Nichols gets a new neighbor

[angel_dark_demon_bright]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/05/04/mo...ict/index.html

So it seems that moussaoui will not die by our hands as many had expected. Now instead he goes to spend the rest of his days watching the "American Filth" on our cable tvs. Even if he did have something to do with 9/11 Id rather see him get life in prison than the death penalty.

[Isibell]

I have to agree...much as it greaves me.

In jail he's just another looser criminal who we never have to look at again.


Dead he's a martyr. And all Al Quaida needs right now is a martyr.

[edible_eye]

he should be hung using a pig's intestine, his stomach packed with raw pig meat and his corpse filled with pig's blood.

oh wait, i forgot. we're trying to 'win their hearts and minds'.

let's buy him dinner at a pork-free restaurant instead.

[Binkie]

The guy will suffer more as he rots away in prison. The only "sweet release" Moussaoui would have deserved anyways was the electric chair.

[angel_dark_demon_bright]

Moussaoi is going to be sent to a super max prison facility in colorado. Where he will spend the rest of his days either in his cell 23 hours a day watching our entertainment on a little nine inch screen tv, or one hour a day excercising. For one i really dont think he is that dangerous.

I would have sent him to a regular prison where he would be getting the shit beat out of him everyday by mexican gangs, and by night being r*aped by a big horny hairy pervert. Unfourtunately we have a humane justice system that is against 'cruel and' deserved 'unusual punishment'.
Itd still be fun to see.

[edible_eye]

as nice as all that sounds, just remember - isolation isn't all it's cracked up to be for a religious fanatic.

i have yet to hear of anyone "rotting away" within the prison system. the united states penal system simply doesn't allow it, despite the liberal, anti-american, we-hate-ourselves attempts at discrediting everything american and their rumors of widespread abuse and torture in prisons set up outside of our country.

prison is prison. you're removed from society. period. life within the walls is a society all its own.

if he's going to "rot away", then let him rot - put him in a steel cage and leave it somewhere inaccessible, like the bottom of a well. no food, no water. he'd rot, all right.

as it stands now, in my opinion, he was right with his statement - "america, you lost. i won". he and his ilk perpetratd mass slaughter on american soil and yet, he was spared because bleeding heart pacifists have learned how to bow down and kiss the feet of those who would readily slit their collective throats.

rot away? i don't think so.

sit in high esteem as a symbol of allah's power to protect those who serve him? maybe.

three hots and a cot, free medical and dental, free legal services, free this, free that, appeals and appeals and appeals. yeah.

he'll rot, all right - all the way to the proverbial bank while fanatics with nothing to their name and nothing to lose watch and learn that their lives can be sacrificed to allah with the possibility of living as a martyr to the cause because their enemy is weak.

how long 'til we see massouai's face on the flags they wave? anyone wanna take a guess?

[4mytribe]

Just remember to turn his toilet south so it doesnt face Mecca or that might offend him. We cant have that now can we?

[4mytribe]

Uhh just in case nobody knows what I'm talking about (I get that alot ).

Here is a link about a prison turning its tiolets so Muslims dont have to face Mecca too funny. You cant make this stuff up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/4926114.stm

[edible_eye]

ah, yes.

torture.

abuse.

and the all-powerful rot.

oh, enemy of mine, look upon me with kind eyes for i serve you well.

[Binkie]

I don't know if he would have been as endangered by being in a regular prison as once thought. Islam is extremely prevelant amongst inmates these days, and the FBI has actually been tracking 'prison terror cells' that recruit people inside.

As for no one "rotting away," fanatics can't handle confinement. Especially solitary. Look at the many suicide attempts at Guantonimo, not to mention insurgents that are held for years in Iraq send suicide letters to their families all the time because they can't handle it. True, he won't rot physically, but mentally it does a number on Islamic terrorists. Especially ones that are to live out the rest of their days in a solitary cell for a crime they were prevented from actually committing. How it must feel to be that much of a "fuck up."

[edible_eye]

i'm all for stripping them of their sense of self - i'd just like to see their husk of humanity electrocuted after they ceased to mentally exist.

the very fact that they can continue to converse with loved ones via the mail negates their "isolation". words such as "suicide" hold little-to-no-weight in terms of breaking them down. after all, what does it matter if an islamist fanatic wants to commit suicide when such a feat is believed to grant them immediate access to allah's kingdom - a la, suicide / homicide bombers?

also, what better propaganda to put out there than - look at what the americans are doing to me! i want to kill myself because of their inhumane treatment. where are the reporters? i want them to see me crying..

[Binkie]

Thing is though, e_e, according to Islam they're not allowed to just hang themselves in their cells as "sweet release." Muslims have to die in serving God (such as, in fanatical cases; while shooting children in the back [Beslan], blowing up innocent children [Iraq], or driving planes with children in them into 'strategic' targets [9/11]). Hanging one's self in their cell, alone, don't do shit for God, and if he were to go through with it, there wouldn't be any virigins waiting for his sorry ass wherever the fuck he ends up in the afterlife. That's why this shit drives [fanatics] nuts. They can't just walk outside and blow themselves up and go to heaven. They have to wait 50-some years here in "hell"/America.

Maybe someone, somewhere, has interpreted the Quran to say otherwise, but as far as I've come to understand it, doing that will land you on a "Go straight to hell" spot on the grand Monopoly board of Islam.

[edible_eye]

i understand, oh sage one. it's just that...

bah.

a segment of america will run with this, eventually, calling for leniency. it's where we, as a people addicted to television and self-loathing, have landed.

massaoui will not be isolated. massaoui will not be forgotten, in the long run. he will, however, use the air time he does eventually get, via his legal team, to further his and his religion's agenda.

the trial is over. the only focus now will be the "rotting away" he's suffering in prison. and those who have followed this inside of that religious sect will hang on his plight and use it to concoct new avenues of justification for their inevitable attacks.

we had a chance to show them we wouldn't tolerate their bullshit, to touch on whatever small amount of fear they may have and what did we, as a nation awaiting another attack, do? we smiled and gave him a pass.

it's been the same thing for this entire war, binks. instead of allowing the military to do what they're trained to do, restraints are applied.

and now we, as a people, have done exactly what's been railed against, in essence, for all those who have shouted to let the military do their job and fight this war the way it should be fought - when the shoe was on our foot, we balked and played nice.

win their hearts and minds.

you make valid points, as always - but the problem i have with this is simple... this is america and we're fighting this war while playing by their rules.

[4mytribe]

Originally Posted by edible_eye

you make valid points, as always - but the problem i have with this is simple... this is america and we're fighting this war while playing by their rules.

I can agree with that. Just wish we had focused more on Afganistan.

[edible_eye]

fuck afghanistan and fuck iraq.

we should focus on obliterating the shit out of our enemies or we should get the fuck out.

period.

anything else = murdering OUR men and women in uniform.

[4mytribe]

You know what I was down for all the wars untill I started thinking and researching more on the net. So having been an idiot I will say going to Iraq was wrong and I'm no longer sure about Afghanistan. But if war was the idea we I think shouldve put alot more focus on Afganistan and done that right so we could actually get a win.

Now we're looking weak.

[Binkie]

I know where you're coming from, e_e. Like I said, I wish the asshole would have gotten the chair. None of that leathal injection bullshit. The "grit your teeth until your eyeballs explode" electric chair. As for the military and our intelligence community being restrained, again, I whole heartedly agree. We can all thank the bureaucratic assholes in Washington, on both sides of the aisle, for those kinks in the line.

[Cambodian Breakfast]

Originally Posted by 4mytribe

You know what I was down for all the wars untill I started thinking and researching more on the net. So having been an idiot I will say going to Iraq was wrong and I'm no longer sure about Afghanistan. But if war was the idea we I think shouldve put alot more focus on Afganistan and done that right so we could actually get a win.

Now we're looking weak.

We have made great headway in Afganistan. Thats why you don't hear about it in the news.

[Loy]

e_e-I'm just curious where you get this idea that prison's a whole bundle of fun (your statements exudes the attitude). OK, so I've been to jail, not prison, but I can guarantee that being on the inside is one of the most humiliating things one can ever go through....and as I said, I was just in jail, not prison. I can also tell you that whilst you can speak with people on the outside, it doesn't negate the fact YOU are on the inside....in fact, it fucks with you even more so.

As far as him getting life....BFD. Sorry, but letting him live isn't a good idea from a "bleeding heart" perspective, but from a realistic perspective, which is probably where this sentance comes from...creating martyrs is a BAAAADDDD idea. Sorry to cut your bloodlust with logic, but sometimes you just gotta swallow your pride and do what needs to be done.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by Loy

e_e-I'm just curious where you get this idea that prison's a whole bundle of fun (your statements exudes the attitude). OK, so I've been to jail, not prison, but I can guarantee that being on the inside is one of the most humiliating things one can ever go through....and as I said, I was just in jail, not prison. I can also tell you that whilst you can speak with people on the outside, it doesn't negate the fact YOU are on the inside....in fact, it fucks with you even more so.

i've worked in prison, loy and while i would not describe life on the inside as "fun", it's far from "rotting away", especially with someone high profile. on that topic, if all goes well, i should be able to pick up a per diem job at a federal, psychiatric prison here soon... but i digress.

while not "fun", there is a social hierarchy inside the walls and to believe that all socialization is forever cut off is misleading. he will not, by any means, live the kind of life he's used to living on the outside - but that doesn't mean it will break him. he will have unlimited time to read his quran, to write letters once he earns that privelege, to plot with his legal team in order to get his message out and he's high profile - that buys him status, whether it inspires others to loathe or admire him, it buys him instant status inside. prisoners are allowed to earn visitation as well.

moussaoui is a dog and like any dog gone rabid, he should have been put down.

Originally Posted by loy

As far as him getting life....BFD. Sorry, but letting him live isn't a good idea from a "bleeding heart" perspective, but from a realistic perspective, which is probably where this sentance comes from...creating martyrs is a BAAAADDDD idea. Sorry to cut your bloodlust with logic, but sometimes you just gotta swallow your pride and do what needs to be done.

one need not be executed in light of one's cause to become a martyr, loy - one needs only to suffer greatly and with all the press of our intention to make him "rot away", moussaoui has already reached martyr status.

it's just another moment of incompetence from a people who have forgotten how to be square-jawed and unyielding toward those we call our enemy, when it's required.

[4mytribe]

What e_e said made a ton of sense to me.

[Loy]

Edible-Of course a hiearchy exists in prison, it exists anytime you have more than 1 person ANYWHERE. It's one of those aspects of mankind that we haven't evolved out of, and doubtfully ever will. But does hiarchy = socialization? Not neccesarily. And even though hiarchys develop in any situation, that doesn't mean that they provide comfort whence a person is separated from family/friends/what have you (in fact, when somebody is separated from their normal situation, the social condition they create for themselves is only seen as "temporary" from a psychological perspective), nor does it mean that the person themselves see the hiarchy as anything other than temporary. In fact, the longer a person is separated from their "society" whilst in place with a "temporary" social setting, the more it begins to fuck with them.

As far as him talking to outsiders.....well, that's even more of a mindfuck, so I'm all for it. And as far as him getting any kind of message out there....even if his mail/conversations/what have you WEREN'T being monitored (which they will be. If I remember, he's in a Federal Prison, not a State prison, and therefore has less of a right to privacy than anybody in State. This includes tampering/overhearing/censoring of outgoing mail/conversations/what have you), I still wouldn't care. Why? Because keeping him alive prevents him from becoming a martyr (are we torturing him? No. Are we making sure he's physically healthy? You bet. Thus, we can pull the "No we haven't killed him, and he's not suffering more so than he deserves, as was decided by a jury of his peers" argument to anybody who tries to create a "martyr" out of him, thus trumping your second argument).

As much as keeping him alive sucks from a bloodlust perspective, it also forces us to look at our laws (as written into the constitution), and thus look at WHAT exactly makes America what it is...it sure as hell isn't our culture (let's face it. We aren't old enough to have anything that remotely resemble a "long-standing culture", and anything we try to claim as our own is based upon other cultures....and 4mytribe, remember that next time you spout off something ignorant about "the lie of multiculturalism", since our culture is, in actuality, an amalgm of other cultural moors and viewpoints), nor our history, but the ideals that were the foundation of this country. Sometimes, those ideals work against what we really want, but if you're gonna call yourself an American, then you better be willing to accept that.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by Loy

Edible-Of course a hiearchy exists in prison, it exists anytime you have more than 1 person ANYWHERE. It's one of those aspects of mankind that we haven't evolved out of, and doubtfully ever will. But does hiarchy = socialization? Not neccesarily. And even though hiarchys develop in any situation, that doesn't mean that they provide comfort whence a person is separated from family/friends/what have you (in fact, when somebody is separated from their normal situation, the social condition they create for themselves is only seen as "temporary" from a psychological perspective), nor does it mean that the person themselves see the hiarchy as anything other than temporary. In fact, the longer a person is separated from their "society" whilst in place with a "temporary" social setting, the more it begins to fuck with them.

as you said - hierarchy doesn't NECESSARILY = socialization, nor does it NECESSARILY =/= socialization. prisoners find a way, some way, any way to get what they need in order to maintain their selves as best they can. moussaoui is, by all civilized standards, already broken - so, what are they hoping to "break"? there's a lot of double-speak that goes on when civilized society and civilians alike don an arbiters hat to decide how someone's fate will play out in prison, in that it's more easily accomplished for an everyday joe to consider his neighbor when he works out a scenario for how prison will affect him, rather than take a few minutes to get inside the mind of the piece of shit that's been sentenced to begin with. (sorry for that run-on sentence)

communication inside the wall happens, despite the best efforts of law enforcement personnel. it's a game like 'stratego' that requires patience and plotting. to disbelieve that is to be naive. criminal minds work to break down their oppressive environment. criminal minds work to control their oppressive environment. criminal minds work to manipulate their oppressive environment. that's all they do, 24 hours a day.

moussaoui and others like him are well-adept at the waiting game. they sit and wait for undetermined lengths of time while plotting their attacks. that's the way he and those like him work.

i'd love to see video footage of him if his brain eventually shorted out and he became nothing more than a drooling idiot due to his incarceration - but i don't believe that, or anything like that, will happen.

Originally Posted by loy

As far as him talking to outsiders.....well, that's even more of a mindfuck, so I'm all for it.

it's a privelege. understand that. it's a privelege, like receiving a bonus check while working.

Originally Posted by loy

And as far as him getting any kind of message out there....even if his mail/conversations/what have you WEREN'T being monitored (which they will be. If I remember, he's in a Federal Prison, not a State prison, and therefore has less of a right to privacy than anybody in State. This includes tampering/overhearing/censoring of outgoing mail/conversations/what have you), I still wouldn't care. Why? Because keeping him alive prevents him from becoming a martyr (are we torturing him? No. Are we making sure he's physically healthy? You bet. Thus, we can pull the "No we haven't killed him, and he's not suffering more so than he deserves, as was decided by a jury of his peers" argument to anybody who tries to create a "martyr" out of him, thus trumping your second argument).

you're slipping into the old, one-mind-on-america's-terms type of argument - and while america's opinion is the only one that really matters to me anyway, the same can not be said for those savages in the middle east.

it doesn't matter what america says is just and right in terms of his incarceration and punishment. all they (islamist fanatics and their minions) will see are the words "rot away". we are taking one of allah's chosen and forcing him to "rot away".

it doesn't matter that he would have blown himself up on a whim in front of a group of children to maim and kill - the americans have put him in a box to "rot away". to them, he absolutely WILL be seen as a martyr. to them, we absolutely WILL continue to be the devil. in a culture such as theirs, where death is a readily accepted form of retribution for wrongs committed - hell, it's a readily accepted form of entertainment on a date, for christ's sake - enforcing the death penalty on moussaoui here in our country wouldn't have made a lick of difference vs. what he's going through and will continue to go through in supermax, not from their perspective.

Originally Posted by loy

As much as keeping him alive sucks from a bloodlust perspective, it also forces us to look at our laws (as written into the constitution), and thus look at WHAT exactly makes America what it is...it sure as hell isn't our culture (let's face it. We aren't old enough to have anything that remotely resemble a "long-standing culture", and anything we try to claim as our own is based upon other cultures....

and look at our laws, we should. we have the death penalty as an option on our books and yet we, as a people, are hugely squeamish when it comes to enforcing it. perhaps it should be removed from the archives as a potential lawful penalty if the populace who actually report to jury duty can't stomach the responsiblity, an event which would greatly dishearten me but at least the debate would be over.

as for our "culture", america has a culture just the same as any other country out there, regardless of whether or not it's long-standing. we claim an amalgam of ideas and nationalities and customs and beliefs as ingredients to a mixing pot which helps to create our culture - something not accomplished anywhere else in the world. america absolutely has its own culture and to discount that is to discount the essence of america. it's not irish or spanish or italian or german or hindu or protestant or zimbabwean or pakistani or english - it's all of these with a walloping dose of freedom and liberty thrown into the mix for good measure. and it's ever growing, ever progressing - unlike the staunch and "established" (read that as old and stalled) cultures of people around the world who turn their noses up at who we are.

Originally Posted by loy

and 4mytribe, remember that next time you spout off something ignorant about "the lie of multiculturalism", since our culture is, in actuality, an amalgm of other cultural moors and viewpoints), nor our history, but the ideals that were the foundation of this country. Sometimes, those ideals work against what we really want, but if you're gonna call yourself an American, then you better be willing to accept that.

the "lie of multiculturalism" has to do with specific cultures rising up to make noise about why their culture is the most important or should be utilized as "law" here in the states over and above all others. it's a lie because they use concepts such as the melting pot to define why they are important, all the while demanding that they are accepted regardless of anyone else's background and belief. when others counter their demands, they're labeled as racists and xenophobes. i don't know whether that was 4mytribe's point or not, but there IS a lie out there and it's being used for certain entitled egomaniacs to try and gain leverage.

[angel_dark_demon_bright]

The thing is moussoui is going into a supermax security prison. He will have 23 hrs a day with himself. He'll get only one hour a day to exercise by HIMSELF. There will be noone else around him except those guarding him. While in his cell he will be observered all day. He wont be able to kill himself, someone will be watching him. He will rarely, if ever, see any other inmates.

Moussoui will spend his time reading the koran, until inevitably get sick of reading the same thing over and over.

If we kill him, no matter how we do it, we risk making him a martyr despite whatever hold he may have on anyone watching. If we only imprison him we show to any would be followers that he has not been treated unfairly. He is not abused or mistreated, and that he is allowed to live in good health in his cell.

Granted e_e, yes he does deserve to die. But this guy wants to die. Are we to cater to his last wish? He says "america, you lose", using reverse pysicology hoping we would second guess ourselves and send him to the gallows. With his death on tv muslims would have a battle cry to rally to, and declare that their great jihad is the will of allah. Lets not make him a hero.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by angel_dark_demon_bright

The thing is moussoui is going into a supermax security prison. He will have 23 hrs a day with himself. He'll get only one hour a day to exercise by HIMSELF. There will be noone else around him except those guarding him. While in his cell he will be observered all day. He wont be able to kill himself, someone will be watching him. He will rarely, if ever, see any other inmates.

Moussoui will spend his time reading the koran, until inevitably get sick of reading the same thing over and over.

i'm quite familiar with the operation of a supermax facility. perhaps you would benefit from reading material outside the realm of mainstream media in terms of understanding how prisoners are rather notorious for circumventing protocol.

and how do you come to the conclusion that he will "inevitably" become sick of reading the koran?

Originally Posted by angel_dark_demon_bright

If we kill him, no matter how we do it, we risk making him a martyr despite whatever hold he may have on anyone watching. If we only imprison him we show to any would be followers that he has not been treated unfairly. He is not abused or mistreated, and that he is allowed to live in good health in his cell.

we're soft in their eyes, angel specifically because of this. we're weak. we have not the backbone to kill our declared enemy. this is the weak-willed argument i've heard again and again, coming from people who have no basis for the words they spew. HOW does leniency in the face of a people who thrive on the destruction of their enemy equate to a learning experience for them?

such a concept sounds good, i suppose, while standing around and debating how you and others who really believe that tripe are changing the way the world thinks by your kinder and gentler nature - but let's face reality for a moment. if someone has been brought up to punch you in the face when they meet you and you offer open hands and a smile in return with an offer to discuss the problem, be prepared to suffer a bloody nose. no amount of supposed "enlightenment" is going to save you from it.

Originally Posted by angel_dark_demon_bright

Granted e_e, yes he does deserve to die. But this guy wants to die. Are we to cater to his last wish?

no. we enforce the laws we have and rid our country of a walking cancer.

Originally Posted by angel_dark_demon_bright

He says "america, you lose", using reverse pysicology hoping we would second guess ourselves and send him to the gallows. With his death on tv muslims would have a battle cry to rally to, and declare that their great jihad is the will of allah. Lets not make him a hero.

he already is a martyr. don't delude yourself. he was nothing but a tool before he was caught and he will be replaced. fanatical muslims don't need him to declare their hatred against us, they don't need him as a justification for their battle cries.

instead of looking to the rest of the world in terms of our capacity to enforce our laws and protect our people, let's look right here at home. we had a chance to relieve some of our own rage against those who perpetrated a massive attack against our people. when those planes went into the towers, how many people across the country wanted to have a chance to take their rage out on just one of the hijackers?

we had our chance with this trial and we, as a people represented by that jury, pussied out - and THAT'S what those fanatics in the middle east see. they see a weak-willed adversary and that's exactly what they look for in order to operate more efficiently.