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| Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right."
-H.L. Menken |
12-10-2008, 07:01 PM
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#226
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 32
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hades
Ah, you're one of "those people"  well....... ok i don't remember what i said, let me re-read it.
Aah, yes.
Well, i pointed out one way of looking at abortion. There are many ways. I picked the one i relate to personally, of course, and you seemingly did the same  the argument of "what is more valuable" still stands!
I do agree with you on the second paragraph, it's the (MUCH) lesser evil. Well, the reason why people love babies so much in the first place is because of this egotistic desire to live on, even through someone else... or to know that your gene-pool created something cool.
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Babies are loved to the point of fetishism because they satisfy human ego. They make people feel needed and important, they make people feel superior by having to take care of an entire life form, they make people happy because they get to see a reproduction of their narcissistic selves, and they get something to show off like some form of prize or invention for the next two decades.
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12-10-2008, 07:44 PM
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#227
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: the concrete and steel beehive of Southern California
Posts: 7,449
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Originally Posted by Darth Nihilus
Babies are loved to the point of fetishism because they satisfy human ego. They make people feel needed and important, they make people feel superior by having to take care of an entire life form, they make people happy because they get to see a reproduction of their narcissistic selves, and they get something to show off like some form of prize or invention for the next two decades.
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I disagree. I think that babies are loved because natural selection has evolved us and other creatures to protect the young. Does a lemur have a narcissistic desire for immortality? No, it is instinctive for it to care for its young. The same with people.
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12-11-2008, 02:22 AM
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#228
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,921
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HumanePain
Does a lemur have a narcissistic desire for immortality? No, it is instinctive for it to care for its young. The same with people.
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Hmm... Not quite the same.
Ours are more developed.
There was an experiment on how tiger take care its youngling. Those scientists add a young black panther in a group and the mother DID take care of that panther, too.
But, hey... it's off-topic. 
__________________
"Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian."
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12-11-2008, 03:49 AM
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#229
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Well we did evolve from animals $hade, and animals we still are, and the parent-child love is crucial for the survival of the species, since our young take so long to grow, and are dependant on their parents for that time. A tiger can have many litters in her life time, but there's only so many a human can have, right now in Canada the average is one or two children per family. Granted thats not how it always was, but compared to other animals we don't breed like rabbits. So I agree with Humane, its just natural.
Besides, people adopt babies, don't they?
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12-11-2008, 05:12 AM
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#230
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,921
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Mm.. I agree , too.
It's pure instinct.
__________________
"Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian."
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12-11-2008, 05:50 AM
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#231
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: An imaginary world
Posts: 103
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Yes, Darth, that too. Well, guess that's how we've developed lol. To each species their own tradition, i guess.
I don't know, Humane, humans are probably too attached to their offspring, i mean a child would technically be able to take care of itself from some 13 years onward, but we take care of it sometimes way past the deadline, haha. That's not to say i'm against it i love visiting home and being pampered and shit. xD
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12-11-2008, 09:29 AM
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#232
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 27
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Suggesting that abortion is murder is the same as suggesting condoms is a form of murder.
seriously, the world is overpopulated as it is.
Whats worse? Bringing unwanted children into a world of pain or just terminating them and saving them from a life of suffering?
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12-11-2008, 12:48 PM
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#233
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Earth.
Posts: 8,001
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Scrumptious Bitch
Suggesting that abortion is murder is the same as suggesting condoms is a form of murder.
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That was stupid.
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12-11-2008, 10:57 PM
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#234
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: elsewhere
Posts: 2,015
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Scrumptious Bitch
Whats worse? Bringing unwanted children into a world of pain or just terminating them and saving them from a life of suffering?
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That's difficult to say. They might end up, for whatever reason, leading a very happy life. And they might not end up being unwanted. Fortunes change, minds change, circumstances change. Nothing is certain.
I don't like either side of that argument. Just like I don't like the argument "But they could grow up to become great humanitarian/great benevolent leader/invent [insert miraculous cure/device here]!" Well, they could also grow up to be a serial killer, or Stalin 2.0, or to participate in some other form of douchebaggery. You really don't know.
And even the not knowing argument works both ways.
__________________
Twinkle, twinkle, little bat
How I wonder where you're at.
Up above the world you fly
Like a tea-tray in the sky.
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12-12-2008, 06:25 AM
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#235
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,921
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__________________
"Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian."
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12-17-2008, 06:27 PM
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#236
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 273
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Originally Posted by AshtrayKitten
No two ways about. In order for the pro-choice argument to be taken seriously by an irrational, emotional public, it must omit this crucial reality.
Although a mass of non-sentient cells gestating in the womb is still human, one can feel less guilty about putting it to death and erasing its possible future than they can about an infant already born. It doesn't make it not murder simply because your victim cannot speak, hear, see or think.
"When does life begin?" is a misleading question. The answer that faux debate is actually searching for is, "when is a person formed?"
The moment a fetus is conceived, it consists of living tissue belonging to what will eventually become a person. It is alive and human.
A woman has every right to alter her body how she sees fit, including altering it to not be pregnant any longer. She does so, however, at the cost of a human life. Indeed, people who claim they value human life, but are fine with abortion, only value it conditionally.
The day that medical science figures out how to keep a fetus alive outside of the womb is the day the false dichotomy of choice vs. life will disappear.
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By this theory, it is also murder to not get pregnant at every available chance, for by willfully remaining non-pregnant you are condemming another unconcieved child to death.
Now sing it with me, folks...
Eeevery sperm is sacred,
every sperm is great!
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate!
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12-17-2008, 06:30 PM
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#237
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
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Not aborting something that will kill your life is also quite murderous in a weird way.
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12-17-2008, 07:05 PM
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#238
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: In your head
Posts: 273
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I was once pro-life to a vicious extent, I now separate myself from the matter...
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12-17-2008, 10:47 PM
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#239
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 32
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HumanePain
I disagree. I think that babies are loved because natural selection has evolved us and other creatures to protect the young. Does a lemur have a narcissistic desire for immortality? No, it is instinctive for it to care for its young. The same with people.
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Lemurs also don't spend millions of dollars on stupid shit for the babies and talk to everyone constantly about how their barely sentient kid is the next Mozart or how much they look like their mom. We protect our kids from instinct, we treat them like accessories and fetish products out of narcissism.
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12-18-2008, 05:57 AM
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#240
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 123
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On the subject of abortion we need to consider the fact that we are heavily over populated and its getting worse. And every person born means less food, water, and shelter for others. Be grateful that if a child is aborted, whoever did it has contributed to ensuring that there are resources available for future generations. In saying this i myself dont really agree with abortion, but i dont object to it either. It just happens.
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12-18-2008, 10:09 AM
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#241
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Earth.
Posts: 8,001
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vivi
On the subject of abortion we need to consider the fact that we are heavily over populated and its getting worse. And every person born means less food, water, and shelter for others.
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No, it doesn't.
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12-18-2008, 01:56 PM
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#242
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Darth Nihilus
Lemurs also don't spend millions of dollars on stupid shit for the babies and talk to everyone constantly about how their barely sentient kid is the next Mozart or how much they look like their mom. We protect our kids from instinct, we treat them like accessories and fetish products out of narcissism.
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Millions? You know people who spend millions on their babies?
I have seen some spoiled kids, but not that bad. And usually the "Oh, she has her mothers eyes!" Is doting, said while melting with cuteness overload.
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12-18-2008, 02:40 PM
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#243
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,670
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I'm pro choice (the woman's choice, our opinion doesn't matter, it's you having a 10 pound hunk of meat coming out of you), and also in favor of killing babies.
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12-18-2008, 04:58 PM
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#244
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: East Haven, CT
Posts: 436
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renatus
While the fetus is merely wasted on health products to fuel the lives of those who live for their looks.
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umm... what health products use fetuses??? *shudder*
People's lack of value for life in whatever form just disgusts me. I am pro choice, but I also see abortion as a terrible terrible thing, and I find it revolting how so many people have such a casual attitude toward it. While no laws should restrict a woman's right to choose, I wish some woman wouldn't be so thoughtless in their choices. And the only thing I find more distressing then psychotically pro-life men, is men who don't give a shit either way because it's not their problem. Ugh, how uncaring people as a whole are about the harm they do, the destruction they cause, is very disheartening to me.
__________________
Help us to be the always hopeful
Gardeners of the spirit
Who know that without darkness
Nothing comes to birth
As without light
Nothing flowers
-May Sarton
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12-18-2008, 06:01 PM
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#245
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NoVA
Posts: 5,290
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by prophecyofdoom
umm... what health products use fetuses???
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Some vaccines, for one.
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12-18-2008, 09:22 PM
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#246
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 32
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Saya
Millions? You know people who spend millions on their babies?
I have seen some spoiled kids, but not that bad. And usually the "Oh, she has her mothers eyes!" Is doting, said while melting with cuteness overload.
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Someone once totaled the cost of parenthood, it was some ridiculous figure like 50 million or some such.
That doting scene has caused me to gag more than once.
"Oh doesn't she have her father's eyes!"
My response to the woman was, "Dear lord I pray she doesn't get her mother's brains."
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12-18-2008, 09:37 PM
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#247
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Darth Nihilus
Someone once totaled the cost of parenthood, it was some ridiculous figure like 50 million or some such.
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No it isn't.
http://www.babycenter.com/cost-of-ra...ild-calculator
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
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Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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12-18-2008, 10:49 PM
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#248
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 32
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
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Thank you for the link. It seems I had grossly over-estimated the costs. Apologies.
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12-19-2008, 02:01 AM
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#249
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 146
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Scrumptious Bitch
seriously, the world is overpopulated as it is.
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A myth. The planet can support billions more people. Overpopulation is convenient reasoning for keeping the developing world down.
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12-19-2008, 08:32 AM
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#250
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,360
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vivi
On the subject of abortion we need to consider the fact that we are heavily over populated and its getting worse. And every person born means less food, water, and shelter for others.
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True.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vivi
In saying this i myself dont really agree with abortion, but i dont object to it either. It just happens.
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No, it doesn't.
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