Gothic Discrimination in School

[ExistentialDisorder]

ah, *puke*

is everybody done sucking stone's dick?

Oh wait, I think you missed a drop.

~E.D.

[Disfunction]

You're just jealous because you still haven't had your lick.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

ah, *puke*

is everybody done sucking stone's dick?

Oh wait, I think you missed a drop.

~E.D.

Gee, that was classy.

I didn't realize I needed your permission to speak kindly of my friend.

[Peter]

Being right on occasion seems to help a lot with that respect / instant success thing though.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by Peter

Being right on occasion seems to help a lot with that respect / instant success thing though.

Yes, that also helps quite a bit..

Part of the reason why you fit in rather nicely...



We're suckers for an articulate and well thought out presentation of ideas..

[AlKilyu]

Awe thanks TStone. At least someone appriciated what I do, as you were witness in a couple of other threads that even when trying only to help, people get pissed. People sometimes say "Well I didn't ASK for your help!" but they did, maybe not directly but sometimes their sad lives require intervention.

And I'm just the asshole to stick my neck out and do it!

[ExistentialDisorder]

Originally Posted by Peter

Being right on occasion seems to help a lot with that respect / instant success thing though.

You are all correct. Camaraderie goes a long way.

But I challenge you to prove me wrong, on just one thing I've said. Just one. Any of you. And I'll shut up. Shouldn't be difficult, considering you imply that nothing I've said is correct, in reference to the above quote.

~E.D.

[Sakred_Winter]

That all is really very touching, TStone. I wish I could've been a part of this along time ago.

But I haven't, and I'm sorry.

This thread isn't to fight against each other. I made this thread to put forth ideas about school and governmental discrimination in this flushed country. To discuss problems going on in schools, legal problems. And what we might be able to do to help one another.

[Peter]

All true Wiccans are Pagan

Except the wiccans who worship the one God (including the ones who don't worship the same one god as the Christians depending on which meaning of pagan you use) as two aspects.

It doesn't matter whether it was 1 or 1 million, it doesn't make either act any less horrific.

Of course it does.

I take matters regarding paganism and the like very seriously and find ignorance of it offensive

On the contrary, you seem to gleefully inform, which was why I shared an interesting fact in return. You find others knowing something you feel is related to paganism that you don't, offensive.

Which leads me to the next one.

... its rare that anybody ever stands up to defend us or our history.

If this is in reference to the Spanish Inquisition, I'd argue that it isn't part of your religion's history, neopaganism is inspired by older religions, not a continuation of them.

So when a topic is started about, or turns to, the subject of paganism, and I see points that are brought up by those less knowledgeable, I try my best to clarify it.

This can't be right, you don't have the information to say so, heck, this very thread would suggest otherwise.

And most of what TStone said, just wondering how much I could point out with one post.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by Sakred_Winter

That all is really very touching, TStone. I wish I could've been a part of this along time ago.

But I haven't, and I'm sorry.

That's okay Winter..

Thank you for 'getting' it anyway..

It is hard for some people to grasp, how tight we really are here..

There are members of this forum, I would go to the ends of the Earth for, if they needed me. It's hard to find friends like these, and anyone of these lovely freaks here, would be welcome to crash on my couch, ANY day..



No hard feelings on anyone's part.

Your mind is a welcome addition here as well..

[Disfunction]

The "special edition" made it too irresistable to not post.

[Rosie]

Wicca is defined as a subset of Paganism. It's just as much part of it as Asatru or Hellenic Recronstructionism is. There is indeed a definition of Paganism, too. Paganism is defined as any non-mainstream world religion, that generally (but not always) is polytheist, and often focused on earth based idealogies.

But preventing extreme hair color, make up, piercings, and accessories that could be considered dangerous or used as weapons in a fight, I can clearly see them banning.

Extreme hair colour, why? My red hair is very much apart of me. I don't have it out of rebellion or any such thing, I just love having it. Not that there's anything wrong with questioning norms.

What damage is pink hair going to do? It's only because we're not desensitised to such innocent things that it's an issue. If someone wears a pink t-shirt I hardly see how it's idfferent, yes it stands out because it's extreme for a "hair colour", but past initial impressions there's no way it can possibly be more than the slightest bit distracting if it's an acceptable norm.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Rosie

Wicca is defined as a subset of Paganism. It's just as much part of it as Asatru or Hellenic Recronstructionism is. There is indeed a definition of Paganism, too. Paganism is defined as any non-mainstream world religion, that generally (but not always) is polytheist, and often focused on earth based idealogies.

Well, it does depend on how it is used, since words are defined by usage, not etymology.

Generally though, yeah, you have a point, he isn't really wrong on that one per say, certainly not by an authoritive source on usage - although I'd argue that paganism lacks a definition of any non-mainstream world religion, it's non-Chritian quite specifically.

[Rosie]

It's also not Islamic or Jewish. It's pretty much non-Abrahamic, going with the original christian definition of it.

Pagan actually means "Person of the town", I believe. The original thinking was that Pagans were "civilians" but the Christians were "Soldiers of God", which has a really nice ring to it.

[ExistentialDisorder]

And with all of that, still no one can really live up to the challenge. Well, almost no one. Let’s recap.

First off, I'd like to apologize for the delay in posting my rebuttal rant. I wanted to get it out last night, but there was so much to reply to, it took me a while to do so, and I still have a life, all be it not much of one, a house to maintain, cats to keep in check, and a job that I work 7 days a week. So I'm sure by my silence, some have assumed I went sulking away with my tail tucked between my legs and my thumb up my ass. Heh, no such luck.

I’ll apologize in advance of any condescending, self-righteous, better-than-tho, preaching, etc etc vibes anybody might take from this, as that’s not my goal at all. I’m just replying as best I can in similar taste and style as has been dished out to me by certain individuals. So...

(Because this is so long, I'm having to post it in multiple parts. Otherwise the site freezes when I try all at once. So bare with me, and please refrain from any replies until I've posted the last part.)

Evenly space for the hard-of-reading and/or hung-over, if applicable.

To start, I want to briefly address TStone on this:

Originally Posted by TStone

... I also find it interesting that you can take a thing like appropriate school dress, and turn it into your personal platform against alternate religions.

I quote here, where I first mentioned - briefly - the subject of religion being used as a means of discrimination against appropriate school attire.

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

Ok, I read something very similar just the other day, about a 16 year old boy in CA who was suspended from his school because of the way he was dressed, which the school claimed was distracting. He and his mother countered the school and the school board with religious discrimination, claiming that his style of dress was reflective of his and his mothers wiccan religion. Personally, I've never read anything in any wiccan rede where it states you must wear a 12" pink mohawk and paint your eyelids purple and pink, but, whatever. The fact that he was using his religion as grounds for his discrimination I personally think is bullshit, but it won him the case in the end and the school was forced to allow him back in.

Now if you want to get real technical about it, religion was first brought up with this short statement, back on page one:

Originally Posted by soggypicklemuncher

Oh, also, in the Hamilton City School District, "occult" or "satanic" symbols are not allowed, which means even wiccans are not allowed to wear pentacles. That's some bullshit there.

Now that I’ve addressed that, I’ll move on. There’s plenty more I have to say in regards to TStone’s comments a little later on, heh, trust me, but first...

From Rosie

Originally Posted by Rosie

Wicca is defined as a subset of Paganism.

It's just as much part of it as Asatru or Hellenic Recronstructionism is.

There is indeed a definition of Paganism, too. [/quote]

Yes, Rosie, there is. And thank you very much for helping to point that out. At least there’s one other voice around here that seems to know something about what they post. Let's see what our friends over at Dictionary.com have to
say about Paganism, since nobody here seems to want to take my word for it.

DEFINITION OF PAGAN
ref: http://www.dictionary.com

pa-gan
n.

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.

adj.

1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, let's look at what Wicca is, according to our friends at dictionary.com:

DEFINITION OF WICCA
ref: http://www.dictionary.com

Wic-ca
n.

1. A polytheistic Neo-Pagan nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.

2. A group or community of believers or followers of this religion.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

But preventing extreme hair color, make up, piercings, and accessories that could be considered dangerous or used as weapons in a fight, I can clearly see them banning.

Extreme hair colour, why? My red hair is very much apart of me. I don't have it out of rebellion or any such thing, I just love having it. Not that there's anything wrong with questioning norms.

What damage is pink hair going to do? It's only because we're not desensitised to such innocent things that it's an issue. If someone wears a pink t-shirt I hardly see how it's idfferent, yes it stands out because it's extreme for a "hair colour", but past initial impressions there's no way it can possibly be more than the slightest bit distracting if it's an acceptable norm.[/quote]

I did not say I agreed with this, Rosie. I apologize for you having thought so. Let me clarify:

Originally Posted by Sakred_Winter

Recently, I began the schoolyear at Bloomfield Jr/Sr High School. And one of the things that caught my eyes under the student dress-code is that any dress that is 'distracting' is banned including, but not limited to mind you the 'gothic' style of dress.

I did not say I agreed with this, I repeat. I said I can clearly see them banning it. And to clarify, in reference to Sakred_Winter's statement, which I have quoted above, it is considered an unnecessary distraction, which is why I can see them banning it. That does not mean that it makes it right, or that I think it makes it right. Understanding something and agreeing with something are two very different things.

(Continued...)

[ExistentialDisorder]

PART TWO:

Now
From Peter:

Originally Posted by Peter

Except the wiccans who worship the one God (including the ones who don't worship the same one god as the Christians depending on which meaning of pagan you use) as two aspects.

Uhm, not possible. One god as two aspects = two gods = polytheistic. I think what you're trying to refer to here is the God and the Goddess joining to become one. Let's refer, once again, back to the definition of Wicca.

DEFINITION OF WICCA
ref: http://www.dictionary.com

Wic-ca
n.

1. A polytheistic Neo-Pagan nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.

2. A group or community of believers or followers of this religion.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Wiccans are polytheistic, meaning they believe in multiple gods and/or goddesses. Which means they can't worship one god. Well they could, but then they would not be true Wiccans. There are Wiccans who primarily worship one god, example, Pan Wiccans, but they still acknowledge other gods and goddesses as being such, which technically makes them polytheistic. Christians, Muslims and Jewish are all monotheistic, meaning the belief in only one True God.
Now there are Christians who practice Wicca and other forms of witch craft, but these are not exactly Wiccans. I have a friend who considers himself to be Wiccan because he secretly practices witchcraft. (Why he feels he must be so secretive about it is his business). But he still goes to church (not regularly tho), believes in Jesus, etc etc. He admits that he's not really true Wiccan.
To be a Christian and a true Wiccan, makes about as much sense as being a Christian and a Jew, or a Muslim and a Christian. Just doesn't really work both ways. And this is why I refered to them as 'true Wiccans', in hopes of differentiating between the two. But apparently that didn't work. Of course, I'll add here that this is subject to interpretation and various personal opinions, but you can research it briefly on dictionary.com under the Encyclopedia tab, as well as a myriad of other site, encyclopedias and other sources, and draw your own conclusions. You might start at witchvox.com for example.

Originally Posted by Peter

Of course it does.

Really? Please explain. How is one any less horrific than the other? With those four little words, of course it does, you make it sound as tho because they were not of a dominant religion it makes their suffering insignificant.
At least, that's what I gather from your statement.

Originally Posted by Peter

On the contrary, you seem to gleefully inform, which was why I shared an interesting fact in return. You find others knowing something you feel is related to paganism that you don't, offensive.

That is your assumption. Might I add, a prejudice one at that. Yes, at times I do gleefully inform. I don't see where that is contrary. Believe it or not, which I'm sure you probably don't, I rarely ever discuss religion because it almost always gives way to argument and ill will, such as this entire thread has proven.

What is contrary tho, is the idea that I'm offended by someone else knowing something about paganism that I don't. That couldn't be further from the truth. I welcome new knowledge, if its presented in an intelligent manner, and if its in fact true. I've never claimed to be an expert on any religion, or anything, for that matter. Nobody can claim that, regardless of what religion he or she professes, because all religions mean something different to everybody. The problem comes when someone tries saying something is true when it is obviously not and I'm attacked when I try to prove to them otherwise. That is what I find offensive.

Originally Posted by Peter

If this is in reference to the Spanish Inquisition...

Stop right there.
It's not.

Honestly, I wasn't even thinking about the Spanish Inquisition, or any other Inquisition, when I made that statement. At least not specifically. I was refering to the constant degradation and blame that people in general, of all manner and creed, tend to place on wiccans and pagans and any other religion or way of life that looks to the Pentacle as a sacred symbol.Which I thought you would have understood when I began with this:

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

We're constantly displayed by the media and churches to be everything from devil worshippers to murderers to r a p i s t s and theives...

...and continued with this:

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

While its true that there are some who falsly call themselves pagan that practice the dark arts, most pagans are peaceful people who don't even believe in the devil, much less worship it, and who would give their own lives before ever even considering harming another. Yet we're the ones that get accused of being evil.

And it is that same mentality of accusation that perpetuates actions like this:

Originally Posted by soggypicklemuncher

Oh, also, in the Hamilton City School District, "occult" or "satanic" symbols are not allowed, which means even wiccans are not allowed to wear pentacles. That's some bullshit there.

Not only would I argue heavily that the Hamilton City School District is in clear violation of the freedom of religion, which it is quite clearly and needs to be challenged, I’d also say that a good majority of satanists use the pentagram, which is an inverted Pentacle - the 5th point of the star pointing down. The inverted Pentacle often represents the goat's head, which represents Satan. But your average ill-informed citizen doesn't recognize the difference between a Pentacle and a pentagram, thanks to our churches, schools, and especially the media - meaning movies and television, as well as news, news papers, magazines, etc - because to them a star within a circle is symbolic of evil.
Which I will also add, and reiterate, that evil is a point of view. Nothing more.
Satanists also use inverted crosses and crucifixes, to represent the anti-christ, though I have never actually seen that, that I can recall, in the predominant, established religion of Satanism, which was in fact established as an official religion by Anton Sander Lavey who wrote the Satanic bible. Inverted crucifixes are however, used in various cults that claim to be satanic.
And just as a complete side thought here, Laveyan Satanists don’t even worship Satan, or any other deity. They don’t practice sacrifices or go around butchering things. They basically worship themselves and commonly believe that life should be lived to its fullest potential because once it’s over there is nothing else. One of their most common philosophies reads something like “Smite me and be smited back ten fold.” It’s a very interesting read, the Satanic bible.

But, I'm straying.

(Continued...)

[ExistentialDisorder]

PART THREE:

As I was saying, when I made that statement you quoted Peter, I did not have any specific Inquisition or event in mind, yet you accuse me of feeding something into a statement that was not there to begin with, much less falsely interpreting it. But since you bring up the Spanish Inquisition...

Originally Posted by Peter

I'd argue that it isn't part of your religion's history, neopaganism is inspired by older religions, not a continuation of them.

And I'd argue that Neopaganism and Paganism go hand-in-hand. Neopaganism being a revival, of a sort, of the old Pagan customs. It is more than just 'inspired by.' Paganism has never gone away entirely. Saying that it's inspired by, suggests that its a completely seperate form of belief or religion that just borrows aspects from the old world Pagan traditions, when truthfully, its much more than that. Through the middle ages and medieval periods it was hushed up for fear of persecution and practiced in secrecy, due in large part to all the Inquisitions, not just the Spanish. So technically speaking, tho some practices and beliefs have altered over time, there is no real, solid difference between Paganism of the old world and Neopaganism of today, other than, perhaps, that it is interpreted much more diversely now than before.

I want to say Peter, that I don’t try to blatantly discredit your views or opinions. All I’m doing is holding you to the same rules of factuality that you and everyone else here holds me to. If you have something to say then please say it, and I will listen and be totally objective, just like everybody else here should be. But just make sure that you have the proof to back it up, and that its not just a matter of hear-say, which a lot of what you’ve been saying in regards to religion, at least in this thread, is exactly that.

Now,
Back to TStone.
(And here is where I can’t help but get just a little rude. After all, what goes around comes around).

Originally Posted by TStone

Thing one.

Yep, got me there. Sorry, can't help it, especially when I see ignorance and arrogance displayed so prominantly.
But you had your chance to let it all go, back when I said that. But no sir, had to be mr. smarty pants. That Alpha Male syndrome kicked in and you couldn't help but make snide little comments like this:

Originally Posted by TStone

What part of lick my ball sack did you not understand?

When I had in fact NOT said shit else in direction or relation to you, until after you made that snide little comment, which was then followed, by me, with, as you quoted:

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

ah, *puke*
is everybody done sucking stone's dick?
Oh wait, I think you missed a drop.
~E.D.

Which, granted, I will admit was rather juvenile and uncalled for. Or as EPS stated more specifically, “Gee, that was classy.”
I’ll call it irritation, from wading through a half dozen posts of people all praising you for your little parental speech; the same people who’ve been reading all along yet not one of them stood up to either back up anything I’d said, nor call you out for the very same things you blame on me. I’ll reference here my previous statement on that alpha male syndrome.
And as if all of that wasn't enough, you had to continue with this:

Originally Posted by TStone

So if you’re new and sitting there wondering why all the comradely between us, and why you haven’t earned instant success and respect after your twenty-eighth-whinny-self-serving-egotistical-lame-assed fucking post?

History.
And the fact that you’re a goddamn whiney fucking shit doesn’t help you out either.

That is all.

Moving on.

Originally Posted by TStone

Thing two.

I never did. So what’s your point?

Originally Posted by TStone

Originally Posted by TStone

Thing three.

This is such an idiotic, pathetic statement, it doesn’t even rank as being worthy of mention, except to point out that it takes somebody such as yourself, with your level of maturity and ability to conduct a civilized conversation, in order to make such a statement. Since obviously my statement, in a completely different thread, “what is and is not shit” was in reference to literature or pieces of writing submitted for critique. Critiques, once again, being largely based on personal opinion. Enough said.

Originally Posted by TStone

Thing four, again.

Peter didn’t imply anything, he stated an interesting fact. He even stated it as such.

The hell he didn't!
NO, he did not INTENTIONALLY imply that witch hunts never took place in the US or UK. It is the CONTEXT in which the statement is made. Especially with today's world-wide ignorance of exactly what paganism, wicca, the occult, etc, etc, is, statements such as this help to purpetuate the notion that already exists in many people's mind, if they know anything about it at all, which is the pursecution and execution of witches and pagans throughout history. People falsely believing that the witch hunts didn't happen. So when they read or hear statements to the effect of 'witch burnings across the usa are historical revisionists,' it helps to further impact the fallacy that their persecutions never took place.

Is that plain enough english for you?

(Continued...)

[ExistentialDisorder]

PART FOUR:

Originally Posted by TStone

You, if you go back up to the sixth quote I posted, will clearly see who is and is not implying everything.

How about instead, YOU, read the next quote, along with what follows, and we'll < quote > clearly see who is and who is not implying everything.< end quote >

Originally Posted by TStone

And a side note, I also find it interesting that you can take a thing like appropriate school dress, and turn it into your personal platform against alternate religions.

Hey fucktard, how about you scroll your happy ass back to post #51 - that'd be the very first post on page 2 - and see just how the topic of religion was first mentioned in this thread. Can't count that far? I'll quote it for ya:

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

Ok, I read something very similar just the other day, about a 16 year old boy in CA who was suspended from his school because of the way he was dressed, which the school claimed was distracting. He and his mother countered the school and the school board with religious discrimination, claiming that his style of dress was reflective of his and his mothers wiccan religion. Personally, I've never read anything in any wiccan rede where it states you must wear a 12" pink mohawk and paint your eyelids purple and pink, but, whatever. The fact that he was using his religion as grounds for his discrimination I personally think is bullshit, but it won him the case in the end and the school was forced to allow him back in.

I even underlined the sentence that expresses my personal opinion on the matter.
Now if you want to get real technical about it, religion was first brought up with this simple little quote, back on page one:

Originally Posted by soggypicklemuncher

Oh, also, in the Hamilton City School District, "occult" or "satanic" symbols are not allowed, which means even wiccans are not allowed to wear pentacles. That's some bullshit there.

And just so you have proof for thine own eyes to read, http://www.whittierdailynews.com/Sto...813235,00.html is a link to the exact article that I was referencing when I personally mentioned Wicca.
And it wasn't mentioned again until PETER quoted what I just quoted to you, and brought up the subject of religion. Here's THAT part.

Originally Posted by Peter

See, now this is interesting to me, because if you can take "pagan" as a religion and then not define when religious holidays are and stuff couldn't you just .. well, do what the Wiccans used to do and make shit up as they go along and call it "being eclectic"

Which I countered with this:

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

Uhm, pagan holidays are defined. Shall I present you with a list? Christmas is a pagan holiday. A stolen one, but pagan none
the less

Because this:

Originally Posted by Peter

...if you can take "pagan" as a religion and then not define when religious holidays are and stuff couldn't you just .. well, do what the Wiccans used to do and make shit up as they go along and call it "being eclectic"

is an ignorant, uneducated statement.

(Honestly, no offense to you personally Peter, but really... did you even research that? like, ever? Even a little teeny bit?... Didn't think so...)

Originally Posted by TStone

...as if Christianity was the largest religion in the world...

I think this is my favorite one. Ha!

Christianity is the largest religion in the world, ya fuckin' moron! What, don't believe me? See for yourself. http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
An estimated 33% of the world's population is Christian, or roughly 2.1 Billion - count'em, one-two-two point one B,B,B,Billion, making Christianity THE LARGEST RELIGION IN THE WORLD! With Islam falling in at 2nd place, which is an estimated 21% of the worlds population, or 1.2 billion and *drumroll please*.... HINDUISM! Yes, ladies and gents, Hinduism would be the correct answer there, following (not so) close behind at 14% of the world's population, or a mere 900 Million.

Of course, by all means, you are welcome to try finding another site or reference point that suggests the numbers are different. Even still, they won't be that different.

And your ignorance continues with this:

Originally Posted by TStone

...and the culprit of your every fucking woe…it’s not

Now, before I continue, I want to volunteer some background information on myself and my family, since I'm being accused here, as well as in previous posts in this thread, of being completely anti Christian, which I am not, contrary to what you may or may not feed into this entire discussion. My grandmother was raised Roman Catholic - born and raised right there smack in the middle of Florence Italy. She was booted from the Catholic church because #1, she didn't marry another Catholic and #2 she refused to indoctrine (her exact word, not mine) her children into the Roman Catholic belief system. Instead she married a Protestant (who later - much later - became a mormon) and she allowed her children to choose their own religion. My mother came from that family, and raised her children (4 total) in the same manner, to allow us freedom of religion, instead of trying to force us into a specific set of beliefs, like so many children of most religions are forced at an early age into specific sets of religious beliefs. By the time they reach an age where they can actually think and reason for themselves on any kind of serious level, they are so accustom to the ways of their family that they don't know anything else - and in a lot of cases downright fear the thought of questioning anything different. I am open-minded enough to accept and respect the fact that Christians follow very different religious beliefs, some much more devout than others. The thing that pisses me off about it all - the one true motive behind it - is that Fundamental Christians try forcing their beliefs and morals down our throats and automatically cast asside anything that might differ from said beliefs and morals as being an abomination or heresy, for lack of a better word.

Anyway, now that that's out of the way, I'll continue.

You're right, its not [Christianity] the culprit of my every fucking woe, but quite a few of them. Let's go through a few, shall we?

Christianity is the reason I can't go downtown, or anywhere else in the state of South Carolina, and get a tattoo.*

Christianity is the reason I can't buy beer, wine or any other alcoholic beverage, TO INCLUDE RUBBING ALCOHOL OR FUCKING LISTERINE, on Sundays.**

Christianity is the reason I can't shop at wal-mart or any other department store before 1pm or after 6pm on Sundays (except for Richland County).

Christianity is the reason EVERY liquor store in the state has to be marked with THREE giant red dots displayed prominantly in front of the building and on all sides of the building that face public access routes in order to inform the christian public that, yes folks, this place sells liquor.

Christianity is the reason that liquor stores can ONLY sell liquor. They can't sell tobacco, or bread, or hot dogs or lolipops, they can't even sell non-alcoholic mixers. Liquor Only. (but some do anyway).

And, among (many, many) other things,

Christianity is the reason that gay men and women can't marry each other. And no, I'm sorry, but civil unions are NOT the same as marriage, regardless of how you color it. They don't provide the same benefits or securities that marriage provides. But I'm not even gonna try getting into all that right now.

Christianity is the reason that until not all that long ago, homosexuality, and any sexual act considered 'deviant' by the Church - regardless of your sexual orientation - came with a prison sentence. Yes, as recent as the early 90's, possibly even more recently than that, people from all walks of life, both gay and straight, were actually being arrested for things like consentual sodomy. And where does the term sodomy come from boys and girls? Sodom and Gamora would be the correct answer. You know, the two cities famous for 'Sin' in the bible? It was, I believe, until a case went to court in Kentucky, I think it was, or possibly Tennessee, where a man discovered his (adult) son was gay and decided to get all mr. morality on everybody and had him and his lover prosecuted for sodomy. The kid fought tooth and nail and eventually managed to get the law taken off the books. BUT, you might want to look that one up, as I am not 100% sure on this one, if it is in fact the case that abolished the sodomy law. And it is possible that the law was only removed from that state. It's been quite a while (years) since I heard the story so I may be a little off on my facts there.

(Continued...)

[ExistentialDisorder]

PART FIVE:

Shall I continue?

Now, with all due respect, and logic, unless you have ever lived in or spent any significant amount of time in the state of South Carolina, then you of course would have no true knowledge of, or reason to know, most of the statements made above. I only present them to you because, well, you suggested Christianity causes me no true woes. And I am sure other people living in this state and other states with similar "Blue Laws" and Christian preachings, commonly refered to as the bible belt here in the south, can attest to other colorful parts of their livelihood which the church - in its glorious wisdom and unending quest to indoctrinate all those that it comes in contact with - has intruded upon and pilfered away.

A couple of notes on aforementioned laws: (note asterisks)

*Thankfully the artists in this state have gotten that one ALMOST overturned, but the soonest we'll hear anything about it again will be sometime in November, if then.

**With the exception that in some counties resturants and private bars/nightclubs can sell alcoholic beverages only if they have bought a Sunday Liquor License, which costs $1,500 per Sunday, (last I checked, which hasn't been since I was in the resturant/bar line of employment. Could be a little more or a little less now) and can ONLY be purchased on the previous Friday before 5:00 p.m. for the Sunday that follows. Every Friday. Can't buy 2 or 3 or 10 at a time. Want to sell alcohol that Sunday? You better get your license that Friday. Not Thursday, not Wednesday, not Saturday, FRIDAY. Don't believe me? Look it up, or ask anybody else that lives in the state of South Caro-fuckin-lina.

So suck on them apples for a while, how'bout.

Moving on...

Originally Posted by TStone

....and I’ve even read some numbers recently that slant Paganism as the largest *growing* religion in the world.

Uhm, considering Paganism is NOT one specific religion, get your facts straight. It's far more likely your numbers read that Wicca is the largest growing religion in the world, (once again I'll say, not every Pagan is Wiccan) which I still find hard to believe, but it's possible. I have never read anything that proves or disproves that statement. So, prove it. Where did you read this? Got a website link or a library reference I might look up?

Even still, the aformentioned website statistics lists NeoPaganism at roughly 1 million, so even if it were Paganism that you got your numbers from, at 1 million, verses 2.1 Billion, I'd say we've got some hellatious catching up to do, in order to ever even consider ranking at the #1 spot, which is, afterall, what you suggested when you put "growing" between the asterisks now, isn't it?

Originally Posted by TStone

That’s the really funny thing, your constant accusations, about everything, and if you just stopped one damn second to think about what you were saying…

oh, you mean like how you stop and think about everything you're saying, like right here? (see above).

Originally Posted by TStone

you see yourself guilty of the very same thing.

Guilty of what, exactly? Speaking the truth as often as possible? Trying to enlighten my brothers and sisters whenever the untruth or misinformed is spoken? I don't mind being guilty of that. But I'm no preacher, or expert. Nor do I try to pretend that I am, and if it ever seems like that then I truly apologize. In all seriousness, I might not be 100% accurate 100% of the time, but I make damned sure that what I say is as close to accurate as I can get before I say it. Unlike... you? for example...

I'm enjoying this... Can ya tell?


On to thing Five.
Yes, you first.
No, you.
No, please. You first. I insist.

Originally Posted by TStone

...Yeah, and that’s why a child needs to either have a legal guardian present in court...

Uh.... yeeeaaaahhhhh....... which I stated right here:

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

Children's rights are limited, but they still in fact have rights that are... upheld by all courts... And in a lot of cases parents have to be brought in to make decisions for the child(ren).

You even quoted it yourself, before you went on with your babble. (Originally typo'd to read blabble, I changed it. But I proly should'a left it. More fitting...)

Originally Posted by TStone

...you just disregard his statement and him as…being full of it.

No, absolutely not true. I have read several posts by Loy and appreciate the majority of what he has to say. In fact this is the only instance I can recall that I disagreed with his statement. To disagree with a statement is not to dismiss the one who stated it. All I ask for is proof. Show me where it is written in law, spelled out - not interpreted - that children have zero rights according to the Supreme Court, or any court in the US for that matter, and I will withdraw my statement and apologize to Loy personally.

Originally Posted by TStone

And here we go back to a previous statement by you, of how respectful and mature you are...

HA!

But wait a second…hold the fucking presses, didn’t you say this…

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

In most states, if not all, body piercings that go beyond the ear lobes are illegal under the age of 18 anyway. So even with a parent's concent, I don't see them standing up in a court of law.~E.D.

[/quote]

That looks like my signature there, yep. I said it. And I'll clarify it for you. Remember everyone, this was part of a rather lengthy post in response to Sakred_Winter's complaint about being discriminated against by her school for her piercings and general style of dress - which is suppose to be what this entire thread is about.

Originally Posted by TStone

So…even with legal guardian representation, you’re saying the kid still hasn’t got any rights.

No, [i]fucktard,[/] as you so eloquently love to call me. You're once again trying to twist shit around to make it seem as tho I'm either contradicting myself, or just don't know what the hell I'm talking about. So 'for to' clarify for you, my dear mentally challenged forum chum, I made that statement in light of the idea that even as adults, piercings that go beyond the earlobes are not looked on as generally acceptable by American society's standards, and even then, ear piercings on a woman is/are much more acceptable than piercings of any kind on a man. Therefore, if a case of discrimination regarding a teenage girl and her lip piercing, or most any other kind of piercing, made it into a court, I find it doubtful, even with a parent's consent of said piercing, that the court would rule in favor of the child. This has nothing to do with whether or not a child has rights in a court. Its a simple case of the mentality of your common citizen in today's day and age, all be it a judge, who are usually - but not always - older, more conservative individuals, most-likely frowning apon a lip piercing on a teenage girl. Afterall, how many times have any of us had to remove certain visible piercings for a job interview, or meeting with someone higher up the totem pole?

Example: I use to have my septum pierced. Last summer I went on so many job interviews where I had to take the thing out, that after a while I forgot about it and it closed up. So once again, the above statement had zero to do with child rights and more to do with what is generally deemed acceptable appearance. That doesn't make the discrimination right, but it doesn't help anything either. Nor, I might add, does my statement state possitively that it would or would not hold up in court, since nobody can be the judge of that, other than the judge.

(Continued...)

[ExistentialDisorder]

PART SIX:

Originally Posted by TStone

Oh man, oh fucking hell, there’s that contradictory air of supremacy from you again.

Oh.... really?..... Air of supremacy, you say? You mean like this?

Originally Posted by TStone

You would understand the duality of that statement, if you had any clue as to what YOU were about as a person, and not what you were going about as a writer.

Now you'd read maybe, what... a half dozen posts from me by that point, if that many. Yet you are so bold as to make said statement, as tho you had a fucking clue who I am, much less how I write or what I write about.
Or maybe, this?

Originally Posted by TStone

In a more serious tone, why don't the two of you go burn a fucking candle, say your prayers to the fire god of the south, blessed be you fawker you, because he's answered your prayers and delivered me, unto you, fuck yeah!

You stated yourself, “In a more serious tone,” right there.
RIGHT FUCKING THERE! That ‘He’s’ answered our prayers by delivering you unto us.

Uhm, contradictory... what?
Air of supremacy... who?

Nah, couldn’t be....

Ooh, what about this?

Originally Posted by TStone

I see it’s time for the annual pontification on the craft of writing.
So be it.

Ye who is the god of writing, The Almighty Master of prose. Afterall, that's exactly what that post implies you think of yourself. I can see you now, making that statement, casually snorting and clearing your throat as you adjust your tie and step up to the microphone. Much like Manson in his 'mOBSCENE' video. Only the difference is... Manson has earned it. Until your mug is on the cover of a magazine - a real magazine - and your 'prose' can be found in most any book store across the nation, if not around the world, I think you need to sit the fuck down and chill the fuck out. I've watched you speak to just about everybody on this forum as tho they're beneath you, as tho its a waste of your precious time to post a reply, as tho you're so fucking offended they dare strike the keys for your oh so wary eyes to pass over.

Or what about this?

Originally Posted by TStone

I remember corresponding with Robert Weinberg on this issue some time ago...

Ah, casually mentioning some famous - or maybe not so famous - author or editor's name and refering to a past conversation with said individual, for those newcomers to read and be awed by. Its not what's said exactly, but how you say it, and how you pre-empt and follow it. Not to mention, you could just as easily have said something to the effect of, "I remember corresponding with a friend," or "a fellow author/writer," or any number of references to said individual. But no, you had to put his name in there.
Not just a first name either, but his full name, as if to imply you rub shoulders with so many famous names and that is but one of the many.
Talk about a fucking superiority complex.
I couldn't give two shits about how many famous authors, editors, publishers, journalists, news casters, actors, producers, playwrites, deities, sex fiends, hypocrites, whores, drug addicts, (fill in the blank), that you know, talk to, work with, play with, have fucked, will fuck or have fantasized about fucking. (pitty them. *shiver*). You are still just a man and nothing more. You still have to eat, sleep, drink, shit and breathe just like me, and everybody else on this forum and in this world. Which means, fuckface, that you owe me, and everybody else, the common courtesy, decency and respect as a human being that I or anybody else here would equally give you or any stranger walking down the street. Yeah, you've earned your camaraderie with the long-time members of this forum, and you've all helped each other out through hard times, and that's all well and good, and I praise the blessing of friends, but you, little man, don't earn shit from me or anyone else when you try to belittle people the way you do in your comments and posts. The way anybody whose ever read more than two posts from you can clearly see. Hell, I've only been on here a week, if that, and I can see it. I could see it from day one, way before you ever said the first word to me, or about me, or about anything I've posted. You have an alpha male complex that hates to be challenged by anything or anyone. There's drugs for that, tho. But it’s nothing that a swift kick in the ass, or two, or ten, won't cure.

I will give you one thing, Thomas. Mixed in there with all that attitude and belittling that spews out of your mouth a dozen times a day, that stems from probably who knows what sort of twisted, demented, psychotic, repressed shit from your childhood that'd make the likes of Stephen King cringe, you do have some valid points that could be considered good advice, especially to new authors, and I am sure you speak from at least some experience. I even read your 500 word short story the other day. It really wasn't half bad. Honest. Dare I even say rather touching, to a point. But you fuck it up, your words of good wisdom and advice, and bury it deep down with all that shit to the point that it’s lost because nobody with any ounce of self respect is going to sit and listen to your mockery, much less give anything you have to say any sort of noteworthiness. All that anger and aggression is really not healthy man. Seriously. It eats away at your insides until eventually it kills you. Not to mention it does you no good as far as your reputation as a writer in the real world is concerned. Maybe here with your little cronies it wins you brownie points, but in the real world, try talking to your readers that way. See just how far it gets you.

My suggestion, not that you give a shit about my suggestion, but I'm giving it to you anyway, (especially since you so freely hand yours out like business cards), is to channel some of that aggression into your writing. Man, it'd make for one hell of a read, no doubt.

As for myself. I am supreme unto no body, nor is anybody supreme unto me. To include - yes - even you, Thomas Stone.

(Continued...)

[ExistentialDisorder]

PART SEVEN: (FINAL)

Thing Six.

**Can I Get A Drum Roll Please!**

Originally Posted by TStone

The English word pagan is from the Latin paganus or someone who lives in a rural district, or pagus. In Latin, the word meant a villager or rustic, and was also used as an antonym for miles, or soldier.
The term appears in English in the 14th century. In English usage, it means a non-Christian, or someone who is not a soldier of Christ, a sense that had developed in the Latin by the 4th century AD.
…So I guess you were wrong about being created BY the Catholics?

Maybe you meant adopted by? Nah, you meant created…

There you go again, pretending you know who the fuck I am, what the fuck I'm about and what the fuck I meant.
You don't know shit about me.
I repeat.
You Don't Know A Mother Fucking Thing About Me.
Only what I let you know. And that is all.

Yes, I'll give you that. I was wrong. I repeat I was WRONG, god dammit. I'll scream it from the fucking roof tops. I used the word Created, instead of the word Adapted. To the heavens above, if there is a God strike me down! Oh, Lord, Strike Me Down, Strike Me Down! I used the wrong word!

Guess what.
In my most even, unemotional voice.
It still means what it fucking means.

And if that was all you had listed in your oh-so-cleaverly plotted out retort to my challenge of finding something that I was wrong about, then I wouldn't have written a single fuckin’ word here. But no, you had to keep goin’, didn’t ya? Had to keep pluggin’ away, scrounging for any little bit of something you could find in attempts to try making me look like the idiot, yet everything else you pointed out I proved you wrong on.

I knew exactly what I'd made a mistake on before I even posted my request for a challenge, just wondering if you'd figure it out. Well hot damn buddy, ya did. Congrats! Now don't you feel all *[i]spiffy*[/i}?

Originally Posted by TStone

Thing seven, and I like this one only because it shows your contradictory nature :}

Well?
I'm waiting?
Was that a brainfart you had there? Or...
ah...
I see what you're trying to do.

Yeah, just leave off the rest of that whole paragraph why don't ya, so that it reads as tho I first stated he's missing some things, then immediately follow to say he's 100% correct. A monkey wouldn't even be so stupid as to contradict himself in the same thought pattern that way. Come on. Is that the kind of respect you have for your fellow forum members that read this?
Hey, how about you once again, not Clintonize it to your advantage, and instead post the whole damned thought for a change.
Ladies and gentleman, I present to you the full statement:

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

Specifically relating to Star Of Blight's post, I agree with a lot of your points. However there are some things that you're missing. First off, you are right, 100%, that the gay community brings a lot of hardship down on themselves by their actions. They irritate me too in a lot of ways. But I see both sides of it. After so many countless years of oppression, violence and ignorance against them, they had to make themselves heard in a big way. Have you, or anyone here for that matter, ever heard of Stonewall?

This was near the beginning of a response I posted in the "Thoughts On Gay Marriage" thread, in the General forum. One of the first posts I made. Granted, after writing out all of what I had to say on the subject of said quote, I didn't continue on with the other points that I was originally going to make. My bad. But I figured I'd already gone on long enough for one post and would let somebody else have a swing at it before I continued. Plus I was tired and wanted sleep. I just haven't gotten back to it, and for what its worth, nobody's said anything since my post in that thread, if anybody's even read it thus far.
Of course you can bet TStone has read it in his relentless digging, digging, digging efforts to find anything he can to discredit or disprove whatever it is I might have to say. Even if it means twisting shit around to make it fit whatever point he's trying to make about me. Do you really think I'm so fucking brain dead I wouldn't catch that little trick? Now see, that's insulting.
You know what, you've done this so many times now, I'm coining a new phrase. No longer will I use the term 'Clintonize' any time I see blatantly misconstrued statements manipulated around to fit something that a said individual is trying to fabricate. From now on it will be 'TStone-ize.' Kind'a has a nice ring to it, don't ya think?
Moving on...

Originally Posted by TStone

Thing eight, another contradiction.

Of course it’s fine if everyone else doesn’t agree with you, because that just proves how stupid they are in your own little world.

It's called jovial sarcasm, buck-o. You know what that word means, right? Sarcasm? 'Course you do. You probably wrote the fuckin’ book on it.
I don't think of anybody as being stupid, since you try here to feed that word so nonchalantly into my statement. I can't recall a single instance, ever in my life, that I've actually thought somebody was stupid. That's just plain damn wrong to say or think of somebody. Ignorant of the truth and possibilities, maybe, or misinformed, but never stupid. Humans are extremely intelligent beings - yes, even you Thomas Stone - limited only by what we will and will not allow ourselves to know and experience.

Originally Posted by TStone

But mostly, I see you as someone with a very high opinion of yourself, and you believe your opinion is totally relevant, if not wholly significant, to the rest of humanity.

A high opinion of myself? HA! Hardly.
Maybe on some aspects. I have a high opinion of my overall character, in that I never bow to self-appointed authority figures (a-hem); in that I do not follow trends, common practices, or beliefs just because it’s the way that everybody else does things; in that I treat others, individually, as I am treated by them, and the fact that I've made it a point my entire life never to lie to, or deceive anybody deliberately, because I was taught early on by my mother that to lie to somebody deliberately is the ultimate form of disrespect and betrayal and is completely unforgivable, regardless of the reasons why.

As for my opinions being significant and relevant? Yes, that's human nature. Hardly wholly significant tho. But, don't we all consider our personal opinions significant and relevant to humanity and the rest of the world? If not, then why would we share them with anybody else? Why then would we even have opinions to begin with? I know, let's all be sheep and play follow the leader! I deem you the leader....

hmmm....

not.

Originally Posted by TStone

In another place, another time, I can see you on the TV, shilling the lord for cash.
You have that same mindset and personality.

Right.

I said it before and I'll say it again. You don't have the first fucking clue what I'm about.

Now....

The final error in my posts, that I will correct here, was in reference to Pagan/Wiccan celebrations/holidays, when I stated:
[quote=ExistentialDisorder]There are 13 all together. The summer and winter solstices are both pagan celebrations. As are the spring and autumn equinox. And true Wiccans follow and celebrate these traditions.[quote]
This was a complete mistake. I was thinking phases of the moon for some reason, and instead stated 13 holidays. So the correction is that there are 13 moon phases, commonly referred to as Esbats, (which are still celebrations of a sort), and 8 Sabbats, or holidays.
*******
Hopefully this proves, at least to some, that I do not intentionally try to make myself seem more knowledgeable or superior in any way, to those that disagree with my opinions or anything else I have to say, and that when I find I've made a mistake, I'm the first that's willing to admit it and correct it.
Well now, I think I've more than proven my point here...

In the future, Thomas, do yourself a favor and don't try reading somebody you hardly know. At least not me.

As somebody else posted earlier, in reference to me no doubt, (tho mayhaps a bit premature);

I do believe, TStone, you got served.

~E.D.

[Rosie]

Pentacle is just a Pentagram with a circle around it.

They don't make as good Ninja weapons.

[Glorious Rays of Sunshine]

It's understandable.

People will judge you by your looks, and when your looks stray quite far from was has been established as 'normal,' then you're bound to get some flak for it. I, by no means, condone any sort of discrimination, and believe firmly in individuality, but it will happen when you wear black/makeup/metal/whatever-floats-your-boat.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Rosie

Pentacle is just a Pentagram with a circle around it.

They don't make as good Ninja weapons.

Pentacle and pentagram mean the same thing, they're perfectly synonymous.

[Disfunction]

I swear to god that reading this at 3:00 am holds no benefit when your eyes are struggling to stay open until morning... 5 hours of sleep, here I come.