Satanist: Anton Szandor LaVey

[rockandrose]

I find this man to be an interesting one.

Anton Szandor LaVey

"Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development," has become the most vicious animal of all!" - Anton Szandor LaVey

Read about Anton Szandor LaVey via these links:

http://www.churchofsatan.org/aslv.html

http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Sex.html

[The Minister Saint-Fond]

But have you ever really met some Satanists? I've met a few that were very bright, but a lot of them are like the Star Trek geeks of the pagan world. Mostly they argue about who's a "real" satanist and who's not. They really get into their dogma and root around in magick as a more of a time waster than anything else.

Levay is interesting, but I find his philosophies fundementally flawed and built too much on a very limited (although somewhat relevant) understanding of perceptive reality. I also don't like the somewhat animalistic view on morality that he presents. Of course, this is all just my opinion, as I find things like compassion and sacrifice (which LaVey tends to reject on principle) to be the most important parts of the human spirit which separate us from the animals.

As a pagan myself, I suggest avoiding it as a long-term calling. But by all means, learn about it. And if you'd ever like to discuss alternative religions, I'd love the opportunity.

[rockandrose]

As an Aithiest, occassionally I question myself about the world and how it come to be, who was the creator of the world and if evil exist in a form of a demon etc. I'm always interested in other's beliefs on religion and the world. I'm always intrigued by Satanists (supposedly they are), their thoughts and views on certain things. I, myself have never met a Satanist face to face before. I would like to though.

[The Minister Saint-Fond]

As a pagan. myself, I try to stay away from organized religion in general. Usually, in the act of organizing, the true message is lost. Perhaps that's the plight of the satanists today.

Let's look at the Christian Church for an example (any one will do).

I think that some of the most beautiful words ever written were these:
Quote:

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like unto it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' On this hangs all the law and all the prophets."

Matthew 22: 37-40

So what does this mean? In my opinion, this shatters the Church and all the dogma that we've become so familiar with.

What this says to me is:

The most important thing the world is to have love for the divine. The second most important thing is like unto it...

is like unto it

The second commandment is the same as the first...

That you should love your neighbor as if he or she were yourself.

That you and your fellow man or woman are as one. And should be through your compassion.

Everything else is dependent on this. Everything else, All the laws and all the religious messages of the world are secondary to these things.

To me, this is earth-shattering. This says, basically... All the rules and laws that have been written, all that everyone tells you about righteousness, everything on which man has built religion, is nothing but wind and ghosts. All that matters is love of the divine and love of your fellow man (woman). Compassion is the root of all that is good, and the rest of the "rules" you hear everyday, don't eat shellfish, don't be gay, don't covet your neighbor's mule... is only so much scenery, so much ash. None of it matters. If you fill your heart with compassion, everything else will fall into place.

Jesus once said that "If the kingdom of the Father is in the sky, then the birds will precede you. If it is in the sea, then the fish will precede you." What does that mean? Well, if you take this in conjunction with the above words, you can see, I think:

All of us and everything are one thing. The only real goal, is understanding and union with the divine. The only way to do that is through compassion. Everything else is empty. Everything else either begins in this or doesn't matter.

I think this is spectacular. It's a perfect philosophy. Even Crowley's famous words, adapted by the fluffbunnies, the ones that were so important to us Pagans that we've come to call it "The Rede" (the thing that binds us together), "An it harm none, Do As Thou Wilt shall be the whole of the law," falls short because it misses the connection with the divine.

It's a very buddhist message. (Was Jesus a western buddha? Like Lau Tsu or Gautama or Krishma?) Which makes perfect sense. If you ask any Hindu what a Christian is, he or she will tell you that Christians worship an avatar of Krishna who was named Jesus. I think that speaks to the universal message of spirituality that could bind us all together.

The funny thing is, in my opinion, that fundementalist religious people (any faith) always tell us that other religions are generally tools of the devil/a priestly ruling class/society or some evil force that is trying to lead us astray. And to think that what may be the most pure and fundementally beautiful message in the world has been buried... lost in a mire of rules and dogma.

I'd love to hear more about your views as an Athiest sometime.

[rockandrose]

The ironic thing is that, I was educated at a Catholic school since I was about five up till 12th grade. Yet, I'm an Atheist.

In terms of Christianity, I have respect for Christians and their beliefs. I have friends who are Christians. However, on a general note, I don't agree with Christianity. For instance, The Old Testament and the New Testament contradicts itself not once but many times.

There has been no religion that has given me the answers to life. Hence, my questions has been left unanswered for a long time ago. Life is a mystery...

She believes in Jesus, He believes in Buddha, they believe in the Devil. I believe in beautiful things...

[nonfatsuperjesus]

LaVey believes in only one thing: MONEY! And threads like this are just what he wants, to get his name out there more. Stantists are morons. What kind of self-inflated ego does it take to believe that you are your own God. God is real and none of us are it. LaVey writes books, makes Marylin Manson a priest (or whatever) and lives in Crowley's castle. All these things are, are publicity stunts. Money=LaVey. He believes in only that. Fuck him!

[The Minister Saint-Fond]

He died almost 10 years ago. He doesn't want anything. ;^)

[Saya]

LaVey is interesting, though I think when it comes to magic and all that jazz he was a little flaky (ever read Marilyn Manson's book?) . His philosophy otherwise I don't agree with, but I can see where he is coming from. I like the "be your own god" thing. He doesn't mean it quite so literally, but more like Buddha's "be a lamp unto yourself." You don't need god because you are a strong human being quite capable of taking care of yourself, appreciate your self worth. It isn't really egotistical, its empowerment.

[nonfatsuperjesus]

Can you say naive?

[Bride_Of_Satan]

I was reading about Satanism in Kerrang! this morning. It seems pretty cool but I can see why people consider it "evil". All the guys in Kerrang! said it was about was putting yourself first and living life to the full since its so short. I agree with this but I already do that as a Christian.

[Saya]

Some people think it naive to believe in a god based on a seriously old book that proves itself wrong ^_^ Or just cowardly not wanting to be strong and self-reliant.

[MrMaelstrom]

Could be worse. They could be basing their religion on a name (satan) adapted from another language (arabic - sheitan - the adversary) by people who base their religion on a contradictory book (christians and the bible, or isn't that what you were implying?).

You see, the mere advent of an adversary is a creation of the Roman Catholic Church.

Lucifer, the fallen angel was an outcast, not an opponent.

Satan is a pure fictional character created by the Roman Catholic Church, as is the concept of Hell, purgatory and the 7 deadly sins.

Testaments contradict themselves?

Stick to ten commandments (which I'm sure you can't remember all right now) and Jesus' words "do unto others as you would have done unto yourself" and you'll find little contradiction there.


In case of doubt, throw commandments away and stick with the Jesus phrase.


Is it any clearer now? I hope that helps.

I would suggest that members do a little research before opinionating on things which aren't meant to be literally interpreted most of the time.

We're talking about document written and (mis)translated for 2000 years. We're talking about faith and dogma here. Make sure you're clear on what you're talking about before you put your foot in your mouth.

This is for all and no one in particular.



.Now, as for magic...

[mydnyght]

greetings all, and merry samhain!

i've met a few "satanists" in my day, and i have to tell ya...the ones i met were wierd!
San Jose, CA 1:45am
walking out of a small corner store one night, i satanist stopped me and mentioned he saw the pentacle hanging from my neck. i acknowledged his comment, and though i didn't really hear all of what he was saying, i thanked him for the compliment. then the gentleman went on about satanism this and that; eyes glazed over i told him i wasn't satanist, but a pagan. to make a very long story short, this guy had quite a weak will, agreed to what i was saying, even my views of satanism...and as i was leaving, this guy appeared to be talking to his invisible....somebody. (??) whatever man!!

[emeraldlonewoulf]

I am delighted to see some inquiring and questioning conversation on subjects of faith. It is interesting to see other viewpoints and that same searching for truth that is so close to my own heart.
To the Minister Saint Fond: It is amazing to me how someone who is pagan seems to have a greater understanding of God and true Christian principle that many so-called christians. You got the most fundamental parts of this faith down in a few sentences, and in the compassionate spirit in which they were first intended.

First off, from what I have been able to find out satanism can be divided into what seems at first two differing branches. One is the worship of Lucifer, as his own diety, with an accompanying set of rituals, rites of passage, and beliefs. The other boils down to a following of self, and the pursuit of pleasure, of appeasing the evergrowing desires of that self. No level of decadence or perversion is barred, regardless of how it may affect other people or ultimately yourself. It is a thinly disguised conceit, a self promotion, thinking that no other can best you and not feeling guilt or shame. At first, especially if you have been hurt greatly in the past, it may seem like a good way to go. But ultimately, the things you seek through this path only make you more hollow, more empty, more unfeeling as time passes. It is kind of like how a person becomes de-sensitized to a certain level of drugs in their system, and wants more. Or how the desire grows for an even greater high.
What most people don't realize is that the two paths lead to the same place. Throught teachings and rituals in the first version, as you get further into their belief system, things get deeper and deeper as you are gradually de-sensitized to the pain felt by others. Once this road is chosen, there are a few who escape, but not many. A friend of mine works at a psychological rehab facility that deals with drug and alcohol problems, sexual addiction, and several other types of problems. She has had direct experience with people who have suffered ritualistic satanic abuse, and I can tell you that the hooror stories you occasionally hear through urban legend about virgins being burned and sacrifice of newborn babies are based in fact. This shit, disgusting and horrible as it sounds, does actually happen. And no governmental system can catch the bad guys all the time. In fact, for things as secretive and unbelievable as these, they don't most of the time, in the rare cases when some of the same officials aren't mixed up in things somehow. Someone just disappears, and is never found. Eventually their memory dies, and no one is the wiser. So, be damn careful....literally. (On a side note, it is the same thing that happens when some priest abuses a little kid, it gets swept under the carpet. No one is the wiser, until the kid grows up and makes people listen. Even if the priest says he is a Christian, his acts are not, and the part of him that does this despicable thing is not of God. By the same token, when someone who is Satanist helps someone for the good of it, their actions are not of that evil but of good, and that part of them that strives for good means their soul isn't yet completely dead. It can be grown, the same way the evil can in the priest.)

Now, in addition to what has been said about Christianity previously, I would like to add a few things. First and formost I would like to emphasize what was said earlier:

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like unto it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' On this hangs all the law and all the prophets."

For this explanation, I'd like to look at the second part first. Obviously, this is in direct contradiction to the beliefs presented in Satanism. What many people don't realize is that in doing good for others, it helps you too. It fills the hole you cannot fill alone. No matter how satisfying doing something for your own pleasure may be, putting just as much effort into doing something for the benefit of someone else is some much better. Love begets love. Sex is a wonderful example. If you take care of your own impulses, yeah, that's fun. For a while.But if you are in a loving, long term relationship with someone, and there is a caring desire to make that person happy, and you desire to please them, your return is much greater. Love begets love. It is a simple as that. And that simple fact of life is so basic it seems it is often overlooked.

About the first part, it works the same way. God being the all encompassing power that He is, when you love Him, that love is always returned, and in a thousandfold return that is awesome and overpowering. His love came first, and is best demonstrated by His own sacrifice. The whole point of the Christ on the cross thing is about his ultimate sacrifice for us. Now, many people say, "Oh, now what about all the people before Christ, what about what happens to them?" Well, to that I say that God is not bound by time and that for Him every moment is the present. In the same vein, that is why he can listen to and answer all prayers, and how He can have as much "time" as it takes to deal with all our problems and issues on an individual basis, and how he can get to know each of us on such a personal basis. I think it is kind of like for God time is three dimensional, instead of just a line that goes one way. I think this is how he can know everything that will happen to us, and what we will do in the future, but we still have free will over our choices and why the future isn't set in stone. At least it is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Also, I would like to share a book with you, it is by C.S. Lewis, otherwise of "The Chronicles of Narnia" fame. During WWII in England he did a series of radio shows that have since been compiled into an excellent guide for anyone interested in things of this nature. It is not about the watered down psuedo-spiritual crap the is labeled as Christianity nowadays. It dealss with the unpopular subjects as well, and about the fundamental faith behind it. It gives a concrete line of reasoning for anyone who likes more than "Well, I was raised with it" or " That's just what i believe" for a reason. In fact it only contains one Bible verse. Look up "Mere Christianity". If the libray doesn't have it you can buy a copy for like seven bucks. it is well worth it and can explain things much better than I can. Check it out. It basically starts from asking "Is there even a God?" and explains Christian belief without falling back on the Bible as the answer. Because if someone doesn't believe the Bible is the divine work of God all the examples in the world from it don't do any good.

Also, my apologies for such a long entry. I'l try to restrain myself in the future.
What do you guys think about all this?

[emeraldlonewoulf]

P.S. A happy All Hallows Eve to all!

[Saya]

The second kind of Satanism you mentioned doesn't neccissarily (sp?) lead to abuse, and the Church of Satan follows a code, so its not like you do anything you want without thinking of others, as you said:

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
by Anton Szandor LaVey ©1967
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Mind you violent Satanism is VERY rare. Satanic cults outside the church of satan tend to have a half-life of six months so the members tend not to get so extreme in that time. For more information, visit www.religioustolerance.org ^_^

And as for God being all loving, well, you'll have to prove he exists. But really he was just an invention to unify the Jews. In the beginning of the Bible you'll notice he is very humanlike and never ever-present. He was supposed to be SITTING on the Ark of the Covenant, but when that went missing, THEN the story of an omnipresent God came up. Satanism is a rebellion agaisnt the lie of Christianity, the hypocrisy of it all. Love thy neighbour, except the pagans (as St.Paul says), the witches and the gays. You can kill those at your leisure. Satanism, I guess, is admitting you sin with pride instead of hiding it in shame and fake smiles.

[polished_wolf_claws]

Anton Levay is a bald, abusive fuck with a gimmick. I don't care if he was the leader of the satanic church...

Anton Levay Legend and Reality

...Even his Beloved Church speaks of this as truth.

so fuck Levay.... and fuck anyone who thinks he was something more than what he really was: a Fake.

[polished_wolf_claws]

And Don't anyone think I'm jsut hating on the church of satan. I have no problem with them, their church, their practices, their Real founder (Crowley) or their figure head (Satan, Duh)

[emeraldlonewoulf]

I did not intend to imply that the church of Satan runs rampant with severe abuse. I was merely stating that some of what is heard about some practices of the members is true, because I have seen the result of it. I know that there are people who are Satanists who do care for other people. I am saying that that is not its' main purpose, or even close to a fundamental tenet of it.
as for proving the existence of God, well, the only one who can do that for you is yourself and your own experience. For me, it has been proven. And I could share with you how that happened in my life but for one, i doubt you would believe it, because I certainly wouldn't if it hadn't happened to me, and because it deals with spiritual changes within myself. As for how God is presented in the bible, yes, that is important, but it isn't the most important thing nor does it tell everything. It tells enough for the people who will believe on the basis of it alone. It follows the history of one people and their repeated disgrace and redemption, and serves as the human side of the geneology of Christ. As for Satanism being a rebellion against Christianity, well, something has to be there for people to rebel against for a rebellion to last, and Satanism certainly has. As for hypocrisy in the Christian church, I whole heartedly agree with you, it is there. Overwhelmingly. That is one reason I lose patience with most so-called Christian churches. Christ rebelled against the churches of his time when finding they were being used improperly. He went in and started to teach people, completely interrupting the order of things within them. Not to mention starting an outright riot more than once. He himself fought hypocrisy, with vengance. Biblicly it is stated many times that it is not a human beings' place to judge, it is Gods'. As for the loving your neighbor part, that stands whether someone practices witch craft, is gay, or any other thing. you are to love them anyway. even if you are disgusted by what they do. It also says that when Christ was here he was tempted in all ways common to man, so yes, at some point or other he wanted to call upon supernatural powers other than God, he was sexually attracted to a man, wanted to commit adultery, wanted to brutally murder someone (and probably thought he had a good reason at the time) and anything else we want to do from time to time.
the difference is he had faith to withstand wrong things he wanted because he has been the only person on earth who was God, and thus new of His existence without doubt from the beginning. Even he was forsaken at his death (though not permanently, and yes that means he forsook himself ) so he could undergo punishment for all who would accept what he had done for them. That is why pride (in the conceited sense of the word) is such a problem. we can be too proud to accept something freely given that is of benefit to us. We know we don't deserve it.

as for admitting sin with pride ( i assume you mean the other variety), for a belief system that doesn't believe in sin or consequences for sin, people within it and who defend it seem to still have a reasonably clear notion of what is right and wrong. That is part of the fundamental moral law within people, although I will admit with many people it is deeply buried or wiped out. God judges people by what they do with what they are endowed with, and gives a set of guidlines through the spirit for those who have no knowledge of His law. He is a loving God, but I don't mean that in a fuzzy,warm, feel-good kind of way. His caring is of the kind that fatherly love should be, not what is commonly given through human example. It is a chastizing, "you are going to get what you have coming to you and deal with the consequences of your actions" but forgiving love. It is a bolstering thing when you need it, but also expects you to put everything you have into doing what is right. At least that is what I've gotten from it. If you look at the basic core of Christianity, I think you will find it very different from what is presented in most churches today. Very different.

[rockandrose]

Every religion poses a set of beliefs. What purpose we have in life? Why do we suffer? Who is God? Does God exist? How or who created the world? What happens after death?

There will always be zillions of questions that don't necessarily have an accurate answer. A religion gives people faith and possible or believed answers to their questions in life.

As an Atheist, I'm pleased not to have a faith in any religion. I live with my own set of choosen beliefs and possess my own mind. I tend to think rebelliously, in particular on the subject of religions.

[polished_wolf_claws]

Originally Posted by rockandrose

As an Atheist, I'm pleased not to have a faith in any religion. I live with my own set of choosen beliefs and possess my own mind. I tend to think rebelliously, in particular on the subject of religions.

And thats a good thing. It's always good to figure out a faith (or lack there of) for youself. I had Catholic Values pushed upon me by friends, family and school all my life and look how that worked out (I'm true blue pagan now )

[MrMaelstrom]

Actually, seen as I'm the local deity here, you're all going to Heck (Minimum security Hell for misdemeanors) for blabbing about the carpenter and the fallen chicken wings.



Now pray with me:

Our brother,
who art in the pub
drinks are on thy name
thy beer doth come
I know not where from
if from the bottle (stubbie)
or if from tap
give us our nightly booze
forgive the times we puke on others
as they forgive the times we puke on them
lead us not to rehabilitation
deliver us from the A-A-Amen

Bless me

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

Our brother,
who art in the pub
drinks are on thy name
thy beer doth come
I know not where from
if from the bottle (stubbie)
or if from tap
give us our nightly booze
forgive the times we puke on others
as they forgive the times we puke on them
lead us not to rehabilitation
deliver us from the A-A-Amen

[MrMaelstrom]

I adore Calvin & Hobbes . Thanks man, that was quite a compliment to my prayer improv.

[rockandrose]

In regards to the information that I have read about Anton Szandor LaVey, he comes across as a solipsist.