Evolution of gothic music

[verdelay]

Gothic music has evolved. From its putative inception sometime in the mists of the mid-late 1970's (a controversial point on its own), to its particular incarnation today, the music we identify as 'gothic' has exhibited a variety of changing tones.

When I was a wee lad, the gravitational centre of gothic music consisted of Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Siouxie, Fields of the Nephilim, Sex Gang Children, The Mission, etc., etc.,

Around this recognised core were a variety of other bands, orbiting the dark star: The Cure are a good example - their unholy trinity of early 1980's records (17 seconds/Faith/Pornography) were undeniably gothic-flavoured, while their mid-80's onwards record veered towards the 'pop' end of the spectrum; other bands active in the early-mid-late 1980's also had a 'gothic' tint, but were not widely known as goth bands (Not Drowning Waving; The Church; The Reels; Dead Can Dance; All About Eve).

So it seems to me that there is a wide penumbra of acts with gothic sympathies or sensibilities (or even individual albums) that might not necessarily be considered 'goth' even by most goths.

Take Bowie: Low and 'Heroes' had gothic moments. But you'd hardly call Young Americans or Lets Dance goth records.

Take 'Shoegaze' (I read the thread with interest): elements of this genre could be considered gothic, if 'gothic' is not narrowly defined.

The 'Old Bands' thread was also revealling on this point.

From the early 90s onwards 'gothic' music appeared (to my jaded ear) to take a tilt towards the 'heavy' end of the spectrum. Lyrical imagery became more overt, even caricatured; During the course of the 1990's the distinction between goth and metal diminished. Even glam-metal acts like Manson, Rammstein and Slipknot were bandied about as examplars of 'goth'.

(note: nothing wrong with glam. Viva Ziggy)

I'll admit that my attention waned, and these characterisations are likely coloured by mainstream appropriation and are consequently somewhat wide of the mark (set me straight, please); my point is that gothic music appears to have evolved in a certain direction from a range of possible bifurcations.

As you've probably worked out, I am a fan of the more 'romanticist' gothic aesthetic; my interest in the gothic is at the level of the conceptual, metaphysical and mystico-literary. I am more velvet than leather. I am less interested in plastic vampires as I am in the history of the occult.

I would consider my own music to have a distinct gothic tint (plug: http://harryflowers.com), but I'm not so sure that goths today would even identify what I do as 'gothic' as the musical genre has come to be narrowly defined today. I would be pleased if anyone would care to argue otherwise.

Is there still a 'penumbra' of bands exhibiting gothic sensibilities while not necessarily being pigeonholed as 'goth'?

What scope is there for the continued evolution of gothic music?

I am interested in your opinions.
vy

[horrorgirl]

There are tons of different types of music that people consider 'goth'. If a band has dark lyrics I can guarantee you that somebody will call them goth. In my opinion labeling a band 'goth' can be very subjective. What is goth to one person may not be goth to another. I,for one, don't find Marilyn Manson goth because his whole persona is an act made to frighten people on purpose. However, there are people who think that that is goth.

Also, you have to consider the generation gap that exists within the subculture. The older folks usually have a different idea of what goth music is about than the younger ones who are just getting into it. There are a lot of younger folk out there who think that goth music is all about being angry lyrics.

Again, it is all subjective.

[mydnyght]

i'd agree with horrorgirl, goth IS subjective. take for example one (of many) of my personal favorites genres, electronica. there are definately tracks that are goth, and some that are "darker" but don't really belong in the same sentence as goth. subjectivity is the nature of goth, especially music.

[verdelay]

I must agree, of course, that musical tastes are by nature subjective. Nevertheless, the coherence of an aesthetic movement relies on the drawing of distinctions. From what you are saying, it sounds like anything 'dark' can be considered gothic, in which case the situation hasn't changed very much since the mid-late 1980s: not so much 'goth bands' as 'goth music'. This is pleasing to me, as it demonstrates a certain eclecticism of taste, and a refreshing lack of elitism and exclusivity (or at least the potential for it).

The generational issue was inevitable, I suppose. 'tis the nature of incarnation. Common ground between the generations, I imagine, lies not in style or instrumentation, but rather in aesthetics. The "look" and "mood" is of more interest than the style of music. I guess that's why Dead Can Dance can coexist with all that scary monster screamo bollocks...

vy

______________________________________________
crystal discs that turn black as bronze in the sun

[Betrothed2Death]

Originally Posted by horrorgirl

There are tons of different types of music that people consider 'goth'. If a band has dark lyrics I can guarantee you that somebody will call them goth. In my opinion labeling a band 'goth' can be very subjective. What is goth to one person may not be goth to another. I,for one, don't find Marilyn Manson goth because his whole persona is an act made to frighten people on purpose. However, there are people who think that that is goth.

Also, you have to consider the generation gap that exists within the subculture. The older folks usually have a different idea of what goth music is about than the younger ones who are just getting into it. There are a lot of younger folk out there who think that goth music is all about being angry lyrics.

Again, it is all subjective.

When it comes to Marilyn Manson, if I had to label him, I would, personally, consider him Gothic but maybe not so much JUST Gothic because to me, Gothic is just a title that encompasses soo many different "types" of Goth.
When I think of "Gothic" what automatically comes to my mind is black, creepy, cemetary, Victorian, Cathedrals, Medieval, pale, Vampires, quiet, pensive, refined, art, poetry, literature, music, et all. But that's just my personal take on Gothic-Gothic.
Now, when I think of Ravers, Rivetheads, Glam Goth, Romantic Goth, Punk Goth and all of the other subcatagories, I will still admit them as being Gothic but not what the core of Goth is to me.
It is probably true that Manson puts on that image to purposely scare people but that's his image so that's what he likes. And I figure, if that's the image he likes, if those are the types of things that he is into, I can't see why he wouldn't be Goth. Sure, he spreads his "Gothiness" around and claims a lot and does a lot of things to ensure people thinking he is Gothic maybe purposely or not, but even if one does that, they're still a Goth because of what they like and not what they wear and what they do.
I believe one can not tell who is Gothic and who is not by what they wear, listen to, act or say. It's what they think and their general outlook on things that defines someone. All of those things help to encourage their "Gothiness" but not any of those alone can ensure one to be "Gothic."
And yeah that was a bit off topic since we were talking about Goth music so I'll bring it all back. As it is to people, it is to music. And since you really can't "get to know" music, it has to be based upon lyrics, messages, statements and the like to create their attachment to Goth. It's not so much the sound of the music or the image of the band, but the core, what the band is trying to say that states the band's Goth. Again, the image and the sound are also important to making the band/music all the more Gothic, but like I previously stated with people, they're not all there is to it.

[Betrothed2Death]

//edit (Since I can only edit my post for 5 mins afterwards.. wtf??! lol Oh well...)

Sorry 'bout the grammatical errors such as "if one... then they're..." but I hate having to say he or she so yeah... and if there are any others.. I appologize futhermore... I'm really tired today... bleh...

~Gaia<3

[mydnyght]

i like what you said, betrothed...and don't worry bout minor grammatical errors! well spoken.

[roserougesang]

'Gothic' music isn't necessarily depressing, it usually combines dark lyrics and music to give an eerie feel. But seeing how wide-spread Gothic music has become nowadays it is hard to describe all of it in just a few sentences.
Just a few of the subgenres are:
80s goth
Gothic Metal
Ambient
Darkwave
Electronica
Gothic Rock
Instrumental
..and many, many more.