Pain pain blah more whining!

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by JCC

That's agnosticism, not atheism.

Don't listen to ape_descendant. He is to me as xjin is to you. Read what I said about this.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

Don't listen to ape_descendant. He is to me as xjin is to you. Read what I said about this.

I'm sure he is... *raises an eyebrow*

Unlike xjin, I can relate well rounded ideas.. and unlike you.. I know how to clarify said ideas.

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

Unlike xjin, I can relate well rounded ideas..

I don't think so, princess.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

I'm sure he is... *raises an eyebrow*

Unlike xjin, I can relate well rounded ideas.. and unlike you.. I know how to clarify said ideas.

Your existence is a pretty good argument against the case for a compassionate interventionist god.

[ART]

This seems like a good time to remind JCC about the concept of free will, of sin, purgatory and eternal damnation.
The christian churches has thought long and hard about how to explain the fact that the world isn't all peachy despite a good God that is both omnipresent and all powerful.

The man with the razor would probably claim that their explanations seem a little more complicated than what is ideal, but still.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

Agnosticism is more along the lines of saying that if there is a god, such a being would be beyond our grasp and unknowable.

An atheist merely lacks a belief in a god or gods, and one is stil atheistic if one does not believe in god, but admits that one could not really know for sure.

I am in this camp. I lack a belief in a god or gods because there is no evidence for them. I do not say that I know for sure that god doesn't exist, and if there were good enough evidence of such a creature I would certainly change my mind.

I also think the same way about pixies and unicorns.

No, seriously, JCC is right. That's not ATHEISM.


a·the·ism [ey-thee-iz-uhm] - noun

1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.

2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. (clickable link)

You can't be an Atheist if you simply lack a belief in a god.
You must actually deny that a god could exist.
.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by ART

This seems like a good time to remind JCC about the concept of free will, of sin, purgatory and eternal damnation.
The christian churches has thought long and hard about how to explain the fact that the world isn't all peachy despite a good God that is both omnipresent and all powerful.

The man with the razor would probably claim that their explanations seem a little more complicated than what is ideal, but still.

Thank you for that, my comment was definitely born out of a misinterpretation of theism rather than facetious.

[ART]

Lets see. Belief and disbelief.

be·lief   [bih-leef]
–noun
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

dis·be·lief   [dis-bi-leef]
–noun
1. the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.
2. amazement; astonishment: We stared at the Taj Mahal in disbelief.

Nothing in these definitions make the one you quoted mean that the possibility of an existing deity must be denied for the conditions of atheism to be fulfilled.

Care to elaborate?

[ART]

Originally Posted by JCC

Thank you for that, my comment was definitely born out of a misinterpretation of theism rather than facetious.

Quite.

Plus, I am bored.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

and unlike you.. I know how to clarify said ideas.

Clear does not equate to dumbed-down. If you have trouble understanding what I say, you're too dense for me to bother with anyway.

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

No, seriously, JCC is right. That's not ATHEISM.


a·the·ism [ey-thee-iz-uhm] - noun

1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.

2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. (clickable link)

You can't be an Atheist if you simply lack a belief in a god.
You must actually deny that a god could exist.

No shitty argument is complete without a dictionary definition.
Dictionaries are designed to assist people who don't know the meanings of words. They are not elaborate disquisitions on the nuances of a school of thought, and therefore often err on the side of succinctness. Wikipedia would actually serve you better.
No logic-driven atheist will assert that the absence of a creator is provable, only that it is uncorroborated by any evidence and therefore not a possibility worth considering.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

No, seriously, JCC is right. That's not ATHEISM.


a·the·ism [ey-thee-iz-uhm] - noun

1. the doctrine or belief that there is no god.

2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. (clickable link)

You can't be an Atheist if you simply lack a belief in a god.
You must actually deny that a god could exist.
.

Definition # 1 seems to refer to strong atheism

Definition # 2 seems to refer to weak athiesm

Strong atheism = Says, "There is no god."
Weak atheism = Lacks belief in god.

As far as the definition of Athiest goes, there are more than just one one in mirriam-webster.

To treat agnosticism, one can be a theistic or atheistic, agnostic. A theistic agnostic believes in a god but believes that one cannot know the nature of said god. An atheistic agnostic does not believe in a god, but believes that one may not know wether or not there is a god.

I got my information from Atheism: the case against god. It is written by George H. Smith, the book specifically treats atheism and establishes a realistic definition of atheism.

As far as weak and strong atheism go, here's a like to part of an epsiode of the Atheist Experience, that specifically treats it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuIwS37mcO0

[Alan]

Agnosticism deals with whether we can know something or not. Any scientist is an agnostic because science assumes that anything discoverable is also falsifiable and not just absolute truth.
Saying one is an agnostic regarding god is stupid because it didn't answer anything. There is a world of difference between "we can't know but obviously I'm not going to go about my life believing in something unprovable" and "we can't know so I will believe for shits and giggles"

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

Clear does not equate to dumbed-down. If you have trouble understanding what I say, you're too dense for me to bother with anyway.

Clarifying definitions in an argument or debate is necessary. Its not dumbing anything down but rather establishing exactly what is meant when a certain word is said.

I never said anything about having trouble understanding you, and rather enjoyed your head-flower analogy.

And I guess I shall have to learn to end my sarcastic remarks with "/sarcasm" as such highly trained, super intelligent minds such as yours are often misled by the use of the winky face. /sarcasm

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

No shitty argument is complete without a dictionary definition.

Dictionaries are designed to assist people who don't know the meanings of words. They are not elaborate disquisitions on the nuances of a school of thought, and therefore often err on the side of succinctness. Wikipedia would actually serve you better.

No logic-driven atheist will assert that the absence of a creator is provable, only that it is uncorroborated by any evidence and therefore not a possibility worth considering.

Point taken, and well made. Thank you for the correction.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

Definition # 1 seems to refer to strong atheism

Definition # 2 seems to refer to weak athiesm

Strong atheism = Says, "There is no god."
Weak atheism = Lacks belief in god.

As far as the definition of Athiest goes, there are more than just one one in mirriam-webster.

To treat agnosticism, one can be a theistic or atheistic, agnostic. A theistic agnostic believes in a god but believes that one cannot know the nature of said god. An atheistic agnostic does not believe in a god, but believes that one may not know wether or not there is a god.

I got my information from Atheism: the case against god. It is written by George H. Smith, the book specifically treats atheism and establishes a realistic definition of atheism.

As far as weak and strong atheism go, here's a like to part of an epsiode of the Atheist Experience, that specifically treats it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuIwS37mcO0

Well, my opinion is largely informed by books such as "A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam" by Karen Armstrong. (Figured I'd drop a book reference in as well.)

However, as gothicusmaximus has correctly pointed out, it is a crappy discussion and I took a weak shortcut in posting one dictionary definition that served my needs. Mea culpa.

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Mea culpa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRA2Zv-ZvEw
Sorry had to post it.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

I had always thought Atheism means without religion as a whole.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Well, my opinion is largely informed by books such as "A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam" by Karen Armstrong. (Figured I'd drop a book reference in as well.)

However, as gothicusmaximus has correctly pointed out, it is a crappy discussion and I took a weak shortcut in posting one dictionary definition that served my needs. Mea culpa.

Hmm I'll have to check that out some time. Thank you.