The Rebel Flag

[Virulent Dryad]

Well you have to remember that being nice to people, even helping starving children can also be considered "selfish" since the reason most people do it is to ease their guilt and make themselves "feel better".

Of course being a total bastard will get you nowhere, common sense can tell you as much. For example - one person alone cannot build and man a power plant, locate and process the materials required for technology, design and build the technology, programme the technology, and manage to find time to grow or hunt enough food to keep themselves alive. And as a result, nobody gets anywhere. This can apply to practically anything.

If you took away a person's house, their belongings, everything that means something to them and they are forced to live on the streets and make a fight for survival, chances are they will co-operate. I don't know if you have ever been in the ER waiting area of a hospital but you'll noticed that when people have something taken from them, or a loved one hurt, they put aside differences, and they feel each others pain and they co-operate. Why? Because humans (and other animals) have evolved to co-operate. Forming organised groups strongly increases chances of survival. Research has show that our brain automatically links the concept of charity with the concept of reward. Even when no reward is offered.

Humanity also has the unique ability to understand and empathise with the feelings of others, and to analyse our actions; understanding that others feel the same as we do means that we can realise others shouldn't want to be treated in a way that we wouldn't want to. Although empathy generally takes a second seat to negative emotions, such as fear, anger and jealousy. Analysing actions means if we can avoid repeating mistakes. If we perceive the consequences to be bad, we feel guilt, if we perceive them to be good, we feel pride.

If you have a car, a house, friends, and the likes, you don't need to be nice. You have a decent amount in life and you don't need to go a step further, so it's easy to become selfish. Take that away from someone and they can no longer be assholes or they will get nowhere.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by TStone

OK, let’s approach it this way. You have a friend and he invites you to his home. You drive up, get out, walk to the door where he proceeds to take his shoes off before entering. Do you:
A. Fuck it. My feet my world my rules.
B. Slip off your shoes and proceed to the coliseum?

i'd likely slip off my shoes.

Originally Posted by tstone

You are in your car and pick up a co-worker whom you know has bad allergies. You’re dying for a smoke and reach into you pocket, and pause…
A. Ask the friend if he or she minds if you light up?
B. Fuck it. My world, my car, my lungs, your problem.

i'd probably ask if he minded my lighting up, even if he wasn't my friend.

Originally Posted by tstone

Flip that hypothetical and say you are being picked up by the friend.
A. Ask if he or she minds if you light up?
B. Fuck it. My world, his or her car, my lungs, his or her problem.

same.

Originally Posted by tstone

You’ve just lain new sod on your lawn, Kentucky Blue, and in pulls your brother in-law with his 79 POS and parks, not in your drive-way as is normal, but atop your freshly built lawn. Do you:
A. Proceed to jerk him through the window by the jaw, smash his face into the earth, and fuckstomp him a new colostomy bag?
B. Calmly relate your dissatisfaction with his parking choice and explain your reasoning while asking him to park in the drive way.

probably freak out and tell him to move the car.

Originally Posted by tstone

We could continue, but I do think one selfless act need not be reciprocated by selfishness.

i still don't see how one person's or one group's declaration of offense to a relatively ambiguous object or symbol automatically equates to a set-in-stone rule that all others must feel exactly the same way. if someone is offended, fine - be offended. i just don't feel i need to take it on my shoulders as well if i don't feel the same.

Originally Posted by tstone

In my world I strive to put others before me. I eat last, I bathe last, I leave the last soda for someone else. I know we can’t all operate like that because then we’d all be malnourished smelly fucks with a mountain of soda for to worship, but every now and then it helps to take someone else’s feeling into consideration.

No?

surprisingly, i behave in kind. taking someone's feelings into consideration is one thing and i heartily endorse such empathy.

i don't, however, agree with someone demanding i respect their feelings to the point of adopting their cause. to that, i kindly decline with a slap on my butt while pointing to my lips, making kissy noises all-the-while.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by TStone

And then there’s this; You live in a free country and have all the rights and privileges of that freedom…the right to your freedoms as long as those freedoms do not retard or diminish another’s free rights.

bingo. anyone has the right to be offended and declare it aloud. they even have the right to tell me i should be offended as well. they do not, however, have the right to force me to alter my life in order to have me express offense if i don't feel it.

Originally Posted by tstone

Freedom is forfeited in lieu of harmony and majority rule. You can still have your forfeited freedom, you just have to go off to exercise it, or move to a rural pit-bull-in-a-pickup South’s-Gonna-Rise-Again nigga’s-getting-all-the-good-cheese type of place.

…

I’ll suggest my neighborhood. If you come on Tuesday after six bring a watermelon and a jug of wine, it’s the weekly Klan meeting time.

i'd rather bring whiskey. we'll have a few shots after your klan meeting. the views they express don't exactly jibe with my soul, brother - but by all means, you gotta do what feels good to you.

[NachtSorcier]

It does not matter what anything originally meant. Symbols are meant to trigger a thought or emotion, and it just so happens that when symbols are flippantly perverted by large amounts of people, that perverted meaning seeps into the subconscious of the masses. Yes, a lot of people do know that the Swastika once meant good luck. But because Adolph Hitler, who was known by virtually everyone on Earth, perverted it to his own meaning, it became a symbol of hate. The Confederate flag once meant pride of the South, sure, but now who flies it? The Mickey Mouse Klub, who much like Hitler, are known by virtually everyone. And what are they? A racist, anti-Semetic, homophobic terrorist organization. So why should it be any surprise that it now symbolizes hate to many people?

The pentagram was once a Christian symbol because it symbolized the five virtues of Christianity and the five wounds of Christ. Now what does it symbolize in popular thought? Satan. Now in reality it is a symbol of the Wiccan religion.

Symbols change with the times.

*EDIT* Ok, why can't I say the name of the organization that was automatically replaced by the demonic mouse?

[nuksaa]

It does not matter what anything originally meant. Symbols are meant to trigger a thought or emotion, and it just so happens that when symbols are flippantly perverted by large amounts of people, that perverted meaning seeps into the subconscious of the masses.

I would disagree. It is important to educate to defuse the emotion associated with symbols. I believe it important to remember what the swastica's origins were and what the confederate flags origins were for 2 reasons.

1) Suppression of these items is just as delibrate as book burning. People want to create the hoopla attached to these symbols in order to create a black and white society. They want to sterotype and brand others in a glance vice talk to others and learn who they are. And, of course, individuals like to cling to the bad vice the good.

2) To defuse these hate groups. Why do some white supremacist groups use a swastica or the confederate flag? To promote fear. If you fear them, they gain power, edge, acknowledgement and become bonafide do to an attachment to a past certified body of hate. Many of the members do not really care about what they are representing but just want to create and display hate.

A. Fuck it. My feet my world my rules.
B. Slip off your shoes and proceed to the coliseum?

B. I do not have a mantra or belief based on wearing shoes and it is not inconvienient for me to do so. Also, he is a friend so I am assuming the mutual expectation between friends is one of courtesy, respect and understanding.

A. Proceed to jerk him through the window by the jaw, smash his face into the earth, and fuckstomp him a new colostomy bag?
B. Calmly relate your dissatisfaction with his parking choice and explain your reasoning while asking him to park in the drive way.

C. My wife may do A or B. I would call a wrecker and have the car towed. When I visit relatives, I always ask where to park to ensure I do not get towed.

[Monsosin]

Xnguela, your right, The Nazis did make the swastika a symbol of hate. The rebel flag to me shows part of the history of the country, and the pride of the south. I collect flags, some that are in my collection are seen as "evil" by people because of what they stood for when they flew. Thats all history now, I like history, learning is fun (don't hit me). Most of my flags are U.S. flags, and pirate flags. I collect flags for their historical meaning, but the pirate flags... thats only because I like pirates, YAR!

[bunnicula]

Symbols are meaningless until they are put in context

Individual life experiences and perceptions create the context through which symbols are seen.

For every symbol I can create or replicate, someone out there will be offended by it. Someone will also be moved by it. It is not within my power to determine the outcome.

[nuksaa]

Originally Posted by Xnguela

Except that when a nazi holds a swastika it has nothing to do with its original meeting. It doesn't matter if you know its original meaning, or acknowledge it. When a nazi holds a swastika, it is about hate, pure and simple. And knowing shit or acknowledging shit will not change that.

Other than that, I agree with the points made in your post.

And I do agree; but I have rattled a few of their cages when I explained the symbol they are throwing in my face is borrowed from an ethnic group they are proclaiming their hate towards. It wasn't meant to present an answer to solve the hate problem (if I could do that, I would feel Nobel knocking on the door). Most symbols do get polluted with negative agendas by those wishing to exploit them for their self-perpetuating purposes.

Originally Posted by Xng

I'm a pirate. Not really, but let's pretend.

I have a pirate ancestor. So, yarr.

[angel_dark_demon_bright]

When it comes to certain flags and symbols, it can mean whatever you want it to mean. Such is the right of free speech. If someone flys the confederate flag as a personal message of freedom against an oppressive government more power to them. If however they want to fly it because they believe blacks should be our slaves, fetch us our slippers, massage our bunions, and wear skimpy french maid outfits...., anyways, that's their choice. It just so happens that it also falls under free speech. Even though it may not be agreed upon by all who see it.

Same way with a swastika. I once was reading a book about the origins of the swastika (it had next to nothing to do with hitler and his thugs). Almost immediatly i was labeled a Nazi by everyone in the class. No one even asked what the book was about. People will always see what they want in a symbol and you cant change what they think about it.

I guess if you want to fly the stars and bars, a swastika or whatever for your own reasons then go for it. Just think about the effect it will have on someone before you do. If it bothers them thats their problem. As long as you are not doing it to delibratly offend them, fine. But if you decide to put up swastikas across for a synagogue, expect a reaction.

[WolfMoon]

Well, I'm from the good ol' South and I've never seen the Flag(Confederate? Rebel? Tom's got me all confuzzled, now) used as anything more than an excuse to openly display racism.

One of the reasons I can't stand most of the redneck boys I grew up with is because they'll say to someone's face they aren't racist, but talk about all the ******s, spics, wetbacks, chinks and so on when they think no one is listening.

I'd like a little less bullshit on my serving next time.

PLSKTHX


P.S. The south ain't ever gonna rise again. We barely got it up the first time...