WitchCraft

[Apathy's_Child]

That Creator it keeps talking about isn't a deity, it's a hidden message. I SEE YOU, MIR.

[vindicatedxjin]

Baaahahhahaha!

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

"saying" that something is or isn't there is easy. "proving" is what is difficult. Neither can PROVE either in which case, EVERYONE goes with they're gut. Both are equal. So why argue.

Oh, its impossible to totally prove the non-existence of a thing. However, since burden of proof lies with the claimant.. all one needs to do is point out the fact that it's not there.

However... therein lies the difficulty for the other side... as it is quite clear, that there's nothing there.

I believe in having an open mind... just not so open my brains fall out.

[Angelic Dissonance]

Outside of religeon, and regardless as to whether your God or mine exists:

There are things about the human body, mind, and thought itself that science cannot explain. That doesn't mean that it never will be able to. Science seems to support the idea of an aura of sorts... or at least an electromagnetic field, and if everything from pain to our heartbeats can be controlled by the human mind, why not that as well? For all we know, thought may be connected to the universe at a fundamental level.

It was said once that if you could understand a single grain of sand, you would know the workings of the universe--This may not entirely be true, as you may not be able to know one without knowing the others' actions upon it, but it cannot be said that we wouldn't know more about the hidden aspects of the world we live in if we could understand how they are reflected in our own minds.

Thus, I don't think it can be said that Magick is something that some kook just made up out of the clear blue sky--moreso that it is a natural tendency of man to try to understand things which are found within and without him/her, AND DO EXIST, but which are not able to be observed in a traditional sense. Science just doesn't cover everything--but you can't pretend that what cannot be explained does not exist.

It has to be made into a concept before it can enter our minds, one that can be dealt with if not fully understood.
It models itself after patterns that we are familiar with. It then attracts those patterns to itself in as coincidental a way as possible--the ones that fit sticking like popcorn to a popcorn-ball. The person whose mind this is occurring in draws parallels between those patterns to other patterns they have observed, and these being pretty much coincidental, again, are not always rational outside of the environment of that person. If enough of the patterns are similar to the common experiences of others, then it may go on as a phenomenon, becoming a new school of thought and gaining more of a rational, easily understood basis as others contribute to it. In doing this, though, it may be farther away from the original truth, which was never really known or understood in the first place, changing instead to one that makes sense, but is defunct.

Anyways, boiled down, "magick" isn't real, it's the attempt to explain reality outside of what science is capable of. No duh--I know.

What I'm saying is, there's more out there than meets the eye, more than can even be comprehended by a human being, and we can only guess at how we interact with whatever exists beyond the veil of our senses and rationality. God(or Godess) really has less to do with it then most people think--it's not WHO made the universe, but how it works when we can't prove why it works.

Ok, all done.

Ia.




PS: No amount of introspective pondering on the nature of the universe will get you a job, meaning me.

[ape descendant]

There's nothing wrong with wanting to understand and be able to explain the universe.

However, I think that clinging to nebulous, untestable dogma is a weak approach that hadn't really gotten mankind terribly far in the past (leeches, human sacrifice, blood letting, the idea of heresy).

Its ok to not know. The scientific body of knowledge that we have is certainly incomplete. But the scientific method is the most reliable method we have for testing information, so that we don't have to go off half-cocked.

And if there's ever scientific evidence of the existence of a god or gods, pixies, djinnns, udines, nephillim, magic or spirits of the dead. I will wholeheartedly believe in them, and it will be so AWESOME!!!

[Lady Sorrow]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

I may not feel like pursuing the same line of conversation. But if you must go, you must.

However, I am curious to see, why atheists should be pitied. An impending apocalypse falls far short of any good reason, unless you equally pity, pagans, buddhists, shintoists, hindus, jews and muslims.

I still fail to comprehend, how only believing in ideas that are demonstrably true, is a sad thing. I believe in things. I just make damned sure they're true.

good morning Ma'am. i cry for them, and yes, those of other religions to, because i dont know whats going to happen to all the people during the end of time. it scares me. i veiw them as people who are devoted to what they think is the one holy truth and id hate to see them eternally punished for their passionate beliefs. do you understand my reasoning Ma'am?

[Lady Sorrow]

Originally Posted by Apathy's_Child

That Creator it keeps talking about isn't a deity, it's a hidden message. I SEE YOU, MIR.

im not an 'it' i am a LADY thank you very much (hence the name) and Creator is not a hidden message, its another name for my deity, God.

[Lady Sorrow]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

I feel sorry for both Atheists and Christians... Both try so hard to prove each other wrong when in essence, neither know exactly what's goin on. It's as simple as that. My human being, feels like that there is a greater force at hand in this reality. But who knows what kind of reality this is? Maybe the Scientologist's are right? Maybe the Annunaki theory is true?


Why do we keep fighting, on account of human religion?

thats also why i like to study other religions lol to see if i can find a 'greater truth' then the reasoning i have now.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Lady Sorrow

good morning Ma'am. i cry for them, and yes, those of other religions to, because i dont know whats going to happen to all the people during the end of time. it scares me. i veiw them as people who are devoted to what they think is the one holy truth and id hate to see them eternally punished for their passionate beliefs. do you understand my reasoning Ma'am?

I normally like to let people believe what they want to believe, and usually only speak up when someone starts testifying to me about their religion. However, this statement was so blithely condescending that I had to respond.

I don't need to cry for you, because I am certain that you will faithfully hold your beliefs until the day you die, at which point you will painlessly vanish into non-existence ... unhurt by the knowledge of your misjudgment because you will no longer be ... and therefore will no longer be aware of anything.

That statement is exactly equivalent in sensitivity, tolerance and respect as yours was.

[Lady Sorrow]

if you were aiming for an insult, ben, you missed.

[Ben Lahnger]

No, I was making a point ... which you missed.

[Lady Sorrow]

no i got your point. i just wasnt quite sure if that was an insult or not. i understand i sounded a bit insensitive.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Lady Sorrow

thats also why i like to study other religions lol to see if i can find a 'greater truth' then the reasoning i have now.

No religion has empirical evidence that it is the "greater truth", just as there is no evidence that there is god or the end of days is coming and everyone who doesn't believe in an all loving god are going to burn in hell for questioning that he loves them with all his heart. No truths in religious books to be found, you`re just looking for a reason to be condescending.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Lady Sorrow

good morning Ma'am. i cry for them, and yes, those of other religions to, because i dont know whats going to happen to all the people during the end of time. it scares me. i veiw them as people who are devoted to what they think is the one holy truth and id hate to see them eternally punished for their passionate beliefs. do you understand my reasoning Ma'am?

You realize, the bible is just made up stories right? There was no Adam, no Eve, no 6 day creation... I know this for sure, because the stories contradict the known laws of nature.

There's no God, he can't exist because he's a twisted mess of impossibility and contradiction.. like a square circle.

Since this book is, at its very core, based on fairytale and fallacy it follows to reason that there is no heaven, no hell, no mystical rapture or apocalypse. There may be odd little snippets of history in the bible.. however most of it is made up.

One who believes in a literal interpretation of the bible, believes a lie.

[Razeal18]

Well even though this is quite obviously the most unpopular belife amongst the decidedly secular site, i practice occational craft. I like to follow my life based on a collection of ideas set to poetic stories. an ye harm none do as ye wilt. one rule dont hurt anyone. The christian god does not exist, nor does the christian devil. reality is irrelivant as to what i am doing will eliccet any other worldly events. It means something to me. i perform a ritual with different sybolism in order to focus myself on an intended goal. i know waiting for a waxing moon whispering words into the night and doing a ritual will not make me stronger. But it will help me focus on weight training and better diet because i chose to do my ritual. You should not believe in god because he exists, he only exists if you believe. details of dogma, what to or not to eat, when to pray to when to take a shit, it all only means something if you choose for it to.

[KontanKarite]

Allow me to be clear. My malice isn't unfounded, but it's directed not at the religion or belief itself, but at its use as a political motivation. Someone believing in Jesus bothers me not at all. Go ahead. However, as an entity, as something that forms and moves our living lives and our society and our politics into a direction that TREATS OTHER HUMAN BEINGS AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, you deserve nothing LESS than absolute mockery and ridicule.

The only thing that I get from ANY religious belief is that they are exclusive. Certain codes of sick conduct must be met in order to be worthy of any amount of some imagined "salvation" or retribution. In short, if your religious beliefs compel you to deny rights to HARMLESS human beings in your decision making process, you are an enemy. So yes, in short, if your beliefs causes undue stress to others who are reasonably no threat to you what so ever... well. I can't be at peace with you.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Razeal18

Well even though this is quite obviously the most unpopular belife amongst the decidedly secular site, i practice occational craft. I like to follow my life based on a collection of ideas set to poetic stories. an ye harm none do as ye wilt. one rule dont hurt anyone. The christian god does not exist, nor does the christian devil. reality is irrelivant as to what i am doing will eliccet any other worldly events. It means something to me. i perform a ritual with different sybolism in order to focus myself on an intended goal. i know waiting for a waxing moon whispering words into the night and doing a ritual will not make me stronger. But it will help me focus on weight training and better diet because i chose to do my ritual. You should not believe in god because he exists, he only exists if you believe. details of dogma, what to or not to eat, when to pray to when to take a shit, it all only means something if you choose for it to.

Then why ensnare your mind if you can see it as a choice to entertain something that means nothing to anyone else? Why do YOU need a god or a ritual to find the will to do what is good for you, when I, being an atheist, can make a choice to yield the same results that your rituals do? Who's wasting their time? Surely, I would believe that we are equals. But if I'm better than you, then so be it. Some people are indeed stronger and smarter than others.

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by Razeal18

Well even though this is quite obviously the most unpopular belife amongst the decidedly secular site, i practice occational craft. I like to follow my life based on a collection of ideas set to poetic stories. an ye harm none do as ye wilt. one rule dont hurt anyone.

Most atheists believe the same thing. They just don't need airy-fairy olde worlde poetic bullshit to make plain sense appealing.

[Odineye]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Allow me to be clear. My malice isn't unfounded, but it's directed not at the religion or belief itself, but at its use as a political motivation. Someone believing in Jesus bothers me not at all. Go ahead. However, as an entity, as something that forms and moves our living lives and our society and our politics into a direction that TREATS OTHER HUMAN BEINGS AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, you deserve nothing LESS than absolute mockery and ridicule.

The only thing that I get from ANY religious belief is that they are exclusive. Certain codes of sick conduct must be met in order to be worthy of any amount of some imagined "salvation" or retribution. In short, if your religious beliefs compel you to deny rights to HARMLESS human beings in your decision making process, you are an enemy. So yes, in short, if your beliefs causes undue stress to others who are reasonably no threat to you what so ever... well. I can't be at peace with you.

Deserve? No one ever deserves anthing. It is a word of justifaction. Every thing on this planet has to fight tooth and nail for anything they gather. Even then they may not keep it. If only for death taking it from them. This apllies for the grass to the man. The only differance is tha man(kind) needs a reason. Without reason man does nothing. Man wants nothing. Man, as many primapes are, is fairly appethetic. Man had to bring itself forward. It did this by reason and excuse.

Take religion for example. Judeo-Christian religion decleares several sins against eating various things in the B.C.s. Do you think that eating those things would piss thier god off? It's doubtful. It was mostlikly a health consern. Think of it, 'beasts with cloven hoof' still cause deseases. Mad cow anyone. Thou shall not lay with a man like he would a woman. This prevents many deseases. Sodomy is a sin for health conserns. For the record, sodomy is any non-conventional sexual interation. There is only one hole that thing fits in.

These 'healthwise' sins are presant in many old religions. Now the 'social' sins. These don't change much. Be nice. Be kind. Be generious. Let's all get along so we don't all die cold and alone in the wild. The message of most religion is to live and live well and if you are a dick no one will like you and you will die cold and alone. Obvious apeal sence people strive for comfort abouve most all else.

Jesus is the Santa Clause of his religion. Most all religions have one. Mohamad, Buhdah just to name a couple more. These, for the religious perpose, are story book characters. I like Drizt myselfe . They are something to aspire to. For the most part religion is a lot like a book club and the guy that reads it the most tells everyone else his views.

Belief and faith motivate people to do obserd and improbable things. Even acomplish these things. This gives any human nearly unpressandented control and influance over the world. This gives every one power. Even by doing nothing. Gahndi proved that. There is no such thing as a helpless, hopeless or harmless individual. We all must share a world. Especially today. One person can change all that... In seconds... Before you even realized they did.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Odineye

Jesus is the Santa Clause of his religion. Most all religions have one. Mohamad, Buhdah just to name a couple more. These, for the religious perpose, are story book characters.

Especially that Buhdah, I get believing a carpenter said a few lovely things, but who can justify believing in Buhdah, the twenty foot cyborg that breathes fire?!

I like Drizt myselfe

Salvatore fan? Well, that explains the bad literacy.

[allyssa]

I practice withcraft, if tarot reading, celebration of the cycle of the earth moving around the sun and practicing ancient cooking recipes, is witchcraft.
but I do not believe in god at all, philosophically I am with the existentialists, particularly sartre...but I find immense happiness in the old ways before they were oppressed by dogma, something I stay away from. I worship plants animals and the tangible material world...and celebrate the darkness and light of the winter and summer. my favorite celebration is yule, because it is the darkest time of the year... I always throw lavish parties where we drink wassail and dance to qntal..until the sun rises...

[Lady Sorrow]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

You realize, the bible is just made up stories right? There was no Adam, no Eve, no 6 day creation... I know this for sure, because the stories contradict the known laws of nature.

There's no God, he can't exist because he's a twisted mess of impossibility and contradiction.. like a square circle.

Since this book is, at its very core, based on fairytale and fallacy it follows to reason that there is no heaven, no hell, no mystical rapture or apocalypse. There may be odd little snippets of history in the bible.. however most of it is made up.

One who believes in a literal interpretation of the bible, believes a lie.

i know religion is messed up. christians of Jesus' time persecuted pagens, and that was wrong, and i know the bibile was written by pagens while they where 'influance by God' and i admit that isnt too convincing. thats why i changed my belives from text book to what i truly belive is the truth. and i agree Ma'am. the bible is not ment to be literaly interpertated.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Lady Sorrow

i know religion is messed up. christians of Jesus' time persecuted pagens, and that was wrong, and i know the bibile was written by pagens while they where 'influance by God' and i admit that isnt too convincing. thats why i changed my belives from text book to what i truly belive is the truth. and i agree Ma'am. the bible is not ment to be literaly interpertated.

If you agree that the bible should not be taken literally, why believe in any of that stuff at all?

I mean, to be a christian at least, one must believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. The only source for that idea is the bible... and we've agreed that its not to be taken at face value.

So, why even bother with it? Why feel sorry for other people who think its just a book of stories, not to be taken literally?

[Angelic Dissonance]

You guys put too much stock in death. If it's going to happen, it will--and most especially at the end of time--we cannot do a damn thing to stop it. It doesn't make any sense that you would feel regret towards death for any other reason than "...it could have been prevented!" Why mourn an inescapable fate, when we could spend our time mourning together for the condition of society? We could be focused on making OURSELVES better, not others. And if we are going to heaven for making the world a better place, isn't that a bonus?

Now according to theology, what makes worshipping a pagan god a sin is that those pagan gods are existant figures--demons, actually. Angels who were cast out of heaven are said to have become the embodiment of deceit--and if you had lost everything, even your purpose of existence, wouldn't you? If you could influence the fate of mankind, whispering to them of evil things they would never have thought of on their own, temptations and avarice, wouldn't it be the ultimate revenge against the God who left you without purpose to punish your treason against him?

I have to say, if I was a demon, you're damned right that I would(PROBABLY) try to make myself out to be great. I would have my own cult if it was the last thing I did! All I'd have to do is tell them to worship me and knock over a statue to show my power, or wait untill it was raining and say "HEY!! I DID THAT!!!! Now worship me, you ingrates!!!!"

And as for Bhudda, he even admitted he was not a god, and requested that no one worship him, which people gratefully ignored. THAT is just ignorance.

All God ever asked was "Don't give my f**ked up child/creations gratification, they're being punished right now(by eternal damnation)," "Don't worship that rock, it didn't create itself", and "Make my world, which I created, a place full of kind, generous people who help each other instead of killing and stealing from each other gratuitously". Most of you will point out the Old Testament--in which God is an angry, vengefull God. "What about the conquering of various other Pagan nations, and the killing of their leaders and people?" Well if you remember, God wiped out ALL people except one family in the story of Noah and The Ark. God didn't create evil, sinful people, he created potentially good people who listened too much to the evil things around them. Greed, lust, pride--who can deny that these are all self-destructive behaviors?

And the Israelites were "God's chosen people", the ones who he decided to focus all of his energies on, who he felt would listen to him, because they all shared the same heritage. The twelve tribes were supposed to have descended from twelve children, who were brothers. Family was important, in those days.

Anyway, God, should he exist, can do whatever he wants to. Who the hell are we to project our human ideals upon him, to tell him who HE should be? He should be telling us! But if we won't listen(even if that was because he didn't exist[outside of our invention]), couldn't we at least listen to ourselves and change? We KNOW what's good and what isn't, we're just too god-damned ornery to do it. We'd RATHER be the self-serving bastards most of us are, and work toward the greater good of our insignificant little 60-80 so years of life(if we're lucky). If we were all working toward the greater good, it WOULD be the greater good of our lives! You can't imagine the power of people working together, solely for Good and not for Self!

And neither can anyone else, which is why we are where we are now. WHETHER GOD EXISTS OR NOT.

[ape descendant]

..you know.. if its been hot and you lick your face.. it tastes.. salty...