BBC 'Upwardly Gothic' article

[horrorgirl]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4828230.stm

It mainly focuses on how most of the people in the goth subculture are from the middle class, and go on to have professional careers. I think they are pretty much right. However,back in the 80's in the subculture, most of the people that I knew were from broken homes and had terrible lives one way or another. I would have to say that about 90% of the people I knew from both the goth and punk subcultures were messed up in one way or another. It seems like these days that that isn't much the case. That is one of my theories as to why the subculture has changed so much. There is now a bunch of self proclaimed goths walking around acting like they have a tough life when they in fact have a good one. I think living a hard life gives you a certain perspective on things that others don't have. Sorry for the babble but I'm high on chocolate right now.

[Shi'ark]

I’m a messed up working class boy from broken home, abusive lonely childhood, no education and all that Jazz. But kids in the middle class have problem too. The family having money doesn’t mean these no broken home, abusive lonely childhood, no education and all that Jazz.

I know people from the so called middle and working class, other then who has how much these not much difference. Also why do you have to be messed up to be a Goth anyway?

Please everyone post something at the bottom of the article.

And now I want chocolate.

[horrorgirl]

I know that some people in the middle class have problems.I went to a high school in an upper middle class suburb, however my family was poor. I don't think anybody has to be messed up to be goth. It's just that when I originally got into the subculture everybody WAS messed up. I think there there used to be a connection between having a messed up life and being punk/goth back then. My boyfriend,who used to be a hardcore punk during the same time, has agreed with me on this. That doesn't seem to be as much the case these days. I think that is one of the reasons why I don't have anything in common with the majority of the people in the subculture these days.It has to do with life experience.

[Shi'ark]

Fear enough, it’s a interesting article. I sent them a reply and I wonder if they’re show it.

[Gothic.net]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...20/ngoth20.xml

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1735535,00.html

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/m...icle352580.ece

[Pathogen.]

HORRORGIRL: I grew up in a working-class Black Protestant home. It was for a couple of years in the 1980s [1986-1988] did I live a middle-class lifestyle. As soon as my aunt & uncle palmed me off to my older cousin & lived with him in our first apartment, I was working-class again. I'm still there. And I don't regret it at all. Despite my apparent class, I still became a Goth. in the past 2 decades, the coolest Goths I've ever encountered/known were from the same class-background as me. So the stereotype of Goths [among my Punkrocker friends] being privileged rich or middle-class White kids in black clothes who are sad all the time is straight-up bollocks!

[tenet_2012]

Yay!

Goths go mainstream!

Fuck the fucking media.

[Gothic.net]

Originally Posted by tenet_2012

Yay!

Goths go mainstream!

Fuck the fucking media.

We strongly feel that this is not the time for any sort of 'fuck the media' message.

Some people actually went out on a limb to talk about the truth, based on a well researched study, in an effort to dispell derogatory cultural myths we all have to deal with. We think it's great and we really appreciate the fact that these media people didn't take the false sensationalist stance that we've seen too much of in the past.

[tenet_2012]

Sorry admin.

Will not happen again.

I just thought that the story... I don't know... kind of generalized the gothic subculture, as usual.

[DrenchedInGin]

I have to say although I come from a 'lower class' English family, I've had a happy upbringing and a heap of opportunities. Aside from my Depression, nothing untoward has ever happened to me. I think I was attracted to this lifestyle by the opportunities for creativity and the very individualistic people.

Having said that I do tend to agree with Horrorgirl, back in the 80s most of my friends came from pretty unfortunate backgrounds. I've never pretended to be one of them but I appreciate that it was common for goths back then to have come form a tough background.

If people these days are goths and come from happier backgrounds, lucky them! I certainly appreciate my good fortune.

[Jane13]

I agree with DrenchedInGin... I come from a lower-middle-class family... and I have a really happy life (internally, and in general refering to home life), but some of my friends do not. I know about five people who I wold consider goth (in person), and two of them come from broken homes... I really don't think goth has very much to do with nurture as apposeed to nature, but we've already had a lot of those kinds of threads....

[horrorgirl]

Originally Posted by Pathogen.

HORRORGIRL: I grew up in a working-class Black Protestant home. It was for a couple of years in the 1980s [1986-1988] did I live a middle-class lifestyle. As soon as my aunt & uncle palmed me off to my older cousin & lived with him in our first apartment, I was working-class again. I'm still there. And I don't regret it at all. Despite my apparent class, I still became a Goth. in the past 2 decades, the coolest Goths I've ever encountered/known were from the same class-background as me. So the stereotype of Goths [among my Punkrocker friends] being privileged rich or middle-class White kids in black clothes who are sad all the time is straight-up bollocks!

I grew up on welfare so I,in no way, fit the stereotype. Also, I am thirty-five and have not earned a college degree so there is yet another stereotype that I don't fit. I think people are most comfortable around others who have a similar social/economic backround.I have nothing in common,when it comes to life experience,with people who come from totally happy homes and who didn't have to worry about going to bed hungry at night. Sure, I could be friends with them, but I would not be able to make a deep connection with them.

[Shi'ark]

I have read the articles and still don’t get the class thing, the papers in this country have always had some funny ideas about class. The Guardian, which is an independently and self owned paper that’s kind of left wig, doesn’t mention class so much. The Telegraph, for those ‘of class’, only gos as far as saying “The research found that "bourgeois" goths are a class above other youth cultures and get their kicks from books rather than drugs.” The thing is this, just because someone, like me for example, is from a working class background doesn’t mean a thing.
The media like to think it strange that if Mum and Dad are making less then 20’000 that your be doing well at school and have a liking for the arts and all the other stuff the think fits in to this subculture. But the way things have always looked to me is that ‘Goths’, same as metalers come from all backgrounds. I don’t known what The BBC were talking about.
Ok this gives us a positive look, but do any of us care what others think. Just one more thing: never trust what is written in a British newspaper… well The Guardian’s ok.

[Pathogen.]

Originally Posted by horrorgirl

I grew up on welfare so I,in no way, fit the stereotype. Also, I am thirty-five and have not earned a college degree so there is yet another stereotype that I don't fit. I think people are most comfortable around others who have a similar social/economic backround.I have nothing in common,when it comes to life experience,with people who come from totally happy homes and who didn't have to worry about going to bed hungry at night. Sure, I could be friends with them, but I would not be able to make a deep connection with them.

HORRORGIRL: Same. Those middle-class/rich folks are--at the risk of overstating the obvious--happy because of their privileges & easy access to certain resources compared those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder, like myself. I just turned 38 this month & I'm working on getting a B.A. after possibly 3 more years of college. I once read somewhere that if a person grew up in a certain class, chances are their children might grow up in the same exact class. But as history has shown me time & time again, that's not always the case. My mother has been blue-collar most of her adult life & my little brother has so many jobs under his belt, he managed to have worked his way into middle-class status. He works as a paramedic for the Atlanta fire department & when he's not doing that, he works as a jailhouse guard; when he's not doing that, he has 3 business ventures of his own--car-detailing, landscaping & running a recording studio with a few friends called Outhouse Records. As for me, I'm a full-time college student. I'm Gothic, but not "upwardly Gothic" [whatever the hell that means].

[DarkIce]

I´m just wondering - why should rich people not be allowed to identify themselfs as "goth" ?
Are we picky?

[Wise Child]

Originally Posted by Shi'ark

I’m a messed up working class boy from broken home, abusive lonely childhood, no education and all that Jazz. But kids in the middle class have problem too. The family having money doesn’t mean these no broken home, abusive lonely childhood, no education and all that Jazz...

And now I want chocolate.

Same here, except I'm at university. Thank fuck for student loans...

I never would have gotten to uni if I weren't such a huge reader; reading, English, spelling and that stuff was all I was ever good at. (Plus about the only lesson I cared to go to - truancy is a huge, huge problem in the UK nowadays, far more so than when I was a kid.) For that reason, I hope working class kids continue to turn goth, not just so we can build an army and take over the world, but because I look at a group of ten kids on a street corner and I'm not convinced that two of them can read at their age level, let alone choose to read for fun. It gave me opportunities I never would have had, and stopped the universities from thinking that I'm a thick little pikey because I talk like Kat Slater.

[horrorgirl]

Originally Posted by Pathogen.

HORRORGIRL: Same. Those middle-class/rich folks are--at the risk of overstating the obvious--happy because of their privileges & easy access to certain resources compared those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder, like myself. I just turned 38 this month & I'm working on getting a B.A. after possibly 3 more years of college. I once read somewhere that if a person grew up in a certain class, chances are their children might grow up in the same exact class. But as history has shown me time & time again, that's not always the case. My mother has been blue-collar most of her adult life & my little brother has so many jobs under his belt, he managed to have worked his way into middle-class status. He works as a paramedic for the Atlanta fire department & when he's not doing that, he works as a jailhouse guard; when he's not doing that, he has 3 business ventures of his own--car-detailing, landscaping & running a recording studio with a few friends called Outhouse Records. As for me, I'm a full-time college student. I'm Gothic, but not "upwardly Gothic" [whatever the hell that means].

I'm going to start going to college next year so I am in the same boat. I guess the article kind of cheesed me off because it assumed that all people that have taken part in the gothic subculture come from the same backround, when it is obvious that we haven't. I have never been driven to make a lot of cash. In all honesty it has never mattered to me. As long as I make enough to pay rent, bills,food, and have a little extra to buy the things I want then I'm okay. I think the article made it seem like that all goths are buying into the whole 'you must make a lot of money to be successful in life'. I feel that that point of view is a con.

[Ben Lahnger]

I certainly thought the article was beneficial for the culture and community in general. Especially in light of the fact that it did go some ways towards dispelling popular strereotypes and misconceptions.

I understand the risk involved in taking the inquiries of reporters lightly, as sensationlistic journalism has burned many subcultures before. But nature abhors a vaccuum, and journalism does too.

A friend of mine is a devout, practicing Wiccan. Some time last summer, a warning came out throughout the online Wiccan community that the television program WifeSwap was looking for a Wiccan family to participate. And the alert went out that said no one should participate, as it was just going to be an opportunity for the media to portray the culture in an unflattering, stereotype-reinforcing manner.

So what happened? All the serious practicioners and believers abstained from responding to the shows inquiries, but they certainly found a Wiccan family that fit their needs. The show aired a few Mondays ago, and as I watched it I was stunned by how absolutely looney these people seemed. It was a farce!

This episode did more to reinforce every negative stereotype about Wiccan's than anything I have seen in years. And the show did not have to do any kind of creative editing or manipulation; this family was the lunatic fringe of the Wiccan community!

Now it may be that the show would have sought that kind of family anyway, but since the whole community refused to submit a mainstream representative of what they really practice, we'll never know for sure. And the community can now only mount a feeble protest, as they did not offer to tell their own truth when they had the opportunity.

“For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it.” - Ivan Panin (Russian mathematician 1855-1942)

[horrorgirl]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

I certainly thought the article was beneficial for the culture and community in general. Especially in light of the fact that it did go some ways towards dispelling popular strereotypes and misconceptions.

I understand the risk involved in taking the inquiries of reporters lightly, as sensationlistic journalism has burned many subcultures before. But nature abhors a vaccuum, and journalism does too.

A friend of mine is a devout, practicing Wiccan. Some time last summer, a warning came out throughout the online Wiccan community that the television program WifeSwap was looking for a Wiccan family to participate. And the alert went out that said no one should participate, as it was just going to be an opportunity for the media to portray the culture in an unflattering, stereotype-reinforcing manner.

So what happened? All the serious practicioners and believers abstained from responding to the shows inquiries, but they certainly found a Wiccan family that fit their needs. The show aired a few Mondays ago, and as I watched it I was stunned by how absolutely looney these people seemed. It was a farce!

This episode did more to reinforce every negative stereotype about Wiccan's than anything I have seen in years. And the show did not have to do any kind of creative editing or manipulation; this family was the lunatic fringe of the Wiccan community!

Now it may be that the show would have sought that kind of family anyway, but since the whole community refused to submit a mainstream representative of what they really practice, we'll never know for sure. And the community can now only mount a feeble protest, as they did not offer to tell their own truth when they had the opportunity.

“For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it.” - Ivan Panin (Russian mathematician 1855-1942)

Reality tv shows and talk shows always look for people who are on the lunatic fringe or who can't defend themselves properly. Remember all of those talk shows that would have Mansonites as guests during the late 90's? It was like watching a train wreck.

[Ben Lahnger]

That is well known. I'm just saying that you can't complain later if you keep silent at first.

"If I speak the truth about my beliefs and my practices, and they speak evil of me, shame on them.

But if I say nothing of what I belive or what I stand for, and they speak evil of me, shame on me." - Ben, paraphrasing many great quotes.

[chloegoth]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

So what happened? All the serious practicioners and believers abstained from responding to the shows inquiries, but they certainly found a Wiccan family that fit their needs. The show aired a few Mondays ago, and as I watched it I was stunned by how absolutely looney these people seemed. It was a farce!

This episode did more to reinforce every negative stereotype about Wiccan's than anything I have seen in years. And the show did not have to do any kind of creative editing or manipulation; this family was the lunatic fringe of the Wiccan community!

WifeSwap tends to be even more looney than the fringe; I'm in the SCA, and recently they did a swap between an SCA family and a "normal" family. The SCA family was, admittedly, on the fringe of the SCA, but in addition to that, the producers had the family dress in clothing they would not normally wear, just to boost ratings. Again, with the negative stereotyping. Yech. I generally avoid that show at all costs.

I only ask that regardless of someone's economic class, they're doing the "goth thing" for the right reasons. I hope that people do it because it truly speaks to them, not because they're following a fad (which, I feel, is the main problem with the subculture being more accessible to those with more money). But that's just how I feel about it, and I think that it's up to the individual to decide what they want to get out of it. I mean, on one hand, it's great that I can go to the mall and buy the clothes I like, but on the other hand, it irritates me that lots of suburban 11-year olds are wearing fishnet.

The article makes some excellent points, though, and I like hearing that sort of thing from someone other than my friends, who are, admittedly, biased.

Hm. This turned into kind of a rant. Ending now. Sorry.

[chloegoth]

Originally Posted by Xnguela

What's an SCA?

SCA = the Society for Creative Anachronism (i.e. a group that does medieval and renaissance re-creation). www.sca.org

We're the dorks with the goofy outfits and the swords (but not LARPers). I do period (ca. 1350) fencing and costuming.

[Ben Lahnger]

Yep, SCA's are very cool.

chloegoth, I saw the WifeSwap with the SCA family. So how exagerated was the behavior beyond how that family usually behaves?

Because I have to tell you, I have had a few friends into SCA. I like them and think it is a fascinating pastime/culture/hobby (differing degrees of passion and pursuit from friend to friend).

Compared to them, this family appeared to have very poorly developed social skills. I understand about the clothing, but I'm wondering how much in other ways the show's producers influenced their presentation.

[chloegoth]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Yep, SCA's are very cool.

chloegoth, I saw the WifeSwap with the SCA family. So how exagerated was the behavior beyond how that family usually behaves?

Because I have to tell you, I have had a few friends into SCA. I like them and think it is a fascinating pastime/culture/hobby (differing degrees of passion and pursuit from friend to friend).

Compared to them, this family appeared to have very poorly developed social skills. I understand about the clothing, but I'm wondering how much in other ways the show's producers influenced their presentation.

Oops. I checked it out, and though they are definitely card-carrying members of the SCA, that's just about as far as it goes. So pretty much, they're the absolute fringe of the group (surprise, surprise), and are more LARPers than anything. I'm not sure how much of that was scripted, but at any rate, it made the SCA community pretty upset. An event site in Ohio refused to let a group hold an event there because they thought all SCA members were like the people on WifeSwap. Yeesh.

Still, it goes to show that WifeSwap is crap-tastic; both because they found the weirdest family ever to profile, and because they manipulated the way that the family behaved while on the show.

(Just for the record - most of the people I know through the SCA are awesome, creative, talented people. Most of them have some type of service award with the group, and all of them have at least some functioning social skills. Sorry to have confused people)

[tenet_2012]

The SCA geeks that I used to know were... odd.

They made armor and had these huge swords made from duct tape. And they would argue about "kingdoms"...

T'was very strange.