This one actually IS for the Christians.

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Alan

It's so easy for you to tell me which words you found long.
It's also so easy to apologize for saying that criticizing one's bullshit inconsistent beliefs is the same as fucking genocide


It's not that 'there's no point in arguing.'
It's that you're too proud to admit you were wrong.

Okay Alan - you are supreme ruler of the internet.

I am dumb and stupid and whoops there goes my attention span for anything else written in the post because no one likes to be told those things and they tune out or scan over what is said.

What I meant, is that differences of opinions/beliefs or whatever is what causes wars.

My belief is better than your belief, turns into hatred (Kontan already dislikes me) and next thing you know I'm going out to buy a rocket launcher (not me personally, I am using it as an example). - oh hang on Kontan is spitting in LaBelle's eye because he doesn't agree with her opinion - not quite a rocket launcher but it's not exactly a friendly gesture.... and what caused that spitting - a disageement in beliefs... and then it leads to retaliation from both sides.

There are those educated folks who appreciate a good difference of opinion and then there are those meatheads who go out and buy the guns and bullets and shoot people because they don't understand the difference between robust debates and full on fights.

[OnyxBat]

Thank you versus.

Ok let me just explain my self again, I guess we all know that christians use to kill people that question them or were homosexuals. You cant make babies with the same parts so that would have decreased the population in people. So if we did not have a Strict religons including christianity (and I am talking about back then around the roman era when christanity started) the possiblities of me or you being gay or lesbians would have been high. So to finish, christanity have stopped many thing that would have been a positive for us.
Did I get anything wrong?

[OnyxBat]

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

Okay Alan - you are supreme ruler of the internet.

I am dumb and stupid and whoops there goes my attention span for anything else written in the post because no one likes to be told those things and they tune out or scan over what is said.

What I meant, is that differences of opinions/beliefs or whatever is what causes wars.

My belief is better than your belief, turns into hatred (Kontan already dislikes me) and next thing you know I'm going out to buy a rocket launcher (not me personally, I am using it as an example). - oh hang on Kontan is spitting in LaBelle's eye because he doesn't agree with her opinion - not quite a rocket launcher but it's not exactly a friendly gesture.... and what caused that spitting - a disageement in beliefs... and then it leads to retaliation from both sides.

There are those educated folks who appreciate a good difference of opinion and then there are those meatheads who go out and buy the guns and bullets and shoot people because they don't understand the difference between robust debates and full on fights.

I agree with the whole war stuff but some people do fight for the faith of it and to convince them selves that there is some kind of powerful being that created us. So we all dont know crap about that 'god' because you cant go to your aunt sally and asker were the hell she is when clearly she is in a grave.

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

Thank you versus.

Ok let me just explain my self again, I guess we all know that christians use to kill people that question them or were homosexuals. You cant make babies with the same parts so that would have decreased the population in people. So if we did not have a Strict religons including christianity (and I am talking about back then around the roman era when christanity started) the possiblities of me or you being gay or lesbians would have been high. So to finish, christanity have stopped many thing that would have been a positive for us.
Did I get anything wrong?

This entire post is wrong. The entire idea you've proposed here is fucking ridiculous.

You seriously think christianity is the only religious belief system to persecute others for any reason including homosexuality? SERIOUSLY?

Not having strict religions at any point in history ,would have in NO WAY increased the likelyhood or spread of homosexuality. It's not a fucking disease that spreads if you don't vaccinate against it .

[Versus]

Onyxbat, just stop. You're approaching a troll's level of fucking madness.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Saya

That assumes the sole purpose of religion is to make immoral people moral.

Talking of assumptions, haven't you been assuming that religious people would stop their charitable work if they weren't part of a religion? I mean Despanan was talking about a gradual decline in religion over a long time period. Surely by the time that happened it would be more likely that secular charities would have filled the void with the entire world population now available to draw volunteers from.

[OnyxBat]

I give up.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

Sufism is a type of Islam and Buddhism is indeed one of the world's major religions, and I don't know if you know this, but there's a lot of people in Asia and traditionally they didn't have the big three. Also, you did attack my Buddhism earlier, and we are saying "religion" generally, and since Buddhism is apparently making me weak, it stands to reason that I should be able to defend it, no?

Are you saying they are inconsequential or that you simply don't know enough about them to argue about it?

Where is Kontan attacking Buddhism? This thread is titled "for the Christians" and it's been understood from the beginning that we're talking about Abrahamic religions with a special emphasis on Christianity. That is what we mean when we say "religion" in this context.

Kontan and I don't care about Buddhism, because Buddhism isn't likely to start oppressing us anytime soon. Christianity is currently trying to assert itself over our lives.

This has been explained Saya, more than once, please please PLEASE stay on topic and stop with the straw-men, and the red-herrings.

If a bunch of Zen monks get together and start setting themselves on fire to protest the dairy industry or something, you'll hear from me about it. If you want to talk about Buddhism, start a new thread and you and me will go back and forth about it. Until then stay on topic.

I am dumb and stupid and whoops there goes my attention span for anything else written in the post because no one likes to be told those things and they tune out or scan over what is said.

Why in the blue fuck would you attempt to involve yourself in a discussion that you admit that you're not on the same intellectual level as the rest of us, and that you don't read relevant posts?

It's like you're trying to use your own stupidity as a tactic. Stop it.

What I meant, is that differences of opinions/beliefs or whatever is what causes wars.

My belief is better than your belief, turns into hatred (Kontan already dislikes me) and next thing you know I'm going out to buy a rocket launcher (not me personally, I am using it as an example). - oh hang on Kontan is spitting in LaBelle's eye because he doesn't agree with her opinion - not quite a rocket launcher but it's not exactly a friendly gesture.... and what caused that spitting - a disageement in beliefs... and then it leads to retaliation from both sides.

Slippery slope fallacy, followed by a truly MASSIVE over simplification. Differences of opinion on their own do not cause wars. Nor does Kontan getting heated in a few posts because he has to endure constant character assassination from you guys, make him the same as a jihadist.

This is offensively stupid.

There are those educated folks who appreciate a good difference of opinion and then there are those meatheads who go out and buy the guns and bullets and shoot people because they don't understand the difference between robust debates and full on fights.

This is a false dichotomy and a straw-man. No one here is trying to start a physical fight, nor has anyone threatened anyone physically.

What has happened is that Kontan and I have questioned christianity and other Abrahamic religions, and made a reasonable case against them, and you people have tried to paint us as nazis, fascists, and terrorists.

You people should be ashamed of yourselves. Your behavior in this thread has convinced me that now, more than ever, atheists need to become more outspoken. Even here, on a website dedicated to Gothic subculture of all things, there is a massive misunderstanding, and underlying distrust and hatred for those who have the simple audacity to suggest that we as a society do away with superstition.

Honestly, Kontan became more than a little inflammatory in this thread, but guess what? It was in response to your CONSTANT red-herrings, straw-men, and attacks on his character. So, if you people want to continue this discussion, please do so in a mature manner, and actually address the points of our arguments. If you're only interested in trying to derail the thread by insisting that atheists want to kill you and forcibly compel you to give up whatever silly beliefs you happen to hold, kindly fuck off, and leave this thread to the grown-ups.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Saya

Sufism is a type of Islam and Buddhism is indeed one of the world's major religions, and I don't know if you know this, but there's a lot of people in Asia and traditionally they didn't have the big three. Also, you did attack my Buddhism earlier, and we are saying "religion" generally, and since Buddhism is apparently making me weak, it stands to reason that I should be able to defend it, no?

Are you saying they are inconsequential or that you simply don't know enough about them to argue about it?

Saya, I don't CARE about your religion. IT IS NOT IMPORTANT or even socially relevant in the bigger picture here. Buhddism isn't about to persecute me any time soon and not only that, no one in their right minds would use these pointless faiths to assert their bigotry to get a free pass to be authoritarian over people. If they started to, trust me, I'd rail against them just as fierce. Saya... YOUR FAITH IS ABSOLUTELY HARMLESS and INSIGNIFICANT. Emphasis on both harmless and insignificant. You should really only be mildly offended by this in as much that I simply find those that cleave to these faiths to hold a very mild character flaw.

[Alan]

Wars are fought for economic and biopolitical issues, Fruitbat, not because your descendants will hold a grudge against Kontan that wil grow and grow and grow until they try to exterminate all of Kontan's descendants.
Seriously, Fruitbat; you're being so condescending in declaring me ruler of the internet and almighty wise man where you're only an idiot, but can you blame me for that?

[vindicatedxjin]

Hail, almighty wise man!

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Alan

Wars are fought for economic and biopolitical issues, Fruitbat, not because your descendants will hold a grudge against Kontan that wil grow and grow and grow until they try to exterminate all of Kontan's descendants.

A nation or organization does not go to war with another that they generally like, under any circumstances.

Despanan was right when he said:

Differences of opinion on their own do not cause wars.

When Fruitbat says "difference of opinion/belief," she means any unresolved disagreement, in general, that inspires negative emotions. That "grudge" might eventually stem from economic or biopolitical issues, but it is still enmity enough to kill for.

It doesn't matter, though. While I agree with her out of context, it is absolutely not in parallel with Kontan's fervency. I think she was trying compare his current demeanor more then compare his character or actions to Haj, but it definitely looked that way.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Versus

A nation or organization does not go to war with another that they generally like, under any circumstances.

That's pretty much the Golden Arches peace theory, but the Falklands war and South Ossetia prove that not even this is true.

[Versus]

That's just a theory.












I stand corrected. I must have not thought too deeply about it. Though, my initial thought is those examples are a rare occurrence.

Actually, what's really interesting is I implied emotion needed to be involved in violence. I, of everyone here, should have known better.

[Vaudevillain]

... Maybe god has split personalities?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Talking of assumptions, haven't you been assuming that religious people would stop their charitable work if they weren't part of a religion? I mean Despanan was talking about a gradual decline in religion over a long time period. Surely by the time that happened it would be more likely that secular charities would have filled the void with the entire world population now available to draw volunteers from.

I'm not saying they still wouldn't if they just lost their faith entirely, I'm just saying that religious people tend to be more charitable, this is true, because the religious community is geared towards that. You're throwing the baby out with the bath water if you think that just because a charity is religious its inferior to a secular group, religious charities are depended on very much in other places, give credit where credit is due.

Originally Posted by Despanan

Where is Kontan attacking Buddhism? This thread is titled "for the Christians" and it's been understood from the beginning that we're talking about Abrahamic religions with a special emphasis on Christianity. That is what we mean when we say "religion" in this context.

He brought it up earlier, asking me if I was broken because I am Buddhist, and accused me of wanting to be Buddhist more than wanting to be right and honest. Its a few pages back, my internet was down so I couldn't follow up on it timely, its his own fault for bringing it up and not making it clear that by "religion is stupid" he means "Christianity is stupid." Abrahamic religions are not the be all and end all of Christianity. Furthermore, we are very off topic of the original post, so when you say "religion", and attacking my own religion, its very confusing. No one is still talking about the OP with contradictions in the Bible, so be specific.

More likely, he's just back pedaling because thats somewhere he can't go.

And also, sure its not oppressive to you, but I'm not going to pretend that Buddhism has a perfect history or isn't still currently used to oppress others, that makes me angry even if its not in my own country. It has little impact in the States, but the US isn't the be all and end all of countries. But we've had this argument before.

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Why in the blue fuck would you attempt to involve yourself in a discussion that you admit that you're not on the same intellectual level as the rest of us, and that you don't read relevant posts?

**sigh** I said in a previous post that I wasn't going to continue, then you guys got all "Oh you won't hear back from fruitbat" and then Alan posted a question and I answered it and now I'm getting all sorts of mud slung on me for answering it.

Can you at least see my frustration? I never started or wanted a debate on this thread. My original post was addressed to Labelle and as typical you all came riding in on your ponies with your guns blazing.

Originally Posted by Despanan

Honestly, Kontan became more than a little inflammatory in this thread, but guess what? It was in response to your CONSTANT red-herrings, straw-men, and attacks on his character. So, if you people want to continue this discussion, please do so in a mature manner, and actually address the points of our arguments. If you're only interested in trying to derail the thread by insisting that atheists want to kill you and forcibly compel you to give up whatever silly beliefs you happen to hold, kindly fuck off, and leave this thread to the grown-ups.

And I never said anything inflammatory to Kontan - he said he didn't like me and I said I didn't like him.

And as to pissing people off, you treating everyone like they are of an inferior intellect to you, just adds to the pissed-off-ness of the people.

Oh and as usual you have mis-interpreted my words and made a complete cock up of what i wrote AND assumed i am religious.

I do not believe that atheists are trying to kill me or forcibly compel me to give up my non -existant religion


I am not religious. I do not follow a religion. I do not believe that someone who is an atheist or is religious is trying to kill me or whatever.


I am not religious. I do not follow a religion. I do not believe that someone who is an atheist or is religious is trying to kill me or whatever.


I am not religious. I do not follow a religion. I do not believe that someone who is an atheist or is religious is trying to kill me or whatever.


I am not religious. I do not follow a religion. I do not believe that someone who is an atheist or is religious is trying to kill me or whatever.


Does it get through to you? no.. I didn't think it would...

Let's agree to disagree, let's agree to think each other is fucking insane and completely out of place and totally off the mark with our comments.

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Alan

Wars are fought for economic and biopolitical issues, Fruitbat, not because your descendants will hold a grudge against Kontan that wil grow and grow and grow until they try to exterminate all of Kontan's descendants.
Seriously, Fruitbat; you're being so condescending in declaring me ruler of the internet and almighty wise man where you're only an idiot, but can you blame me for that?

And you guys aren't being condescending towards me? Calling me an idiot because I have differing views? Or because someone has put their perceived ideas of what I have written onto what I wrote?

What about catholics and protestants? Gehads (spelling?). Salman Rushdie and that book he published a decade or so ago - he had death threats against him because he spoke out against Muslim religion.

People in New York said they didn't want a Mosque so close to ground zero, and the Muslim community backed down (after some wacko threatened to burn the koran)

Rowanda
Kosovo

Have to dash.

[Alan]

I don't think you know what condescending means.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Yes. Get that axe murderer off the damn street before he kills someone else, don't let him just sit there slurping noodles you dick.

HAHAHA. They didn't let him back on the street, but they did let him slurp noodles in the meantime, on the theory that no one deserves to go hungry.

I suppose the vast majority of religious charities at least hope for conversions... I know the Salvation Army does, but I don't think they push for it.

Why is it inherently dishonest for me to be indifferent to other people's personal religious views? I hold the opinion that their private brain is their business. If I truly am indifferent, would it not be more dishonest to be a busy-body and get in people's face about it?
But then what am I doing in this thread? Do I like the drama? Am I offended at how you're expounding your views? How strongly you're expounding your views? Do I just think you're fighting a battle you'll never win (at least not completely)? In that case, again, why do I care?
Honesty...
Honestly, I think fanatical religion is ridiculous, but religion in general is just not an issue for me unless they try to pull me in. I have my head buried in my own piece of sand (Art), thank you very much. Stubornly using the Bible to explain the physical world around us, especially when we've come so far with science, is absurd. It's not necessary as a moral guide, since most people *can* reason out the basics of day-to-day good interactions, but for some things and for some people, it can be helpful. It can remind them of things like charity, loving thy neighbour, not judging. Any bigotry it propagates is reprehensible, but any good it propagates is better than nothing. Rather extreme case: if a person doesn't become an axe murderer because they're afraid God will say "Naughty naughty person," it's better than having an axe murderer. Like anything big, though, religion in general has good aspects and bad aspects.
Honestly, I think it's a mixed bag.

Do YOU know what condescending is? Or is your nose just so high in the air that you think we should feel honoured and blessed that you're paying attention to us at all, even if it is abuse and pats on the head?
Toots? Tell me that's not condescending, and I will tell you that the sky is sickly acid green. Both statements would be about as true.

[Alan]

Do you realize you're actually addressing Desp and me like if we were one person?

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Yes, I do realize that, and I'm too tired to sort you and Desp and Kontan out. The last part especially is directed at all three of you.

[Alan]

Yeah, because it's perfectly reasonable to lash out at me for something I didn't direct at you, because you're too tired.

[Alan]

'Despanan, do YOU know what condescending is?! Alan, FUCK YOU because Despanan called me toots."

You're hilarious.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

I'm not saying they still wouldn't if they just lost their faith entirely, I'm just saying that religious people tend to be more charitable, this is true, because the religious community is geared towards that. You're throwing the baby out with the bath water if you think that just because a charity is religious its inferior to a secular group, religious charities are depended on very much in other places, give credit where credit is due.

Who says I didn't give them credit? I ran a friggin MARATHON for a religious charity. There are tons of religious charities out there doing good work.

Does that make a giant, invisible man in the sky real? Does that invalidate centuries of oppression? Does that change the fact that their text and operating doctrine DEMANDS that everyone surrender their lives to this invisible sky-man and the old white guys who know what he wants?

I have demonstrated that religious charity is, at it's most basic level, a recruiting tool for that religion. Their doctrine demands it. Their belief structure requires that the good works always come second to converts.

None of this changes the fact that, overall, religion is socially harmful. We have shown that the good it does and inspires can easily exist without it. It goes without saying that the evil it does and inspires needs to be done away with. At the end of the day, It can't give us anything, but a good feeling. If you want that go shoot heroine.

Originally Posted by Saya

He brought it up earlier, asking me if I was broken because I am Buddhist, and accused me of wanting to be Buddhist more than wanting to be right and honest.

He was referring to this post I made on page 8 (which you never answered btw):

Originally Posted by Despanan

I basically said that the worthier philosophies found in the Bible (specifically the New Testament) were fine. It was the idea of Jesus being a deity, and his teachings being divine was the problem.

Saya responded with a straw-man that "People need philosophies" (I never argued against this, in fact I argued FOR it).

Then surprisingly enough, instead of a discussion on merits of said philosophy, she went off on a tangent about the "religious experience" the "inspiration" she draws from "the lives, wisdom, and teaching" and how a practitioner is going to have more "intimate knowledge" of their faith than an outsider can ever hope to, and they can never be persuaded otherwise regardless of the factual inconsistencies found in their texts (ie: their own philosophy) because "You can't break that kind of faith".

You guys following me? Saya seems more interested in defending the idea of a perfect, charismatic, inspirational teacher, than in defending logic and consistency of the teachings of said Charismatic.*

In a nutshell, she's not arguing that people need philosophies because they're good philosophies that will enrich their lives, she's saying that people NEED inspirational teachers. That we need our teachers, and texts to be super-human in order to appeal to us, emotionally and thus make us better people.

I'd actually like an answer to that to tell you the truth. Because it DOES seem that you're more interested in how religion feels than if it's actually right.

Originally Posted by Saya

we are very off topic of the original post, so when you say "religion", and attacking my own religion, its very confusing. No one is still talking about the OP with contradictions in the Bible, so be specific.

And also, sure its not oppressive to you, but I'm not going to pretend that Buddhism has a perfect history or isn't still currently used to oppress others, that makes me angry even if its not in my own country. It has little impact in the States, but the US isn't the be all and end all of countries. But we've had this argument before.

Look, it's not my fault if us criticizing Christianity makes you uncomfortable with your own faith.

If you think the same arguments I'm making apply to Buddhism as well, why don't you make them?