Goth murderer's sentence reduced.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Sir. Helpmann

It is dangerous to allow the state to decide who should live and who should die.

Where will it end?

It may not happen today, but tommorow it may be legal to kill you on the basis of your political affiliation.

I know, the death penalty faggots will call me an "extremist" but that's more or less the sum of allowing the state to kill off it's citizens.

The Death Penalty is a miserable example of state interfearance. I find it odd that America, a country that is so anti-socialist (no national health service) feels it has a right to kill people with the power of the modern state rather than save lives.

It's dangerous to allow the state to lock people up. It's dangerous to allow the state to control anything at all. And America isn't Anti-Socialist, it's Anti-Communist. A lot of Amerifags can't grasp the idea that communism and socialism are different. What they actually fear is communism. If Barack with the slogan "I'm really a Socialist!", he'd have lost due to terminology. His incorporation of positive socialist aspects into his proposed system, however, worked to his benefit. To put it simply, Americans seem to like Socialism, but hate the word.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

There was a similar incident not too long ago where a punker was ran over by a jock. The defense won through the argument that the punker's lifestyle was dangerous and he was destined to die sooner than later. The jock could be quoted at the scene of the crime as saying "Hope that little punk didn't dent my car" and he drove away. Legit hit n run.

Nobody said anything about the jock's love for full contact sports as dangerous or life threatening and he got off scott free, graduated highschool and went on to go work at the local Longs Drug Store like the typical loser he is. Amen.

Got a link?

[Eclipsing the Son]

Not quite. Marilyn Manson mentions it in this interview but I remember reading it in the papers too if you'll believe me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlGGoE2LlFQ

EDIT: Can't believe it was so long ago.

[Eclipsing the Son]

Sorry, its in part two at 1:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB6-t...eature=related

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Eclipsing the Son

There was a similar incident not too long ago where a punker was ran over by a jock. The defense won through the argument that the punker's lifestyle was dangerous and he was destined to die sooner than later. The jock could be quoted at the scene of the crime as saying "Hope that little punk didn't dent my car" and he drove away. Legit hit n run.

Nobody said anything about the jock's love for full contact sports as dangerous or life threatening and he got off scott free, graduated highschool and went on to go work at the local Longs Drug Store like the typical loser he is. Amen.

I saw that on City Confidential on AE, that was years ago. Made me really really mad, he didn't win the case but he only got ten years probation, served some time after getting caught drinking underage, and his girlfriend who was in the car testified that he was laughing the entire time and the guy actually BACKED UP on him. He got off easy because they said that the punk kids were gay satanists. This was down somewhere in Texas, I remember the nickname of the guy who died was "Sunshine". I'll post a link if I can find it.

EDIT: That was a lot easier to find than I thought.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Deneke

[Eclipsing the Son]

Good work!

[Necrophagist]

SMASH!

Oops, I hope Sir Helpmann didn't dent my tank!

[Eclipsing the Son]

Originally Posted by Necrophagist

SMASH!

Oops, I hope Sir Helpmann didn't dent my tank!

Click for image of said 'tank'.

[Opteron_Man]

I am speechless at this news!
I really hope that they get RAMMED in jail!
They most certainly will be some big guys's fuck toy in there.
Poor sophie. I hear that the guy she was with lost his memory from that night.

[jack_the_knife]

Originally Posted by Saya

I saw that on City Confidential on AE, that was years ago. Made me really really mad, he didn't win the case but he only got ten years probation, served some time after getting caught drinking underage, and his girlfriend who was in the car testified that he was laughing the entire time and the guy actually BACKED UP on him. He got off easy because they said that the punk kids were gay satanists. This was down somewhere in Texas, I remember the nickname of the guy who died was "Sunshine". I'll post a link if I can find it.

EDIT: That was a lot easier to find than I thought.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Deneke

Yes, I found out about this incident a few years ago. I was pretty annoyed at the time as well.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

It's dangerous to allow the state to lock people up. It's dangerous to allow the state to control anything at all. And America isn't Anti-Socialist, it's Anti-Communist. A lot of Amerifags can't grasp the idea that communism and socialism are different. What they actually fear is communism. If Barack with the slogan "I'm really a Socialist!", he'd have lost due to terminology. His incorporation of positive socialist aspects into his proposed system, however, worked to his benefit. To put it simply, Americans seem to like Socialism, but hate the word.

Actually AM, I disagree with you in one way. I think Americans like capitalism unless their proverbial ships are sinking...then they like socialism so that their ships can stay afloat. Were it not for the state of the economy I don't think that the socialist ideas would have been as easily accepted. Plus they were presented, as you said, in a positive light by a man that is very charismatic and knows what people want to hear.
Don't get me wrong- I like Obama. I think there's a lot he can do for this country. Provided the Democrats are going to back him up in the Senate and the House.
I do agree with the fact that Americans confuse socialism with communism and they are afraid of communism. I've always seen socialism as structure that is between communism and capitalism. Also, I've always liked the idea because a socialist structure is more likely going to take care of the people. It's a really great idea in theory. My Aunt and Uncle lived in Wales for about a year back in the 80s. She told me that when my cousin got sick she called the doctor and there was a 3 month waiting list because of the public healthcare system. Because they were over there for my Uncle's job, when the doctor's office found out they had different insurance, they got my cousin in- in 3 days. Some societies are incredibly unfunctional when it comes to socialism. (I think I've stated this else where) So in practice? It may not work so well. The only positive things I've heard about socialism is in Norway. There has to be a fundamental change with the health care system, including doctor's offices. Not many doctor's offices in my area currently accept government provided health care. Do you think that the government can tell private practices that they have to accept the government plans?

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

Actually AM, I disagree with you in one way. I think Americans like capitalism unless their proverbial ships are sinking...then they like socialism so that their ships can stay afloat. Were it not for the state of the economy I don't think that the socialist ideas would have been as easily accepted. Plus they were presented, as you said, in a positive light by a man that is very charismatic and knows what people want to hear.
Don't get me wrong- I like Obama. I think there's a lot he can do for this country. Provided the Democrats are going to back him up in the Senate and the House.

I didn't say Americans didn't like Capitalism. It's just that they don't have any problem with actual Socialism.

Also, I've always liked the idea because a socialist structure is more likely going to take care of the people. It's a really great idea in theory. My Aunt and Uncle lived in Wales for about a year back in the 80s. She told me that when my cousin got sick she called the doctor and there was a 3 month waiting list because of the public healthcare system. Because they were over there for my Uncle's job, when the doctor's office found out they had different insurance, they got my cousin in- in 3 days. Some societies are incredibly unfunctional when it comes to socialism. (I think I've stated this else where) So in practice? It may not work so well. The only positive things I've heard about socialism is in Norway. There has to be a fundamental change with the health care system, including doctor's offices. Not many doctor's offices in my area currently accept government provided health care. Do you think that the government can tell private practices that they have to accept the government plans?

It's not so much that it may not work so well as that it may not be much better than a Capitalist medical system. At worst, I expect the two would be equal.

[Saya]

There's waiting lists in Canada too, but it has a lot to do with the fact we don't have enough doctors (which we're trying to solve via immigration, most doctors I've been to were foreign). If you go to the emergency room or a walk in clinic you wait a for few hours, if you need something special done it can be a long wait but it goes by priority, all in all its annoying but I've got no real complaints. I can afford to fall down the stairs at least I was horrified when I saw Sicko, no wonder Americans are so paranoid, if you fall down the stairs it spells financial ruin!

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

The problem with that though is that the CMA is dragging their feet and trying to protect "home-grown" doctors. There aren't many foreign schools that are certified, and anyone else has to go through a long process of exams and internships.
http://www.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/19032004/n5.shtml

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Saya

There's waiting lists in Canada too, but it has a lot to do with the fact we don't have enough doctors

Which is a proof that socialism is not the problem with medicine.
If Canada has a waiting list because there aren't enough doctors, then let's translate that into Capitalist America. If both have a similar proportion of doctors (someone might want to try to find that out) and Canada is the one that has a waiting list it's because everyone can equally go, and the system is saturated.
America doesn't have waiting lists though it's the country with more sick people per capita, which means that although most people need medical attention, only so many of them can actually afford it, and the system doens't get saturated.

[Jonathan]

I stand by my earlier post. There are a couple things I disagree with, though. These kids were not animals or demons or monsters, they were people with no excuse not to be able to appreciate the terrible result of their actions. I also do not think that brutalizing them, or torturing them in any manner are appropriate responses to what they did, and simply not acceptable. I can understand the outrage, but really sinking to that level is not the way.

It is unfortunate, but they are the ones who made the decision to stomp one person to death and another to the brink of it.

The cruelty they demonstrated is intolerable. We simply do not need individuals like them drawing breath. Maybe they could be rehabilitated, maybe not. In my opinion, what they did voids any right they might have to getting a second chance. I don't get to make that decision, though, I only get to state my contempt for what they did.

And I would be saying the same thing regardless of the victim's age, gender, style, skin tone, taste in music, or any other meaningless variable.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

I didn't say Americans didn't like Capitalism. It's just that they don't have any problem with actual Socialism.



It's not so much that it may not work so well as that it may not be much better than a Capitalist medical system. At worst, I expect the two would be equal.

Good point.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

If both have a similar proportion of doctors (someone might want to try to find that out)

"Canada has fewer doctors per capita than the United States. In the U.S, there were 2.4 doctors per 1,000 people in 2005; in Canada, there were 2.2.[59]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...stems_compared) (http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,33..._1_1_1,00.html)
That's as of 2006. The problem is that many doctors leave Canada in favour of higher salaries in the States. Our healthcare system is also bloated, I believe. It needs to be reformed (but not to make it private), rather than just having money thrown at it. Someone on this board mentioned that Norway's system is pretty good.

[CptSternn]

The idea of killing someone to show them that killing is wrong is pretty contradictory on its own without the help of people trying to justify it.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci

"Canada has fewer doctors per capita than the United States. In the U.S, there were 2.4 doctors per 1,000 people in 2005; in Canada, there were 2.2.[59]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...stems_compared) (http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,33..._1_1_1,00.html)
That's as of 2006. The problem is that many doctors leave Canada in favour of higher salaries in the States. Our healthcare system is also bloated, I believe. It needs to be reformed (but not to make it private), rather than just having money thrown at it. Someone on this board mentioned that Norway's system is pretty good.

A lot of it is how the doctors are distributed too. They always leave Newfoundland and go to Ontario, for example, because Ontario has more doctors so its less stress on them, but it creates more stress on the doctors here o.O

[JCC]

If a couple of Goths got drunk and killed a jock, would you all be having the same reaction?

[Necrophagist]

Yes. Stop using Jillian's argument.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by JCC

If a couple of Goths got drunk and killed a jock, would you all be having the same reaction?

I think the reaction would be, "Well they weren't really goth, they were posuers."

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

The idea of killing someone to show them that killing is wrong is pretty contradictory on its own without the help of people trying to justify it.

Well said.

[Ms.Crowbar]

Originally Posted by JCC

Fuck, I must've overlooked the part where you took control of their minds and found out everything they felt. I thought you were working from media coverage, my bad.

They laughed both in court while the evidence was being shown and during questioning by the police. They sneered at Sylvia Lancaster during the sentencing. Now, I highly doubt that by laughing and sneering that they felt guilty for what they did.
The sick fuckers laughed. They must feel really guilty....