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General General questions and meet 'n greet and welcome! |
01-20-2007, 09:31 PM
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#1
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
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It's the "chicken or the egg" all over again.
The proposition that existence precedes essence seems logic enough. Descartes would be wrong; first one exists to assign a meaning to his life. One cannot think before existing because Thought only is within the realms of existence.
Yet, existence preceding essence seems faulty.
It conflicts with the nature of consciousness.
As Descartes believed, we can doubt everything, even existence, but we cannot doubt the consciousness that doubts this.
"I searched every room in my mind, looking for something that can genuinely exist without any possibility of it being unreal, immaterial, imaginary.
I found nothing.
Then a voice told me 'Funny. Who's making the search then?'"
If existence doesn't precede everything, then what is the magnitude of those abstracts that precede existence?
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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01-20-2007, 09:58 PM
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#2
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,092
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Descartes would only be wrong if, to think, one needed physical means (a brain.) However, I could be nothing but a consciousness floating through a void, the world around me imagined. If that's the case, physical matter isn't even a part of the equation.
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No.
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01-20-2007, 10:08 PM
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#3
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: elsewhere
Posts: 2,015
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Would that apply to a net-creature? like a conscious, AI type thing that randomly was "born" in the Internet? (sorry, I'm thinking of an Orson Scott Card book right now...)
[sing] And René Descartes was a drunken fart
I drink, therefore I am! [/singing]
__________________
Twinkle, twinkle, little bat
How I wonder where you're at.
Up above the world you fly
Like a tea-tray in the sky.
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01-21-2007, 12:03 AM
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#4
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: the eternal suburbs
Posts: 654
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Awesome. Based on that theory, I am God!
It's lonely, though...
__________________
According to an article in USA Today, children from single parent homes have much better verbal skills than children from two parent homes. However, children from two parent homes are far superior at bitterly sarcastic repertoire.
I'd love to see crowds of kids running away from a greased naked guy with Jesus hair.--c130
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01-21-2007, 01:26 AM
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#5
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,092
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Hey, God, the world sucks. It'sallyourfaultIhateyourargh!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci
Would that apply to a net-creature? like a conscious, AI type thing that randomly was "born" in the Internet?
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That kind of entity would need the Internet, which needs servers, computers - matter. Unless of course that computer was imagined... a consciousness inside a consciousness?
Hm. Maybe it could be torus-like in configuration, sort of folded inside itself. That way no one thing came first, but it all just repeats endlessly.
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No.
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01-21-2007, 03:55 AM
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#6
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hell, it's other people & both of them are you
Posts: 459
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The chicken and the egg are having sex. When he finishes, the chicken rolls over, lights a cigarette, looks over at the egg and says "So... was it good for you?" THe egg looks over at the chicken and she says...
"Well... at least now we know that the chicken did come first."
__________________
I joke about death because it's funny when you're frightened.
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01-21-2007, 09:03 AM
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#7
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: the concrete and steel beehive of Southern California
Posts: 7,449
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The egg was first. Proof:
1) Before there were chickens, there were dinosaurs.
2) Dinosaurs laid eggs.
3) So the result of the preceeding is the egg came before the chicken.
So applying similar logic (in the "downstairs" of Jillian's architecture of existence),
1) Before there were humans, there was the big bang.
2) After the big bang, there was a brief period where matter existed before the Solar System came into existence.
3) As a result of the above, there was matter in existence befroe there were humans.
4) Therefore there was existence before there was consciousness.
I know this is a little heavy on the scientific side rather than pure logic (and philosophy), but I hope it helps the thread.
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01-21-2007, 09:08 AM
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#8
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanePain
The egg was first. Proof:
1) Before there were chickens, there were dinosaurs.
2) Dinosaurs laid eggs.
3) So the result of the preceeding is the egg came before the chicken.
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I think I found a fault in your logic, hun. See, the "chicken or the egg" argument is about chicken eggs. It's the age-old conundrum. If you like, you can apply it to dinosaurs. Which came first, the dinosaur or the egg? The egg has to be created by a dinosaur... But the dinosaur that created it has to come out of an egg, right?
So sure, the concept of an egg came first... But that doesn't answer the question. Which came first-- the being, or its egg?
__________________
A SPIDER sewed at night
Without a light
Upon an arc of white.
If ruff it was of dame
Or shroud of gnome,
Himself, himself inform.
Of immortality
His strategy
Was physiognomy.
--Emily Dickinson
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01-21-2007, 09:58 AM
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#9
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,688
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Obvious, perhaps, to you. Care to elaborate for those of us who don't share your brilliant sense of logic?
__________________
A SPIDER sewed at night
Without a light
Upon an arc of white.
If ruff it was of dame
Or shroud of gnome,
Himself, himself inform.
Of immortality
His strategy
Was physiognomy.
--Emily Dickinson
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01-21-2007, 10:31 AM
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#10
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hell, it's other people & both of them are you
Posts: 459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Spright
Why are we quibbling over evolution? It's obvious that the avian creature came first.
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Unless you're a creationist... in which case the answer would be that God made the chicken and then the chicken laid the egg.
The real question hiding behind this is Science vs Religion.
__________________
I joke about death because it's funny when you're frightened.
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01-21-2007, 12:17 PM
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#11
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Spright
Why are we quibbling over evolution? It's obvious that the avian creature came first.
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Actually, if you're an evolutionist, you would root for the egg.
The egg had the embryo of the first chicken, but came from progenitors that were not quite chickens.
Now, back to "reality supersedes consciousness" or "consciousness supersedes reality"
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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01-21-2007, 12:29 PM
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#12
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: the eternal suburbs
Posts: 654
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The argument that consciousness superseded reality seems more viable to me, because there really doesn't seem to be a way to validate the existence of the other consciousnesses with which the observant consciousness is interacting.
...but then again, if it is true that reality is but a product of the observant consciousness, then why doesn't it seem to have total control over the environment it has created?
__________________
According to an article in USA Today, children from single parent homes have much better verbal skills than children from two parent homes. However, children from two parent homes are far superior at bitterly sarcastic repertoire.
I'd love to see crowds of kids running away from a greased naked guy with Jesus hair.--c130
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01-21-2007, 12:31 PM
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#13
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackButterfly
why doesn't it seem to have total control over the environment it has created?
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Why don't you have conscious control over your dreams?
__________________
A SPIDER sewed at night
Without a light
Upon an arc of white.
If ruff it was of dame
Or shroud of gnome,
Himself, himself inform.
Of immortality
His strategy
Was physiognomy.
--Emily Dickinson
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01-21-2007, 12:35 PM
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#14
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,421
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At first, I thought you were claiming BB was out of her skull. xD
Matter was before consciousness.
Our "conscious" is emulated through the interaction of matter [electrical impulses in out brain] ergo matter came first.
I am a genius. :P
__________________
You ain't no punk, you punk; you wanna talk about the real junk?
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01-21-2007, 12:37 PM
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#15
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: the eternal suburbs
Posts: 654
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Hmmm... good point. But for me, dreaming is different. I can "pull out" (when I realize I'm dreaming) and observe my dreams and interact a bit, and decide whether to continue observing or wake up. Hmmm... I never connected the two before this.
__________________
According to an article in USA Today, children from single parent homes have much better verbal skills than children from two parent homes. However, children from two parent homes are far superior at bitterly sarcastic repertoire.
I'd love to see crowds of kids running away from a greased naked guy with Jesus hair.--c130
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01-21-2007, 12:40 PM
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#16
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,421
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BB, I'm tempted to call you WB[WhiteButterfly] now. :P
__________________
You ain't no punk, you punk; you wanna talk about the real junk?
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01-21-2007, 12:45 PM
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#17
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: the eternal suburbs
Posts: 654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maggot
BB, I'm tempted to call you WB[WhiteButterfly] now. :P
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Call me what you will, just don't call me before noon on a Saturday.
(ba-dum CHING!! )
Hoo boy, that was ancient!
__________________
According to an article in USA Today, children from single parent homes have much better verbal skills than children from two parent homes. However, children from two parent homes are far superior at bitterly sarcastic repertoire.
I'd love to see crowds of kids running away from a greased naked guy with Jesus hair.--c130
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01-21-2007, 12:47 PM
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#18
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackButterfly
Hmmm... good point. But for me, dreaming is different. I can "pull out" (when I realize I'm dreaming) and observe my dreams and interact a bit, and decide whether to continue observing or wake up. Hmmm... I never connected the two before this.
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Can't you detach yourself from your waking reality, too? You know, where you pull your emotions back and just analyze, logically, and realize that everything is completely subjective. I mean, obviously you can't decide whether to continue or to wake up, but it's a similar concept.
The way I always think of it is this: There are people that we call crazy that see reality as something COMPLETELY different. They see it in ways we almost can't even understand. And they believe in their reality just as strongly as we believe in ours, right? The main difference, to my way of thinking, is that we know that the majority of people don't see reality their way. That, however, implies that individual reality is in perception, right? And since we can't know anyone's mind but our own, we can only perceive that the majority of people don't see reality their way.
Basically, my belief is that reality, as a universally defined concept, doesn't exist.
__________________
A SPIDER sewed at night
Without a light
Upon an arc of white.
If ruff it was of dame
Or shroud of gnome,
Himself, himself inform.
Of immortality
His strategy
Was physiognomy.
--Emily Dickinson
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01-21-2007, 12:54 PM
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#19
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: the eternal suburbs
Posts: 654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness
Basically, my belief is that reality, as a universally defined concept, doesn't exist.
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So the "your ___ is not my ___" thing, huh? Interesting.
So do you think that society forces individual consciousnesses to look at things in a predefined way (explaining why so many people see things similarly)?
__________________
According to an article in USA Today, children from single parent homes have much better verbal skills than children from two parent homes. However, children from two parent homes are far superior at bitterly sarcastic repertoire.
I'd love to see crowds of kids running away from a greased naked guy with Jesus hair.--c130
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01-21-2007, 01:02 PM
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#20
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,688
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I'm not sure I'd blame it specifically on "society", that sounds so anti-establishment. I definitely feel like it's largely due to nurture, though. That is, IF you believe that so many people see things similarly. One could possibly argue that you have no idea how other people see things, or if other people even exist.
__________________
A SPIDER sewed at night
Without a light
Upon an arc of white.
If ruff it was of dame
Or shroud of gnome,
Himself, himself inform.
Of immortality
His strategy
Was physiognomy.
--Emily Dickinson
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01-21-2007, 01:03 PM
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#21
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanePain
1) Before there were humans, there was the big bang.
2) After the big bang, there was a brief period where matter existed before the Solar System came into existence.
3) As a result of the above, there was matter in existence befroe there were humans.
4) Therefore there was existence before there was consciousness.
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I disagree. There may have been consciounsness (god-like or otherwise)before humans, or even before the big bang
__________________
Give a man a fire, and he is warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life.
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01-21-2007, 01:13 PM
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#22
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: the eternal suburbs
Posts: 654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkHeartedDemoness
I'm not sure I'd blame it specifically on "society", that sounds so anti-establishment. I definitely feel like it's largely due to nurture, though. That is, IF you believe that so many people see things similarly. One could possibly argue that you have no idea how other people see things, or if other people even exist.
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I think I meant "nurture" instead of "society". I knew the word seemed inappropriate, but it's hard to think straight with the old boyfriend screaming at a football game behind me...
That's the problem I keep running into: how do we prove the other people even exist? The "people" around you may see things similarly to the way you see them because your consciousness made them up.
Or if there are other people, maybe your consciousness is translating the communication from their consciousness into a way in which you can relate?
__________________
According to an article in USA Today, children from single parent homes have much better verbal skills than children from two parent homes. However, children from two parent homes are far superior at bitterly sarcastic repertoire.
I'd love to see crowds of kids running away from a greased naked guy with Jesus hair.--c130
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01-21-2007, 01:15 PM
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#23
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,688
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Exactly. That's exactly right.
If you think about it too much, it'll freak you out. Or at least it freaks me out if I dwell on it too long.
__________________
A SPIDER sewed at night
Without a light
Upon an arc of white.
If ruff it was of dame
Or shroud of gnome,
Himself, himself inform.
Of immortality
His strategy
Was physiognomy.
--Emily Dickinson
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01-21-2007, 01:29 PM
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#24
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackButterfly
So the "your ___ is not my ___" thing, huh? So do you think that society forces individual consciousnesses to look at things in a predefined way (explaining why so many people see things similarly)?
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I do... I think that todays society are normalising people with all the labels and even grades. I mean, think about grades: it's a paper sheet supposed to tell who you are. Would you want that? That's why people who are different are pushed away. Imagine what they would have done to Jesus today. Probably locked him into some madhouse, just because it'd be something different. 2000 years and NOTHING have changed.
__________________
Give a man a fire, and he is warm for a day.
Set a man on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life.
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01-21-2007, 01:32 PM
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#25
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hell, it's other people & both of them are you
Posts: 459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackButterfly
...but then again, if it is true that reality is but a product of the observant consciousness, then why doesn't it seem to have total control over the environment it has created?
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Some would say that with enough discipline this is possible. In fact, some refer to it as magic and use ritual and spellcraft to tap into the discipline needed to effect change in the environment around us.
Magic can be defined as the means and the process of altering reality to suit the Will. Aleister Crowley defined it, in Magic in Theory and Practice as "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." Dion Fortune said that "Magic is the art of changing consciousness at will." Isaac Bonewits refers to magic as: A general term for arts, sciences, philosophies and technologies concerned with understanding and using various altered states of consciousness within which it is possible to have access to and control over one's psychic talents, and the uses and abuses of those psychic talents to change interior and/or exterior realities.
In essence, they are all talking about using the consciousness to have control over the environment.
__________________
I joke about death because it's funny when you're frightened.
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