Goth Craft....uh..what?

[DruLaCroix]

I actually own the book. I bought it because I looked through the section on Goth and thought it was interesting and informative. I like reading about the subculture, but I haven't gotten around to purchasing the Dark Reign of Goth Rock. I am also interested in various old religions, so I thought that was a good combination. I read the entire thing, and he never explicitly stated that Goth and Paganism are the same thing, although I can see how anyone could infer that from the title. The parts about Paganism were somewhat interesting, but you can't really expect much from a Llewellyn book. Actually, I heard that Llewellyn was the name of the ower of the company and that he writes occult fiction. If that rumor is true, then there's no surprise that he churned out such a line up.

But back to Goth craft, I also liked the different fashion categories. I don't they are that stereotyped, however the part about matching music to the dress style is really silly. All in all, I thought it was decent. If all the twelve year olds read the text instead of just looked at the pictures, maybe they would learn something.

[KontanKarite]

No, that's pretty much a full on fail.

I find it weird that we have yet another book out there that talks about goth but then goes into talking about paganism. I'm just confused as to WHY goth and paganism are even in the same book at all.

[Man In Room 5]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

Robert Graves' book the White Goddess is a very interesting read in regards to the meaning of European myths and folklore.

I love White Goddess. I've read it about 5 times and I have notes in the margins on almost every page. The book I wrote is actually a study of White Goddess and the impact it has had on modern paganism....which is exactly why it will probably never actually get published. It will only appeal to those pagans who have already read White Goddess or who plan to read it soon and most publishers won't take a chance on a book like that, especially if it's the author's 1st book.

[Nightmare-Neverending]

Didn't American Gods come out....a while ago? But it was an amazing book. But anyway, back on topic...I tried reading a few of these types of books before...End of the day I thought, if youre pagan, good for you, believe what you want in terms of religion...if youre buying into at least 90% of these idiots you're a sucker buying into a writer who plays on stereotypes. I'd bet 20 dollars they're target market isn't even goths, but rather people who want to be seen as goth...thus the reason they need an "into to gothicness" or any crap like that and thus why it is perpetuating stereotypes. Plus it presents a stereotype of goths being pagans, though not directly, but by saying "hey here's paganism and here's gothicness...and its packaged together...no connection, trust me".

[TheBloodEternity]

My mother read something like this and because of it she thinks that Goth is a religion and will not be convinced of anything else.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I'm just confused as to WHY goth and paganism are even in the same book at all.

Because there's a lot of idiots out there who don't realize that "goth" and "pagan" are two separate things that, even if a single person claims to be both, will always be separate things. Sure, you can have pagans that are goth, but that doesn't make gothiness and paganism combine into "pagoth" or whatever in that individual. (Though one may influence the other.) You also have Christians who are goth, but there aren't any books about Gothic Christianity as a single thing.

On second thought, I wouldn't be surprised if there was. But I sure as hell hope there isn't.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows

Because there's a lot of idiots out there who don't realize that "goth" and "pagan" are two separate things that, even if a single person claims to be both, will always be separate things. Sure, you can have pagans that are goth, but that doesn't make gothiness and paganism combine into "pagoth" or whatever in that individual. (Though one may influence the other.) You also have Christians who are goth, but there aren't any books about Gothic Christianity as a single thing.

On second thought, I wouldn't be surprised if there was. But I sure as hell hope there isn't.

Christianity has more respect for themselves than that.

[JCC]

How can you justify Paganism? I mean, not to make the assertion that your religious beliefs have to be verified by me first, but reinstating a dead religion that was deserted by its original followers because they were starting to think it was a little ridiculous seems to be a massive fail.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Paganism isn't a single religion, and not every one of them was abandoned.

[JCC]

Are there any single religions? Every religion has lots of different shitty branches. Paganism is most commonly described as polytheism, shamanism, pantheism, or animism, or spiritualism, or some other term. Each is as ridiculous as the next. Believing in many Gods, believing you can cast spells, believing in more Gods, worshipping animals or viewing them as having 'souls', 'spiritualism' is so fucking vague that nobody even knows what it means any more, but the original meaning is shit like thinking dead spirits can be contacted through mediums which is more bullshit.

The most common form of Paganism is probably Historical Paganism like Celtic or Norse Paganism. Both of these religions have a knack for being really fucking stupid. Also, there's Neo-Paganism, which is also really fucking stupid.

Seems to me that Paganism is either:

- Believing in a shitload of Gods that have been abandoned by the people that originally worshipped them anyway.
- Believing you can cast magic goddamn spells.
- Worshipping animals.
- Believing in the everlasting spirits of the dead.
- Rubbing your genitals against trees.

Maybe there's some other form of Paganism that's rational, but it doesn't seem to be well-publicised.

[Beneath the Shadows]

The many Christian denominations make up of many branches with a common root. Pagan religions, on the other hand, have nothing in common aside from being identified as "pagan." Some are related to each other, yes, like the Greco-Roman myths, or the ancient druidic beliefs that spanned Gaul and the British Isles. But then there's entirely unrelated religions, like those of the Aztecs and Mayans. Or the ancient Chinese. All are considered pagan.

If you go back far enough, it's possible that they all have the same root. But by that same token, Christianity, Judiasm, Islam, and whatever other "mainstream" religions there are would also share this same root.

[KontanKarite]

Ooh, someone's got the Bar-be on.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by JCC

Are there any single religions? Every religion has lots of different shitty branches. Paganism is most commonly described as polytheism, shamanism, pantheism, or animism, or spiritualism, or some other term. Each is as ridiculous as the next. Believing in many Gods, believing you can cast spells, believing in more Gods, worshipping animals or viewing them as having 'souls', 'spiritualism' is so fucking vague that nobody even knows what it means any more, but the original meaning is shit like thinking dead spirits can be contacted through mediums which is more bullshit.

The most common form of Paganism is probably Historical Paganism like Celtic or Norse Paganism. Both of these religions have a knack for being really fucking stupid. Also, there's Neo-Paganism, which is also really fucking stupid.

Seems to me that Paganism is either:

- Believing in a shitload of Gods that have been abandoned by the people that originally worshipped them anyway.
- Believing you can cast magic goddamn spells.
- Worshipping animals.
- Believing in the everlasting spirits of the dead.
- Rubbing your genitals against trees.

Maybe there's some other form of Paganism that's rational, but it doesn't seem to be well-publicised.

I don't think most Pagans believe that deities worshipped by ancient cultures actually rule over the universe, but rather view these personages as archetypal symbols, which they invoke to assist the working of vaguely defined magic powers whose manifestation cannot be substantiated.

[JCC]

Yes, however I also feel that every other religion is just as ridiculous. Except Hinduism and Scientology, they get an extra mark for ridiculousness.

[Beneath the Shadows]

If you want to believe that religion in general is silly, that's fine. You just made the assertion that paganism is a single religion, which is incorrect. I'm not going to tell you that your opinion on religion is wrong.

[KontanKarite]

I see paganism as a form of madness almost.

I look at spirituality and think to myself, "At what point is it a matter of spirit and soul? At what point does it become madness?"

If there was a room full of color blind dogs and one of them was NOT color blind, is that dog insane for being able to see color?

So why is it that for one person, all that crazy whims of the moon and stars, turns of the seasons, and wills of unseen gods become a fact and yet everyone else doesn't see it?

[JCC]

A better example would be that Paganism is the guy that sees a beheaded Michael Jackson doing the 'Thriller' dance in the corner of his room, and then telling everyone else that it's fact despite nobody else seeing it. In fact, that sounds like religion in general.

[Beneath the Shadows]

It's the other way around, actually. It's "the guy" who sees things differently who is an atheist. Is he wrong? Maybe, maybe not. But he is outnumbered.

[KontanKarite]

A good point, Shadows. It seems like everyone can see their gods working in some way and yet the atheist sees no gods at all at work.

[Methadrine]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

So why is it that for one person, all that crazy whims of the moon and stars, turns of the seasons, and wills of unseen gods become a fact and yet everyone else doesn't see it?

In illusion comfort lies.

[DruLaCroix]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I'm just confused as to WHY goth and paganism are even in the same book at all.

I have any even simpler answer. Raven Digitalis is Goth and a Pagan, so he combined the two in book form. Anyway, if one actually read the book and didn't just assume from the cover that Digitalis implied that Goth is a religion, one would find that he never actually says Goth is a religion. Of course, he probably knows that most people who see the book won't read it and will thus walk away with the impression that Goth is a religion. So shame on him for doing that.

But, as I stated, the book isn't really that great for the Pagan aspects. What he writes about is extremely fluffy, though not as fluffy as some other books from that publisher.

I don't really want to get into the religious debate, but... "Pagans" (which is just an umbrella term for completely different religions where some are even hostile towards each other) didn't abandon their religion because it was stupid. They were slaughtered, forced or tricked into converting, by patriarchal, Abrahamic monotheism. But that was of course, after they fought amongst themselves.

If one paid any attention, one would find that now that there are less inihibitions against the old religions, more and more people are reverting back to the old ways. Of course, most of these people are following new versions of the old ways, which to people who have actually kept up their traditions in secret (there are more people who have done that than you think), are completely ridiculous. In fact, traditional witches find Wicca and other forms of neo-paganism more ridiculous than athiests do.

Of course, athiesm is also on the rise. And personally, I think the archetypes and concepts of the old religions are interesting, but I would never actually believe in deities. But to say that humans can't do anything "magical" extremely devaules our higher sentience levels. Maybe "magic" isn't magic at all but something achievable by people who use deities as archetypes to focus their willpower during a ritual or anything else. That might sound silly to some people, but I think it's completely possible. In fact, I think it's incredibly limiting to just accept what one can interpret with the five senses. On the other hand, oppressive religions are even more limiting.

[Nightmare-Neverending]

Personally I don't think faith is a bad thing...it is the institution of religion that is the problem. I have a christian friend who is highly religious and he follows the moral teachings of the bible, and he believes all the stories and everything and he is fine, because he wants to live up to the bible, he wants to be a good person. But when the messages are paraphrased and interperted by people with agendas...then you get problems. If you believe in god and that belief allows you to hold onto morality its fine, but when people control others using religion or sell the institution of religion through 10, 20, 30 dollar a pop "omg, be cool and be a pagan" books...that is when there is a problem, because its not the person's faith anymore, it isn't god, its the man made instition of religion which is a twisted mind fuck of brainwashing.

[RhiannonJ]

Originally Posted by Man In Room 5

I just noticed this thread and I wanted to say something about how majorly stupid Digitalis' books are

And how many of his books have you read? It's hard to imagine that anyone could be so bitter towards a publishing company unless that person had been turned down by said publishing company (hmm); especially someone whose writing is so "majorly"... major. You have surely convinced us all that you are the coolest not to mention most erudite guy in these here forums--a regular word-slingin' badass.

N.B. Digitalis' second book became available two days ago--you must have one wicked time-traveling machine since clearly you've already read and judged it.

[TrivialMorose]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I'm just confused as to WHY goth and paganism are even in the same book at all.

It's funny to pretend to be so baffled about it, after all, you also said in this thread:

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Why is the goth subculture so entwined with such a special breed of idiot?

...

Goth = dark romantic. And there certainly is something darkly romantic in the way we look back at the pagan religions. Not a big leap, then, as you very well recognized yourself, to lump them in one book.



Necro'd.