Magdelin Laundry

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Oh fuck you Solumina.

What do you want me to do, write you a fucking list? No. Gnet ain't a confession booth and I'm not Catholic.

I think a list would be helpful, not that you would have to post it and it isn't something that you have to confess but something that you yourself should be aware of. Honestly for me it isn't about getting you to admit being wrong but for you to be aware of your own biases and privileges so that you can understand how they affect you, your life, and the people around you.

For now though I'd be really thrilled if you answered these questions

Originally Posted by Solumina

Why should anyone have made a thread? It's not like it was new information and when compared to what women go through in other parts of the world it isn't even surprising. Also do you always shrug off learning of human rights violations if it isn't presented in just the right way? Or just the ones that you could never see happening to you?

Oh and if it was something you had just then found out about why didn't you go wait a minute, WHAT?

Especially that last one.

[Versus]

That's not what I meant at all. I'm not trying to silence you, I want you to listen. But you can't do that when you put your walls up and your ego is shouting over me. I didn't say anything to you at first because your immediate response was to presume that you know what I want to say and presume you're right in a phantom arguement. Your posturing does not demonstrate you are in the listening position.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Versus

It's not just religion, it's misogyny manifested within religion. Think about it like when we were talking about racism and capitalism in the anger management thread, you know?

No, I get you, Versus. I really do.

But. I've decided that probably one of the better things for me to do is own my hatred of religion. I actually DO hate it. I find knowledge through revelation and "special" individual knowledge passed down from up high to a handful of hysterical prophets and the adulation of those madmen to be patently offensive and ugly.

I don't disagree with you, it's that I simply am not surprised that it manifests this way. Of COURSE it would. I don't see religion being deformed by a bunch of mad dog patriarchal fucks; I see these religions, particularly the Abrahemic religions to be INHERENTLY sexist. They're an instructions manual on sexism AND supremacy.

Sure, you can get people like theological academics to try to find the BRAND NEW historical revelation that seems to make those religions seem relevant and palatable to our modern sensibilities... you know... I'm sure there's some way to make it seem like it was okay for Abraham to sacrifice his own son; but what do I know? I'm an atheist that will freely admit that I hate religion so clearly I must have it wrong.

Honestly, I don't even want to weigh in on this shit anymore. When I see fucked up shit like this coming from religious beliefs; I can't even be surprised anymore.

To me, it's very much like knowing you can't have capitalism without sexism, racism, and imperialism. You CAN'T. There's no such thing as a capitalism with a human face. Just like the way I see the most popular Abrahemic religions. You can't have them without self-hatred, sexism, absolutism, and a whole shit load of excuses.

I'll leave it at that. I don't even expect you or anyone else to agree. For now, I'm accepting that I do hate religions OUT OF HAND. Eventually, I'll have to engage in special cherry picking of these institutions and I've tried that a bit so far, but I can't help but side-eye the shit out of Liberation Theology that somehow managed to find the keys to democracy and social justice from a manual of absolutism and sexism.

So I shouldn't even be in this conversation.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

So I shouldn't even be in this conversation.

Maybe another time, then. I can only go so far with religion without just talking out my ass, anyway.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Solumina

I think a list would be helpful, not that you would have to post it and it isn't something that you have to confess but something that you yourself should be aware of.

You should probably read some of my plays. SWZ:A actually deals heavily with my realization of white male privilege. I also haven't posted about my activism lately.

Suffice to say I am aware of it, whether you believe me or not (and this conversation and others has convinced me that some will never believe it, and I've made peace with that).

Why should anyone have made a thread? It's not like it was new information and when compared to what women go through in other parts of the world it isn't even surprising.

I personally found it to be very surprising, and it was new information.

Also do you always shrug off learning of human rights violations if it isn't presented in just the right way? Or just the ones that you could never see happening to you?

Context is important for the absorption of information. I submit this article as an example.

The TLDR version:

A violinist stands up in a DC subway station, and begins to play. He plays for 43 minutes. Over a thousand walk past, barely giving him a second glance. 27 give him money ($32), no one stops for more than a few seconds, a minute or two at most.

The violinist was Joshua Bell, one of the best in the world, who currently is able to command around $1000 a minute for a live performance.

Do people not recognize great art? No. People recognize it, otherwise he wouldn't be able to draw huge crowds which gladly pay hundreds and thousands of dollars just for a seat it's the context in which his art is present.

To assume sinister callousness on my part in that threat, is the same as assuming that everyone who passed Joshua Bell by is a tin-eared uncultured swine. You are incorrectly attributing a certain level of conscious or unconscious agency to what is actually a very simple psychological phenomenon.

It's not about what I personally need to absorb something. I'm talking generally about what people regularly need to absorb or recognize something. Keep in mind, I'm not the only one who missed it: everyone but you missed it.

Oh and if it was something you had just then found out about why didn't you go wait a minute, WHAT?

I don't know. It was two years ago. See above. It could've been any number of reasons.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Versus

That's not what I meant at all. I'm not trying to silence you, I want you to listen. But you can't do that when you put your walls up and your ego is shouting over me. I didn't say anything to you at first because your immediate response was to presume that you know what I want to say and presume you're right in a phantom arguement. Your posturing does not demonstrate you are in the listening position.

You are assuming quite a bit, when you know very little about me Versus. I would like to get to know you better, but this is a two-way street and you don't seem to be interested at all.

Reading your argument that it is inappropriate for me as a white man to use the word "slave" as this is a radicalized word commonly understood to be on par with the N word in America, and how I am maliciously engaging in racist dialogue, has left a sour taste in my mouth. Needless to say I do not agree, However I think further discussion on the subject will not be constructive. So it may just be better if we never speak again.

I would like to actually be friends with you again, Versus, but it does not seem to be something that is capable of happening now, and I don't have the time nor the inclination to continue this discussion with you.

As Kontan says, that bridge has been burned, and I don't feel like rebuilding it on my own, so duces.

[CuckooTuli]

Originally Posted by Versus

Acharia and CuckooTuli; I think what's important right now is not necessarily that you understand the issue, but that you know that there is an issue that you do not understand.

You don't need to know the problem, you need to know that there is a problem.

Originally Posted by Solumina

You hit the nail on the head, there have been other threads where Desp's complete inability to acknowledge his privileges in a meaningful way has very much come into play and lots of nastiness ensued.

This is the thing, though... I don't like the idea that past wrongs make everything out of a person's mouth automatically worthless. Sure, you're going to give someone a harder time if they're spewing shit you have to deal with from them INCESSANTLY, because patience is not (nor should it be) an infinite resource. But I really didn't see anything in this thread to warrant the reaction he got. From where I'm standing, it looked like he was just trying to open a dialogue on an issue he recently found out about, and got shut down on the basis that he's talked some shit in the past.

We've all said things in our time that are problematic, or maybe even utter bullshit; I know I have. Doesn't mean we can't learn anything from a discussion though, and this seemed like it had the potential to be an interesting one - if only from being such a recent, hidden event (I only knew about it because I watched The Magdalene Sisters a few years ago, and found it shocking that these things happened so recently, and so close to home).

Not knowing doesn't necessarily equal not caring, or caring to to know - like Acharis said, the flow of information is HEAVILY controlled. Also, we are constantly changing as individuals, and the same information can affect you very differently after familiarising yourself with the nuances of the issues it throws up.

Don't get me wrong, I get being shit out of patience and thinking "I'm not your bloody mother and it's not my job to teach you how to give a fuck about other people than yourself"; I just didn't see anything in this thread to warrant yelling Cracker von Patriarch.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

you can't have capitalism without sexism, racism, and imperialism. You CAN'T. There's no such thing as a capitalism with a human face.

May I have a suggestion for reading material?

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Miss Absynthe

May I have a suggestion for reading material?

Before we start...

Are you actually interested in the communist critique of capitalism or do you just not believe me?

If you don't believe me, then I BEG you to demonstrate to us how capitalism can be beyond imperialism, sexism, and racism?

Read up on the history of Natives. Read up on the history of well... anything really.

If a bad idea or a bad behavior is profitable, then why would the capitalist NOT indulge in it? Capitalism is inherently an amoral system. You can't have capitalism without exploiting someone.

[Versus]

I don't know why you quoted me along with Solumina. We're talking about two different things. What you quoted me saying was in reference to when you and Acharis said that you didn't see what the problem is. But...

Originally Posted by CuckooTuli

This is the thing, though... I don't like the idea that past wrongs make everything out of a person's mouth automatically worthless. Sure, you're going to give someone a harder time if they're spewing shit you have to deal with from them INCESSANTLY, because patience is not (nor should it be) an infinite resource. But I really didn't see anything in this thread to warrant the reaction he got. From where I'm standing, it looked like he was just trying to open a dialogue on an issue he recently found out about, and got shut down on the basis that he's talked some shit in the past.

Nobody said his original post was worthless. Actually, Acharis even pointed that out and nobody had an objection with tha statement. My contention was with something else, and I addressed that. Of course you're not going to see why I did it that way because, as you already said, you're missing context. My interaction with Despanan since the occupy thread has consisted of:

My arguement with him saying that NYPD officers should risk their jobs because it's the right thing to do and they morally wrong for not doing so.

An argument to his post on Facebook that ALL theists have some kind of advantage over him, as an atheist.

My kudos to him for not tolerating some ass hat from occupy who said that people shouldn't be publically denounced for hatefull anti-gay language and discourse on his Facebook.

Our mutual agreement that it's possible the NYPD's more aggressive officers might be displaying something like The Lucifer Effect.

Him responding to my challenge of someone comparing the NYPD to "Hitler and The Jews" with a private message that said "Yeah, unfortunately people have a tendency to exaggerate." I didn't say anything because I wanted to respect his wish that I not explode on his personal Facebook, but it just infuriated me that he wouldn't even police that bullshit off his own fucking wall.

So yes, I'm out of patience and had dropped the bullshit side line after I heard enough. I don't give a fuck what his intent was, that isn't ever a fucking excuse, as I have already said.

We've all said things in our time that are problematic, or maybe even utter bullshit; I know I have. Doesn't mean we can't learn anything from a discussion though, and this seemed like it had the potential to be an interesting one - if only from being such a recent, hidden event (I only knew about it because I watched The Magdalene Sisters a few years ago, and found it shocking that these things happened so recently, and so close to home).

I've even said things ON THIS FORUM about racism that would be contradictory to a lot of other shit I say, like the N word doesn't bother me and people who are offended are just pussies; I was at an indescribably angry point in my life and was venting at anything and everything. The thing is that I have demonstrated otherwise since then. From what I have seen, he has not appeared to have understood, and I am within my boundaries to not be dictated when he has changed his understanding by anyone except MY direct observation. I don't care that he might have policed his shit, not until I actually see it and make that determination on my own. It didn't help that nobody here stopped him from engaging in a discussion. Really, a discussion didn't even take place. I might have been able to start one if I hadn't let Saya keep talking to him about something else, though I really didn't care because it looked like he obviously wasn't interested in hearing what I had to say from the start.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Despanan

You should probably read some of my plays. SWZ:A actually deals heavily with my realization of white male privilege. I also haven't posted about my activism lately.

Suffice to say I am aware of it, whether you believe me or not (and this conversation and others has convinced me that some will never believe it, and I've made peace with that).

I think part of the problem is that you know on an intellectual level that white privilege and male privilege are things that you have but the way that you act when confronted with those privileges is very defensive and indicates that you aren't comfortable acknowledging that there are places and times where those privileges mean that you need to listen before you speak and that in those times and places the voices, opinions, and experiences of others hold more weight than yours. There are subjects that you could devote a lifetime to studying but you could never understand and that is a hard thing for most people to accept, myself included. There is a reason why I haven't commented on race in this thread, it's because at a core level I just can't get it. I mean intellectually I understand, I understand the historical meaning and power of the word slavery and the oppression of PoC but no matter how much I learn or how much my own oppression helps me to empathize I'm still and outsider. I've been hurt, both physically and emotionally, because of my ethnicity but even so I don't know what it is like to be a person of color and that took me a very long time as well as some very specific events to realize.

It isn't about knowing that you have these things it's about knowing what having these things means you don't know, if that makes any sense.

Originally Posted by Despanan

I personally found it to be very surprising, and it was new information.

Quite frankly it isn't the job of the oppressed to educate the privileged every time a topic related to their oppression comes up. That is a lot to expect of someone, not only in terms of the sheer amount of time, energy, and effort that would take but also because of the risk you are asking them to take. Some may be interested in learning about it but most people really don't like hearing about other people's oppression and some react in extreme ways and even people who are sometimes willing to listen are volatile other times. If you see something new and shocking or you see something that you think needs to be talked about then start the conversation but know that you are coming from a position of privilege and that you, through no action of your own, are in the position of the oppressor and not the oppressed so ask about the topic do not tell. I know it is a fine line and isn't how a lot of people typically approach things but it is something that not only is helpful but frequently necessary for there to be any meaningful dialogue.

Originally Posted by Despanan

Context is important for the absorption of information.

Yes it is, if you only see something is passing and there is nothing more to it then you will not absorb the information, that is why it is important for things to be discussed and not overlooked. That is why it is important for people to ask question and when they see or hear something new it is important for them to acknowledge it. That does not mean that everyone gets a free pass for overlooking something wonderful or something atrocious just because it wasn't presented to them the way they expect to see such things.

Originally Posted by Despanan

Do people not recognize great art? No. People recognize it, otherwise he wouldn't be able to draw huge crowds which gladly pay hundreds and thousands of dollars just for a seat it's the context in which his art is present.

If you are told something is beautiful long enough you will see it as beautiful even if it is repulsive. If you are told something it ugly long enough you will believe it, no matter how pleasing you used to find it. If you are told something is important enough times you will find it important. If you are told something does not matter then eventually you will believe it. This is how oppression thrives. It is up to every single person to be aware of these messages and to see past the filters they give us.

You are clearly aware of these filters please don't let them just be excuses for why things are they way they are, force yourself to see beyond them. I know you have that in you, that is why I'm trying to have this discussion and that is part of why I get so frustrated. You are obviously an intelligent guy, you do care about others, and you know that you have privilege, it would be easier for all of us if you were just a lost cause, someone who is ignorant of the whole issue or who just doesn't care but you're not. You're someone who is on the right path, and quite a ways down it, but doesn't see that you do still have farther to go.

Originally Posted by Despanan

You are incorrectly attributing a certain level of conscious or unconscious agency to what is actually a very simple psychological phenomenon.

No I'm not, I'm quite aware of the phenomena at work. What I find wrong with what is going on is that you are also aware of that and you aren't challenging it. I am not surprised that you don't remember, I'm troubled by the fact that you don't find it troublesome that you could have seen that and not question it, that you could brush off having hear about such a travesty and doing nothing about it, not even asking a single question.

The thing about that experiment done by the Post and experiments like it is that people usually react to finding out by wondering how the fuck they could have not noticed something like that. You didn't do that, you essentially said "I'm not the problem, it wasn't done right" and that kind of thinking is problematic.

Originally Posted by Despanan

It's not about what I personally need to absorb something. I'm talking generally about what people regularly need to absorb or recognize something. Keep in mind, I'm not the only one who missed it: everyone but you missed it.

I'll never know if others didn't care or don't remember or completely missed the post but that isn't the point. Something isn't excusable just because it is common, if anything the fact that it is common makes it all the more important for all of us to make and effort to change it.

Originally Posted by Despanan

I don't know. It was two years ago. See above. It could've been any number of reasons.

You're right, it could have been any number of reasons but I still think it is an incredibly important question for you to ask yourself. The Madgelin Asylums were truly awful things, ask yourself truthfully how you could have responded to learning of them for the first time by making a cheap jab at Sternn. I don't need an answer but you need to reflect upon it.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Before we start...

Are you actually interested in the communist critique of capitalism or do you just not believe me?

If you don't believe me, then I BEG you to demonstrate to us how capitalism can be beyond imperialism, sexism, and racism?

Read up on the history of Natives. Read up on the history of well... anything really.

If a bad idea or a bad behavior is profitable, then why would the capitalist NOT indulge in it? Capitalism is inherently an amoral system. You can't have capitalism without exploiting someone.

I'm actually interested in the communist critique of capitalism.. well, any critique of capitalism, really. I know on a personal level that capitalism is bullshit, but saying "because it seems really mean" doesn't seem like a particularly valid proof and I've tried googling for reading material but "why is capitalism wrong" and "problems with capitalism" don't work well as search terms.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Miss Absynthe

I'm actually interested in the communist critique of capitalism.. well, any critique of capitalism, really. I know on a personal level that capitalism is bullshit, but saying "because it seems really mean" doesn't seem like a particularly valid proof and I've tried googling for reading material but "why is capitalism wrong" and "problems with capitalism" don't work well as search terms.

Well it IS mean. It's a valid complaint.

I'm really not sure how to start on this. There's so many instances where capitalism isn't favorable at all in any sort of worker's rights and collectivism.

Here's an example essay of the Chicago Boys in Chile where the system of capitalism was allowed to run rampant. http://www.rrojasdatabank.info/econom~1.htm

I think the fastest thing I could say about capitalism and its dangerous implications is that its primary goal is to achieve a maximum amount of capital within the hands of one person or a few at any means necessary. The reserve worker army(unemployed and underemployed workers) are used to drive wages down. A desperate worker may be able to bargain for a pittance of what a worker is actually worth in order to secure some safe employment that allows them to get by with eating and paying rent. That's one way in which capitalism is sinister against everyone.

For me? I really can't suggest much information on communism simply because I tend to take a more defensive position in the debate against capitalism and communism. I take the positive assertions of capitalism and point out where they're problematic.

The most aggressive statement that I can say about communism is that it's pretty much inevitable. At some point, the working class and the poor will have no choice but to realize communism as they wont even be able to afford to dream about the bourgeois myth.

I think the best place to start is imagine that YOU are a business owner. You control the access to employment to a number of potential employees.

Who are you going to take? The highly competent one who demands you pay them what they're worth or the guy willing to go with a little less to do the same kind of work?

What makes more financial sense in terms of business? Hiring a small team of full time employees that you also have to pay insurance on or simply automating the records and hiring an army of part time employees where you can pay them pretty much the same amount that one guy would get paid full time and avoid having to pay any insurance on them?

If you can see where the goal of capitalism lies (in profits [buying very low and selling very high]), then you can start to see where the problems lie.

There's profit in keeping the working class divided amongst racial, gender, and orientation lines for example.

I'm rambling. There's really too much to cover. I might suggest you check out reddit and its subreddit communism if you want to at least learn about it to some extent.

[Miss Absynthe]

Thank you. I'll start reading.

I'm in the middle of arguments with my employer because I am refusing to sign up to a 'voluntary' incentive scheme that promises a 10% bonus to permanent employees if certain budget goals are met. One of the reasons that I've been giving him is that it's unfair to the casual staff who do as much work (and often work harder because they get shunted all the work that no one else wants to do) and aren't eligible for the scheme.

The conversation degenerated to me stating quite loudly that my loyalty didn't have a price.

I think he's confused by this idea.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Acharis

I do give a rats ass.
When there's domestic violence upstairs, I ring the police to make the man realise people are aware of his aggression to his partner, and hold him accountable for his actions. I don't do this because she's a white woman, she's Aboriginal.

When a friend told me there was an illegal brothel opposite us that had trafficked Asian women in the past, I watched it for some time afterwards. When I met someone in a social setting who worked with sex workers organisations, I asked her about it and was relieved to hear it was now a legal one. I still worried about sneaky trafficking though, anything sus and I start doing tip offs.

You probably meant white people in general historically and I'm probably going to be told I'm tokenising, but my point is if I can know about something I don't accept or condone it.

Do you want an ally cookie? Good for you for being a basic decent human being, but if you care, its not about you when people say white people don't care about PoC. In the grand scheme of things, white people don't care. We don't like PoC. We don't like PoC so much we dont' even think about them or notice they're not there in our lives when we segregate ourselves from them. We don't care that language has power, and we do not like being denied power over them when they ask us not to use words that are racialized.

I understand though. There was a media uproar when Jill Meagher was taken off the streets (euphemism), and some people said that it was due to 'Missing White Woman Syndrome'. I think that she also got disproportionate coverage because her assault followed the traditional script that **** culture teaches everyone to expect. Pretty married white lady, local area, stranger in the bushes...

The media reports what people can relate to, and a lot of the time that's through a privileged and overwhelmingly White lens.

Its not just what we're used to and what we relate to. White people are not an overwhelming majority, market wise it would make more sense to include diversity but we're stubborn about not allowing it. For example, another media tactic is the demonization of black men. Trayvon Martin was responsible for his own death for wearing a hoodie (while black.) It wasn't very long ago our parents and grandparents were lynching black men for whistling at white women. I've seen rrape awareness ads that show a white girl with a black man's hand around her mouth and it goes on to talk about how to avoid rapists. Our hatred for black men is psychotic but its presented as natural, normal, and they're to blame. I do believe women are often blamed for their own assault, but if black men **** white women, Kobe Bryant is the only example I can think of where they were willing to look the other way.

However, the Magdalene Laundries are information that I've recently found out about, it happened in my lifetime and I'm pissed that the Catholic church has gotten away with such serious humans rights shenanigans (even for them) until so recently.

It reminds me of history when women were also considered property like cattle, used for labour and had no reproductive rights.

We're also used to make supposed allies feel better about themselves when they pick and choose what they're going to care about and what they're not going to care about, but above all they don't want to talk to us about it.

Saya, I'd like to stop you there. Much of this information on PoC isn't given't coverage, due to an admitted bias in the media. While it sucks that people aren't informed about issues you care deeply about, think about if information is actually getting to people before you say they just don't care.
Ignorance of these issues is not always due to a malice, laziness, or white privilege on the part of the individual. More lack of that information.

Despanan isn't a poor guy with no education living in poverty, he's older than me, more educated, involved in OWS where I know this has been hashed out a lot, and his parents are rich and until recently supported him financially. I cannot think in any way in which I have privilege over him.

I'd also like to talk about privilege. You seem to have assumed that everyone has the same access to information and opportunity to absorb it that you do.

As I just pointed out, Desp has more. I'm talking to him on an individual basis as someone who has all the resources at his finger tips and yet always wants you to take the time and energy to educate him.

I'm not going to say much, but for years I didn't have access to technology or people that would speak with me and give a wider political context.

My brain space and energy was spent on finding stable housing, preserving my personal safety and negotiating the barriers formed by my own mental illness, and I didn't have consistent access to the technology that carries current information.
I didn't get to partake in further study, so the only reason I can discuss these concepts with you is from outdated feminist literature, my own experience, general reading and self education in the few years since I saved enough for laptop and internet access.

My situation was backwards and extreme, so it's not relevent for most.
But access to information (sometimes requiring access to technology) and the stability to concentrate on that non-essential to survival are pre-requisites to being able to look at the wider issues. Not every member of society has that.

I get that a lot of times people miss the point or don't bother to learn because they have the privilege of not ever having to worry about it.

But I don't call ignorance a privilege. I call it a disadvantage.

I'm from a similar background, I'm from a tiny town that only got highspeed internet a few years ago and I was 22 by the time I got my own computer. I was not born knowing this shit.

But the thing is, you don't have to know everything. That is far from the point. I sure as shit don't know everything about racism. I'm white, I never can. But when Versus calls me out on shit, I apologize and go figure out what I did wrong. Like a while ago I was talking about this white supremist group and I refered to them as white power groups, and he asked me not to. I really had to go think about that one, and now I do feel like a dumbass, but its not his job to educate me. That would be exhausting, to be responsible for his own education and mine and Desp's and your's and all of Gnet's. A person can't do it all, and its not fair to ask them to.

[AshleyO]

Wow....

That's pretty cool of you. Way to show some solidarity with the other workers.

I hate that it may come to bite you in the ass later though. I don't hold it against you.

[Despanan]

Okay, I wasn't going to say anything, but I'm not dealing with this fucking slander. I should correct some things here:

An argument to his post on Facebook that ALL theists have some kind of advantage over him, as an atheist.

We never finished that. My bad. Also, you are the one who made this claim, as you listed it criteria to determine the existence of religious privilege.

And yes, they do. For instance their organizations are tax-exempt. Atheist organizations are not. Done. Argument over.

But that's another discussion.

Him responding to my challenge of someone comparing the NYPD to "Hitler and The Jews" with a private message that said "Yeah, unfortunately people have a tendency to exaggerate." I didn't say anything because I wanted to respect his wish that I not explode on his personal Facebook, but it just infuriated me that he wouldn't even police that bullshit off his own fucking wall.

That wasn't my wall you asshole and those weren't my friends. That was the wall of the girl who took the photo. I'm not going to be a shithead to people I don't even know on someone else's wall, who just did me a favor by documenting my arrest. I don't know her friends, I don't her, I don't know the guy who said it.

How dare you not even take the time to tell who's goddamn wall that conversation was on, and how dare you judge me without doing so.

So yes, I'm out of patience and had dropped the bullshit side line after I heard enough. I don't give a fuck what his intent was, that isn't ever a fucking excuse, as I have already said.

You seem to think you know so much about me. There is someone in here with an ego problem and it's not me Versus.

I've even said things ON THIS FORUM about racism that would be contradictory to a lot of other shit I say, like the N word doesn't bother me and people who are offended are just pussies; I was at an indescribably angry point in my life and was venting at anything and everything. The thing is that I have demonstrated otherwise since then. From what I have seen, he has not appeared to have understood, and I am within my boundaries to not be dictated when he has changed his understanding by anyone except MY direct observation. I don't care that he might have policed his shit, not until I actually see it and make that determination on my own. It didn't help that nobody here stopped him from engaging in a discussion. Really, a discussion didn't even take place. I might have been able to start one if I hadn't let Saya keep talking to him about something else, though I really didn't care because it looked like he obviously wasn't interested in hearing what I had to say from the start.

You have your head shoved so far up your ass it's surprising you can talk. I can't provide evidence for you because you're spending so much time figuring out how to read my invisible racist actions and thoughts. Your interpretations of my use of virtual slave/slave behavior as premeditated purposeful racism is fucktardedly stupid, just like your idiotic quibbling that I'd apologized to Saya and not to you. Fuck you. That was a general apology, it just happened to be in a post where I was addressing Saya.

I started off with virtual because I value precision of language, not because I thought slave was inappropriate for white people to say, because guess what it's not. It is in no way comparable to the N word and it's stupid that you would even make that comparison. "Slave" is used regularly by both white and black people in our textbooks, our popular fiction, on our news programs and in our popular culture in general.

It may make you uncomfortable and as a word or action does not have to have intent to be racist, it only has to offend, and in that sense it IS racist for me to use it in your particular presence but YOU are not the voice of the black community, and I have never heard another black person claim that the term slave was to be exclusively used by black people, or that I would need permission to use it, and since you have provided no evidence besides your own personal outrage, I can only conclude at this juncture that you are batshit insane.

Fuck you Versus, you egotistical presumptuous dicktwat. I don't need your permission and I don't need to earn your good graces. Your obsession with identifying and interpreting the things that go on inside my head, your presumption that YOU know what I'm thinking, and YOU know the secret invisible racial motivations behind my actions have turned your head in as surely as a theist interpreting bird signs.

Fucking bird-signs Versus, because guess what? That's where you are. You have reasoned your brain into a cul-de-sac.

I hate to bring it back here, but I've seen this shit before:

1) White people can never understand the plight of People of Color

2) Non-believers can never understand my personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Saya

I can't describe what the religious experience feels like

You may not be a person of faith Versus, but you are certainly using the master's tools: Special Status, revealed incommunicable wisdom, thought-crime, fucking submission and PENANCE.

It's all there.

You may not be a person of faith, but mark my words, you are taking this whiteshaming in the case of this thread to a cultish level and I am not about to put up with it.

So fuck you. I'm out. Feel free to circle a few more things on your stupid little bingo card, I know who I am.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Miss Absynthe

I'm actually interested in the communist critique of capitalism.. well, any critique of capitalism, really. I know on a personal level that capitalism is bullshit, but saying "because it seems really mean" doesn't seem like a particularly valid proof and I've tried googling for reading material but "why is capitalism wrong" and "problems with capitalism" don't work well as search terms.

Check out the Black Panther's archive:

http://www.marxists.org/history/usa/...hers/index.htm

[Miss Absynthe]

If it comes back to bite me in the arse, then it's more proof of the problems with trying to incentivise people with monetary rewards.

[Versus]

Sign. Everybody else understands that wasn't my argument, right? That I wasn't comparing slave to the N word and that slave doesn't bother me?

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Versus

Sign. Everybody else understands that wasn't my argument, right? That I wasn't comparing slave to the N word and that slave doesn't bother me?

Then what the fuck is your deal? If it doesn't offend you, and it's usage is consistent with the proper definition, how could it possibly be inappropriate for me to use it without permission?

Are you just trolling what the hell?

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Saya

But when Versus calls me out on shit, I apologize and go figure out what I did wrong. Like a while ago I was talking about this white supremist group and I refered to them as white power groups, and he asked me not to. I really had to go think about that one, and now I do feel like a dumbass, but its not his job to educate me. That would be exhausting, to be responsible for his own education and mine and Desp's and your's and all of Gnet's. A person can't do it all, and its not fair to ask them to.

That's interesting. I don't even remember that. It's almost like you took it at face value instead of me encroaching on you and we just got on with our lives.

Weird. I don't get it.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Versus

That's interesting. I don't even remember that. It's almost like you took it at face value instead of me encroaching on you and we just got on with our lives.

Weird. I don't get it.

Maybe its because I'm learning to distrust the feelings of defensiveness and discomfort that I get when I'm called out and just trust you when I say something that betrays my blindness to racism. Maybe its how we built up a trust and a love that burns with the passion of a thousand Tatooine suns.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Then what the fuck is your deal? If it doesn't offend you, and it's usage is consistent with the proper definition, how could it possibly be inappropriate for me to use it without permission?

Are you just trolling what the hell?

Trolling?

I'm fucking done right now.

[AshleyO]

I grow so tired of revolution...

Everything is so... soviet on G.net now.