Communism?

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Vako

You know what you look like to me, with your leftist ideology and your weird facial-hair configuration? You look like a rube. A well scrubbed, hustling rube... with a little taste. Good social connections have given you a bit of culture and some 'length of bone', but you're not more than one generation from poor white trash, are you, Cpt. Sternn? And that accent you've tried so desperately to shed? Pure North American. What's your father, dear? Is he an obese coal miner? Does he stink of the lamp? You know how quickly the boys found you... all those tedious sticky fumblings in the back seats of cars... while you could only dream of getting out... getting anywhere... getting all the way to the Emerald Isle...

Whats this? A poor attempt at a Hopkins impersonation? Aside from the fact your way off on all counts AND the fact you missed the discussion of my past here before I'll fill ye in a bit sure.

First, my parents died in Belfast in the early half of the 1970's. Killed by brit forces during peaceful protests.

Second, I got my MS from Radford University in Psychology (I had a double major as an undergrad for my BS in Psyche and Soc with minors in History and Poli Sci).

But nice try mate.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by ArtificialOne

"Viva La Ché "

Really... So you are on the side of govt controlling every aspect of your life and having a mass murdering psycho as your leader?

Che has been so hyped.... But it doesn't change the fact of all the dead bodies in the ground and all his corruption... Typical Leftist dictor.

Figures you would love him stern.

Hah. Who has killed more people in their life - bush or Chavez? And do you really want to speak of corruption with the bush adminin power? Everyday a new scandal hits the papers, and more former staff or advisors go to prison.

Also note he is held in high regard by his own people - and was elected by popular vote - two things bush can't say.

[Vako]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Whats this? A poor attempt at a Hopkins impersonation? Aside from the fact your way off on all counts AND the fact you missed the discussion of my past here before I'll fill ye in a bit sure.

First, my parents died in Belfast in the early half of the 1970's. Killed by brit forces during peaceful protests.

Second, I got my MS from Radford University in Psychology (I had a double major as an undergrad for my BS in Psyche and Soc with minors in History and Poli Sci).

But nice try mate.

First on, I'm not your "mate". And I never will be. You are as Red as they come. You despise the country I love and you obviousely have no sense of humor... or do you?

You are a flaming Socialist/Communist. If you are, so be it. Everyone has a right to their own point of view. (except under your beliefs). If it weren't for the generosity of the siteowner, free-market Capitalism, and the libertarious principles of Freedom of Expression, you would not even be here agressively spreading your propaganda. Listen, you vile, malignant narcissist, I don't like you. So stay away from me and my posts, and better yet, put me on ignore. Please. Really. I will not allow myself to be dragged into arguments and "debates" with you. I refuse to allow you that much power over me. In my perception, you are a mortal enemy.

Your level of education does not concern me, or even impress me. I am also an informed individual.

I have also lost loved ones. We all have. Sympathy denied.

For the fact that you can't even take a joke without going menstrual and ultra-defensive, this is the last time I will go through the effort of responding to you.

Long Live Capitalism, Long Live Liberty!

And go fuck yourself up your own arse.

Don't fuck with me.

[dark_dragon_of_ice]

New Zealand is socialist and I assure you we are quite a "free" country.

[Vako]

Originally Posted by dark_dragon_of_ice

New Zealand is socialist and I assure you we are quite a "free" country.

I'm glad to hear it. Not sure how you manage that, but good to know that you have a good amount of civil liberties intact. I do know, also, that the Scandinavian countries are mostly Socialist and they have alot of liberty, a high standard of living, and are very stable. My contempt for that system is more towards as it exists in the Americas.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Vako

I'm glad to hear it. Not sure how you manage that, but good to know that you have a good amount of civil liberties intact. I do know, also, that the Scandinavian countries are mostly Socialist and they have alot of liberty, a high standard of living, and are very stable. My contempt for that system is more towards as it exists in the Americas.

The question then arises... 'why?'

Why does one form of government in one part of the world bother you? When the exact same type of government exists in other parts, and does very well, it's applauded. When that exact government structure attempts to overthrow corrupt capitalism, its then vilified by the western media.

The government(s) which are now rising in South America are almost parallel to many Scandinavian countries, most European Nations, and Australia.

Just because they are kicking out American oil companies the nations in South America get blasted.

Much like Cuba. Been there, planning on possibly skipping Spain again this year and going back. If you ever get a chance to go visit, do it. You can really see what life is like there - not the force-fed American media version they try and sell in the states.

[Lykaios]

First off, I'd like to note that there is quite the difference between Communism and Socialism. People seem to be missing that.

I am--as I stated earlier in this thread--a mutualist, which is a form of libertarian socialism.

In the words of Bakunin, "We are convinced that freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality."

It's very possible for socialism to ensure liberty. After all, it's only an economic system, not a governmental one.

[Drake Dun]

Can you clarify the mutualist view of property?

Drake

[Lykaios]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

Can you clarify the mutualist view of property?

Drake

In What is Property? Or, an Inquiry into the Principle of Right and of Government, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon made three very famous statements, being that 'property is theft', 'property is freedom', and 'property is impossible'. At first glance, these may seem to be contradictory, when they are indeed not.

Proudhon believed that there were two distinct forms of property: property to further tyranny, and property to ensure liberty.

To put it simply, most mutualists hold a belief (though not all) similar to this: the result of an individual's labor which is currently being used or occupied is a legitimate form of property; and, when it came to land, that it could also only be determined personal property by occupation or use. Unused land, therfore, cannot be declared private property.

If that made any sense.

[Drake Dun]

That makes perfect sense, and I think I would advocate a similar, albeit slightly different standard.

Thanks for that. I couldn't seem to get a straight answer out of Wikipedia.

Drake

[ArtificialOne]

Everyone <country> should do their own thing.

Communism/socialism is not the thing for america. I despise it for multiple reasons, including past attrocities and first hand knowledge from people who have came here as refugies from those countries. There seems to be a mental drain on the last 40yrs of all the horrible stuff that these forms of govts have evoked in the world. Sure, some of the ideas sound nice, but like many things that work in theory, do not work in real life. Please leave my free democratic and capitalist society alone. It has been doing pretty good for the last 200 or so years and don't think we need a sudden change of direction becuase a few proffessors in colleges and some young people suddenly want to be calling each other comrade and willfully spend my money on people who choose not to work and blame their ills on me because I do work and pay my bills. I like my freedom vey much and do not want to be paid by the govt for anything, or want my govt to pay people who choose not to partake in societies requirement that you work and take care of yourself.

If it works for you great! If you want socialism/communism... then go to one of the former soviet block countries or china... I'm sure many there will be on your side. Better yet you can go to North Korea.. isn't that a great communistic/socialistic perfect society?

[CptSternn]

Why is it when westerns discuss communism/socialism they immediately use N. Korea or Russia as an example?

Lets not forget countries as I mentioned in Scandinavia, Europe, and of course South America.

Before we get into schematics over which countries are 'communist' vs. which ones are 'socialist' remember that those terms are just that - mere terms, depending on the translation. Most communist nations are socialist nations. There are no true communism nations (per the definition) much like there are no true democratic nations.

Another fun fact - how many 'democracies' are their in the world? Out of the 156 nations that exist, how many are democracies? There are 5. Also note that britian calls itself a 'constitutional monarchy', even though they don't have a consitution of any sort. So as I said, lets look at nations based on their current government, NOT as what they have been labeled for whatever reason.

That being said, it's also funny to see people still bashing China. China is the reason America has anything. What is it now? 85% of all products Wal-Mart sells all come from China? China is the leading importer to the states. Most every product today sold in America is made in or has parts made in China. The Chinese quality of life is quickly joining the rest of the first world nations. Within the next 20 years it is expected that China, which also has nuclear weapons, has sent men to the moon, and has a space programme which is now surpassing America, will take the lead in the world.

As far as bashing 'communism' to, don't forget to bash Norway, Finland, Sweden, Germany, Ireland, France, and Australia to name a few nations that would fall under the same type of government in reality.

[dark_dragon_of_ice]

Dammit stop doing Communism/socialism like they are the same thing!!

[Vako]

Originally Posted by dark_dragon_of_ice

Dammit stop doing Communism/socialism like they are the same thing!!

I can only speak from my own point of view, and I know damn well the details and differences between Socialism and Communism. I am aware however, that they are related. That is why I refer to them as "Socialism/Communism".

I will continue to do so.

[Lykaios]

Originally Posted by Vako

I can only speak from my own point of view, and I know damn well the details and differences between Socialism and Communism. I am aware however, that they are related. That is why I refer to them as "Socialism/Communism".

I will continue to do so.

Uck.. I'm a socialist, but not a communist. I hate when those terms are associated that way. You may know the differences, but not everyone here does. By using the terms in that manner, you're going to cause further confusion among the already confused. Is that in any way helpful?

[Lykaios]

To clarify my views, might I also note that I am against statist-government and hierarchy of all kinds.

That should separate me from some of the others in this thread.

[Vako]

Originally Posted by Lykaios

Uck.. I'm a socialist, but not a communist. I hate when those terms are associated that way. You may know the differences, but not everyone here does. By using the terms in that manner, you're going to cause further confusion among the already confused. Is that in any way helpful?

It is not in my interest to help the cause of Socialism. Therefore, I do not need to bare the responsibility of informing people about it. Those individuals who are so inclined to research it for themselves will, or you can inform them.

Although tolerance is a finite commodity, I have some in my heart for you. Your behavior and approach in communication with me is polite and gestalt. Thank you for that. We are on opposite ends of the political spectrum. It takes a person of highly developed character to remain civil even though in the "real world" we would be ideological opposites.

I am a capitalist. I have no interest in being helpful towards the Socialist cause. It does not work in my interest.

I hope we can respect each other's differences. The alternative is conflict, and that is also not good for business. (unless one is a sociopathic, warmongering asshole).

[ArtificialOne]

First off.

I lived in Australia stern.. so don't go pulling "it's communist" crap with me.

Second. Where was china 100yrs ago? Not really around as far as the trade we are doing now.. And china would be nowhere without the US to buy it's goods. Oh and lets not forget that funny little population problem... what was that I read.... not enough young people to sustain the meeting labor challenges in the next 20yrs? Check out this article

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...ow/1203400.cms

And being a tech head I'm going to shit all over your term "schematic" you used.

Schematic=showing the basic form or layout of something

Semantic=inguistics the study of how meaning in language is created by the use and interrelationships of words, phrases, and sentences.

Sorry, but being a techer I can't let you slip buy with a missused word such as schematic instead of Semantic.

Socialism=

1. Political system of communal ownership <communism?>
a political theory or system in which the means of production and distribution are controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness rather than market principles

2. Movement based on socialism
any of several political movements or theories of the 19th and 20th centuries based on principles of socialism, typically advocating an end to private property and the exploitation of workers

3.Stage between Capitalism and communism
in marxist theory, the stage after the proletarian revolution when a society is changing from capitalism to communism, marked by pay distributed according to work done rather than need.

OK, I got all that from my little "research tab" on my ie toolbar.. not exactly sure where they get the info, But i agree with some of it. Mainly number two.

OK, so a loose sense of socialism works in a europeon country of less than the population of LA.. you do realize the US has more than 300 million people?

And you must also know when you scale things up sometimes they don't work in large scale?

And some of you "socialist" must also know that most americans despise socialism and communism.. why? Maybe all the horror stories heard from people who immigrated over during the cold war?

No form of govt is perfect. There are always critics and always people who despise govt no matter how good it is.

And yes there may be few democracies in the world.. Maybe for the same reason there are few Ferraris in the world... Sometimes good things are not plenty.

And I will always use NK, China, Russia, former soviet block countries and such as examples, lets not forget the mass number of people in all of these countries. When investigating strengths of systems and such you always use the weekest link, not the few exceptions

[Binkie]

Yeah, communism has worked well for most of the countries that really adhered to it. Let's see where is the Soviet Union now a days? Dissolved after the need for expansionism had it's limits and they couldn't really afford the arms race with the United States.

North Korea throws all of it's money into it's military technology at the extreme expense of it's citizens collectively. The system has quite obviously failed that state and is why they heavily rely on South Korea for aid and are experimenting with capitalist models in certain areas.

Cuba is the reason that the communist country plays such a large part of Florida politics. After the Soviet Union went bye-bye, a lot of Cubans fled to the US since the economy in Havana went under rather quickly. Of course that was preluded by many other mass exoduses. They've since gotten themselves back to neutral after finding other countries that will pour foreign aid into that island.

China can attribute it's growing economy to capitalist reforms in policy. Hence why you see a major gap between the rich and poor in that country now-a-days. It's no well kept secret that China's economic policies are pro-capitalism.

Vietnam has gone the same way as China and so far as to allow communist party members to adopt capitalist business ventures to make money.

Laos... same deal.

As far as European countries being socialist, or rather, being "welfare states;" that works for some. Those policies of high taxation and redistribution of income suits many. That system has long proven to be successful on small scales.

The way it has really boiled down to since these different economic and political systems have been installed at varying degrees; Communism is not compatible with democratic ideals. True communist states are one party states. Socialism, on the other hand, is compatible to a great extent. But like everything else, hardline policies and heavy handed governments will always give ideologies such as socialism a bad rap. Often times it is those governments that try to paint a happy face on communism by saying it's really socialism. Or, as was often the case, communist nations adopting some long title with the word "Democratic" in it to paint a happy face on a one-party state.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by ArtificialOne

First off.

I lived in Australia stern.. so don't go pulling "it's communist" crap with me.

As I stated, there are no true communist nations - as there are no true democracies. That being said, Australia is much closer to a socialsit/communist structure than a democracy/captialism style of government. That is something you must have gotten while living there.

Second. Where was china 100yrs ago? Not really around as far as the trade we are doing now.. And china would be nowhere without the US to buy it's goods. Oh and lets not forget that funny little population problem... what was that I read.... not enough young people to sustain the meeting labor challenges in the next 20yrs? Check out this article

Interesting article but a few things - first off, its speculative, for the next 20 years. Anything could change between today and tomorrow. Second, China existed centuries before America even became a nation. To ague they are going to blow away somehow is quite ignorant.

And being a tech head I'm going to shit all over your term "schematic" you used.

Sorry, but being a techer I can't let you slip buy with a missused word such as schematic instead of Semantic.

Thank you techer for correckting my grammer.

OK, I got all that from my little "research tab" on my ie toolbar.. not exactly sure where they get the info, But i agree with some of it. Mainly number two.


OK, so a loose sense of socialism works in a europeon country of less than the population of LA.. you do realize the US has more than 300 million people?

And you must also know when you scale things up sometimes they don't work in large scale?

I cut the textbook definitions, as we can look those up. As far as arguing how socialism might work here and not there, thats a fair statement, however there are a few things I would like to point out...

First off, kinda funny a pro-Iraq war guy would make a statement like that. Considering the bush regime is pushing for 'democracy' in the middle east and can't understand why some countries don't like the American style of government. Ironic actually. But I digress.

Right now, Americans are pushing for socialism. Don't believe me? What about halthcare? Everyone is pushing for more money for healthcare. They already have now passed legislation in Mass. for this very thing. And what about your utilities? I admit some larger areas allow you to pick your provider for electricity and water, but most do not. In those areas the government regulates the price. Wow, government regulated utilities, government subsidised healthcare, whats next? With the current age of information more Americans are seeing what other nations have, and want it. As I pointed out in the Americans thread, America is no longer #1 at anything. They have dropped back to #17 in the world, trail in education, healthcare, etc. Once people see that other nations are surpassing them, they will want to be 'caught up' with other industrial nations. The only way to do that is to have the government collectively raise the quality of life - which means instituting social policies which are socialistic and communistic in nature.

Don't believe me? Check this out. From the CS Monitor YESTERDAY...

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0416/p...ec.html?page=1

As US tax rates drop, government's reach grows
Study: 1 in 2 Americans now receives income from government programs

Maybe the era of big government isn't over, after all.

As Americans finish their annual tax-filing flurry to meet a Tuesday deadline, it is true that tax rates are lower than they were a few years ago. But according to a different yardstick, the federal government's reach is expanding.

Slightly over half of all Americans – 52.6 percent – now receive significant income from government programs, according to an analysis by Gary Shilling, an economist in Springfield, N.J. That's up from 49.4 percent in 2000 and far above the 28.3 percent of Americans in 1950. If the trend continues, the percentage could rise within ten years to pass 55 percent, where it stood in 1980 on the eve of President's Reagan's move to scale back the size of government.

That two-decade shrink-the-government trend now appears over, if for no other reason than demographics. The aging baby-boomer generation is poised to receive big payments from Social Security and government healthcare programs.

"New Deal programs persist," despite the Reagan revolution and its aftermath, says James Galbraith, an economist at the University of Texas in Austin. "They persist because they are largely successful and highly popular."

Mr. Shilling's analysis found that about 1 in 5 Americans hold a government job or a job reliant on federal spending. A similar number receive Social Security or a government pension. About 19 million others get food stamps, 2 million get subsidized housing, and 5 million get education grants. For all these categories, Mr. Shilling counted dependents as well as the direct recipients of government income.

*snip*

Thats right, your well on your way to socialism now. over 50% of Americans have a lifestyle currently funded by tax payers money.

And some of you "socialist" must also know that most americans despise socialism and communism.. why? Maybe all the horror stories heard from people who immigrated over during the cold war?

As I stated in the propaganda thread, most stuff you read then, and now, is hyped for political purposes. It was done then, and is done now. Fly to Canada, visit Cuba - tell me how bad off they are in that communist state.

No form of govt is perfect. There are always critics and always people who despise govt no matter how good it is.

Agreed.

And yes there may be few democracies in the world.. Maybe for the same reason there are few Ferraris in the world... Sometimes good things are not plenty.

That may have been a true statement 30 years ago, but with most 'democratic' nations now ranking lower in all aspects of life than other socialist/communist nations, one must look at the quality of life before making such a statement.

And I will always use NK, China, Russia, former soviet block countries and such as examples, lets not forget the mass number of people in all of these countries. When investigating strengths of systems and such you always use the weekest link, not the few exceptions

True, but most of those analogies are decades old. It's like saying Germany is a nazi country, and claiming socialism is bad because of the acts of the nazis in Germany. Realise the world is changing, and has changed, and that most of the stuff that was forcefed to us back in the 70's and 80's has now changed too much to try and compare events then to things happening now as far a governments are concerned.

Arguing that America in one decade is better/worse than a nation based on events in another decade does not make for sound conclusions.

[ArtificialOne]

NO, some americans are pushing for it. Mainly the people who want to excuse laziness and not work for a living.

Yout blatant anti americanism is disgusting. Do you think you are doing a service by posting poles and propaganda.. You might get a few disspossesed kids on your side, but not adults with enough brain power to see through your real intentions.

America is number one with me and I don't care what anyone else thinks.

And the more I read your posts and check for little details, the more I'm convinced you are not from ireland and merely an angst filled teenager or middle aged man who once visited ireland and are trying to adapt an alter persona top hide some shame you have. Wouldn't be the first time someones done that on the net.

If you are not in the US I'm glad. I don't want people like you pushing marxism or any such thing here. WE don't want it. So, a few people like move on. org and some west coast pollies and college students want to push socialism... Well, they'll grow up sooner or later and see the flaws of their ways.

And I don't think I actually said I was pro-Iraq war. I have stated I would like to see a good conclusion and do not believe in other peoples view of a total loss.

If you've read other posts of mine you will see I am quite steady in my beliefs and such.

If I had the money stern, I would send you to a psychiatrist.. Judging by your posts I'd say you needed one.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by ArtificialOne

NO, some americans are pushing for it. Mainly the people who want to excuse laziness and not work for a living.

There is in the root of your issue mate.

You have been taught that somehow social programmes equal 'laziness'.

Programmes such as welfare, grants, etc. help level the playing field between the haves and the have-nots. Even in American society today they exist.

Have you heard of Pell Grants? Do you think students who get them are lazy? Even if they got high marks in school?

What about unemployment? Men and women who worked for 20 years at a plant to be cuaght high and dry when the company 'downsizes' (which you see all over America), people who worked 50+ hour weeks for 20 years now left without a vocation because they were made redundant by machines - are they just lazy as well?

A 55 year old who works at a plant or job and is let go who has a family of 4 with children - now should just go out and overnight learn a new vocation else he, by your standards, is lazy?

Do you not feel the government has to take some responsibility to help its own citizens? Especially since they set the rules the corporations go by, and by allowing companies to do things like sack dozens of men merely because of their pay grade, or send their jobs to India for half of the labour cost?

The problem is that your allowing companies to trample on the lives of the citizens of the nation you claim to support. Your actually siding with the companies over your own countrymen.

Do you see the profits that any corporation makes in a year? No. So why is it so ingrained within your psyche that companies must be allowed to operated without restrictions, even at the cost of human lives, lives of your own people, and you seem to fall in line with this without hesitation?

(As I said before, thats not just direct at you personally. There are others here who also would fall into the same category and have expressed similar views.)

[ArtificialOne]

Due to your tasteless remarks in the VA tech thread, you are going on ignore Stern.