got his hands on this sacred symbol and what went on in his mind to abuse it this way.

-Zerachiel de Mark-

[zerademark]

I am really astonish sometimes how humans have the habit of upgrading themself. Even in my country, Suriname, there are people who think that their race is superior then others. And no, I'm not talking about white/ black. Im talking about black/black (my ancestors are better then yourse, becuase atleast had the guts to run away from the plantage and not be slaves anymore. While you stayed there and keept being a slave from the white men)
Hindustan/Hindustan (I am better than you because I have whiter skin color) etc etc.

Originally Posted by Heretic

What if this kid had come to school with crosses and stigmata drawn on her body, talking about how all sinners deserve to burn in hell? Would this have precipitated the same sort of reaction by the authorities?

Probable not, eventhough they are closely related. The fact of racism isn't really about race supremacist or so, its about dominance. People want to be the dominant species, and love to show it off. That even spread into religion. Just listen to the way how Christian preach. And Muslim, and Jews. Its all about how their religion is the only true religion and how it will ultimaly bring salvation to those with faith while the sinners will burn in hell. Dominance.

Enough ranting now.

Salaam Walekum,

-Zerachiel de Mark-

[PortraitOfSanity]

Originally Posted by zerademark

In fact the Swastika doesn't mean that. This symbol is the illustration of how the universe spinns or better said keeps in balance, according to the Hindu. I have no idea how the hell Hitler got his hands on this sacred symbol and what went on in his mind to abuse it this way.

-Zerachiel de Mark-

This thread is about skinheads, so obviously, the Nazi meaning is what's being called into question here. I assume most people know that it's originally a Hindu symbol, so don't drag the thread off-topic by stating something so completely irrelevant.

[zerademark]

My apology Mr Sanity.
My intention was first clear up what the cross symbol originated from and then complain and wonder how the hell Hittler got it. My computer acted weird and I accidently posted my comment on two different posts.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

I really wish people would stop using the term skinhead to describe white supremacy groups. You know there are many RACIALLY TOLERANT SKIN HEADS, right?

[Pineapple_Juice]

Well, I guess that's like the Swastika, in a way.

It could be something else, but what it stands for in the general public now is something completely different. D'you get what I'm saying?

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

That people get connotations and personal feelings confused with real facts?

[Anima_Severem]

I'm more worried for the sake of the kid. If that was happening here in the US, that poor little girl would likely have been the target of a lot of bullying and physical and psychological abuse.

[Pineapple_Juice]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

That people get connotations and personal feelings confused with real facts?

Basically.