Christianity...

Godslayer Jillian · 10-03-2006, 05:34 PM

This thread is not for bitching about Christianity, but it didn't fit in any category, so I just decided to place it here.

You all know (or most of you, at least) that I'm a Satanist. The possibility that there's a personal God seems as improbable to me as thinking public schools are not a near monopoly.

But, I'll play the Devil's advocate, or, we could say, God's advocate, in this thread.
I've been taking a class called Apologetics that it literally "how to defend the Christian faith". And, although I do not believe in their god, their statements, arguments, and evidence are amazingly solid.

So, the point of this thread is: Might Christianity, the most practiced religion in the world, be right after all?

I want you to question some things and argue other things I say. If I don't have an answer, I'll ask my professor next class.

The goal of this thread is for you people to finally accept Jesus Christ in your hearts and be saved because he loves you.

Nah, not really. I just want to see what arguments can you help me come up with. I have a strong enough belief system to not be moved by what I've learned, and still keep an absolutely open mind about it, but do you?
Basically, what I'm saying is that in this debate, I implore you to make me lose.

So, I ask, what are some things you can think that make Christianity wrong?

BlackButterfly · 10-03-2006, 06:18 PM

That whole "turn the other cheek thing".

Granted, this is a noble thing to do, but after a while, it just seems like stupidity.

It sounds a bit silly (I thought of this at about age 12 or so), but I like to put it this way: The human body has a grand total of 4 cheeks, and two of them face in the same direction, so you get 3 chances max in my book. After that, revenge is MINE!

Put more intelligently, you can take the first instance of a seemingly malicious act and put it into the possibility of "This person is ignorant of what he/she has done."
The second instance, "Maybe I have unknowingly done something to offend this person."
After the third, it's most likely safe to deduce that this person is a dirty bastard and you should put him/her in his place.

What is your stand on this?

Godslayer Jillian · 10-03-2006, 06:28 PM

Well, my own mentality would be "Bitch! I'm taking you down."

But Jeus did give us a number of times to fogive someone: seven times seventy.
Someone doing you wrong doesn't make it right for you to wrong them.

BlackButterfly · 10-03-2006, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

But Jeus did give us a number of times to fogive someone: seven times seventy.
Someone doing you wrong doesn't make it right for you to wrong them.

What a random number... what is the basis for such a thing, aside from (depending on the act) it would take a lifetime to reach that count...

...and morally, it's not right to wrong someone who has wronged you, it IS rather stupid for you to keep sticking your butt out when you know that person is only going to kick it. I'd still at least tell them about themselves, let them know I see them, and nix them for good (instead of say... blowing up their house, or flattening their tires at the very least...). But what happened to the "eye for an eye" and "do unto others?" If your good deed is not being returned, maybe it's better to follow the example being thrust at you.

Godslayer Jillian · 10-03-2006, 06:54 PM

Oh, but the good deeds are not limited to this life, and the actions we do will be held accountable after we die.
(keep in mind I'm talking from a Christian point of view, not mine)
Besides, a different value system and moral code will not change the fact that God exists if indeed he does.

Darkbender423 · 10-03-2006, 08:08 PM

Oh yea...one of my favorite topics! All I know is that I do not subscirbe to the idea of organized religion. As far as seven times seventy thing, you'd have to be a glutton for punishment to let someone screw you over 490 times and forgive them. In my book you don't get that many chances before you feel my wrath. I am forgiving and I believe that people make mistakes but I would tend to loose my patience after like three times of being betrayed, depending upon the naure of the betrail of course. If there is a heaven and we are held accountable for our actions there then most of us would not be there. Now we move on to the issue of absolution and being saved. If we are saved does that really take away all the evil deeds we've done in the after life? Is god going to hold us accountable or not or is this just a trick to get people to accept responsibility for the things they've done in this life?

Let me ask you this Jillian, and you know I like and respect you very much, you say you are a satanist. If you do not believe in god how can you believe in satan, one cannot exists without the other as they are both formed from the same text, the bible. The entire concept of satan is inherently a Christian concept. I've read the bible and I've read the satanic bible and I don't disrespect anyone for their belief. People shoud believe whatever makes them happy. I personally believe in energy, the energy that creates all physical matter is a universal thing that moves and live in everything, pure in essence knowing no good or evil, it simply is. People use this energy in the way they see fit. But I digress.

There are so many things to debate about the Christian religion and this thread will probably grow into one of the longest on the site. I would start with the whole virgin mother thing. How do we buy this? Is it possible that Mary cheated on her man and was trying to cover it up? "Honey..really I'm a virgin..I swear..god did this to me". I don't think I could ever buy that one. It's like a fairy tale and I believe the bible is a story book, mythology. What is it that seperates theology and mythology? Not much really.

Godslayer Jillian · 10-03-2006, 08:56 PM

Well, deviating from the Christianity subject a little. I'm a LaVeyan Satanist. My Satan is not the biblical Satan. Satan is a symbol; not an existing deity. Satan is a representation of several things; nine statements to be specific.
Enter this link http://churchofsatan.com/home.html click on the "theory/practice" link, and click on the nine satanic statements and you'll see what Satan stands for according to LaVey.

Going back to Christianity...

Quote:

If we are saved does that really take away all the evil deeds we've done in the after life?

Yes indeed. Deeds are not the way to Heaven.
You reap what you sow, but you only have eternal life if you accept Christ as your savior.

On the virgin Mary...
Your statement only has validation if you do not believe in the biblical God. He parted the seas for his people; He gave us life with His breadth; the Son performed many miracles. It's not impossible, nor surprising, for the Virgin Mary to have been a virgin when she had Christ.
From a Naturalist point of view, no one would give the Bible a chance. But what if miracles are real?
The disciples were direct witnesses of these miracles, and we have written testimony of that.

Born Again · 10-03-2006, 09:04 PM

The subject of "God" is very powerful and has claimed many lives and caused many misfortunes. I respect every one's religious choices, and I am not preaching whats right and whats wrong.

It is in our nature to have a "belief" or the sort, something to abide by, something to conform to, even Atheism. Without such a thing, our race would be plain and simply "lost."

In most religions, there is an after life of some sort. As young children, we were promised if we were good, we would see Jesus in Heaven when we died. We lived up to this promise, not 100% of course, but to a degree. Knowing that there is something better on the other side, helped many of us fight through the frustrations and negative aspects of life. It was promised, but required obedience.

As Darkbender stated below, how can you not believe in God and be a Satanist?
From my understandings of the Bible, God created Satan. When Satan disobeyed God, God kicked him out of heaven and into the fiery pits of hell.

Something I have always wanted to ask a Satanist:
Jillian, you of course know heaven is owned by God, Hell is owned by Satan. Do you know where you'll end up when you die? Do you even fear for your after life?

Godslayer Jillian · 10-03-2006, 09:10 PM

If people are interested, or even worried about satanism, I'll resurrect a thread we had on it right now.

(I think it is in the Spooky News section)
But this is not the thread for my religion.

Darkbender423 · 10-03-2006, 09:28 PM

Yes I am familar with the work of LaVey, I read the Satanic bible, although it has been about 16 or so years ago, so it is no fresh in my mind. I will go to the link you provided and brush up on it again, thank you for that. I do recall the representations you speak of.

That is the main problem I have with Christianity is that there are so many "what if's". I do take the naturalist view on the subject. I don't accept the things that many would have us believe. To me the bible seems more like a story book and less like a facual accout of real life. It's all like a fairy tail. It is very difficult to argue with the people who firmly believe in the religion. They have an answer for everything no matter how fantastic it may be.

So we can perform unspeakable acts of evil and cruelity til the day of our death and so long as we become "saved" in our final hours we will have eternal life? Doesn't this seem a little convienent? It's like strip mall salvation....

I personally do find it difficult to accept many of the "miracles" that are said to have occured. Do you feel that all that has been written comes down to a matter of faith? These things are only real if one chooses to believe what they are being told is the truth, there is nothing more to it than stories in a book. A book written and translated again and again by the hand of man. Granted they will say the hand of man guided by the hand of god.

Do me a favor and ask your professor about the difference between mythology and theology. I would be interested to know his response.

Godslayer Jillian · 10-03-2006, 09:44 PM

That's a nice question, and luckily I have the class tomorrow.

On the theory that people say that the bible changed by the hand of man in over a millennia of circulation, there is one thing that many to not take account of:
We have early manuscripts to test the accuracy of our contemporary bible.
We have copies of the New Testament written within a couple of generations after the death of Christ.
More than five thousand New Testament Greek mauscripts have been catalogued.
Compare that with the 650 manuscripts of the Iliad we have, from about 200-300 A.D. And Homer composed the epic at about 800 B.C.
And in addition to Greek, we also have Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Gothic, Ethiopic manuscripts.
A fragment of parchment containing part of John 18 was written at about A.D. 100 to 150.

ViciouslyBeautiful · 10-04-2006, 02:36 AM

I heard from somewhere, looong time ago, when Jesus was being crucified he said God God help me, something like that, it was written on somewhere Was it the holy spirit he was addressing, or . . what??
And so, I know this is moronic, but who was the God before he was crucified?

Darkbender423 · 10-04-2006, 10:50 AM

Even taking into account the early manuscripts, these documents were still written by men and influenced by their translations of the events that transpired during that time. "God" did not come down and write the texts with "his" own hands. I know that the common argument of theologist would be that "God" guided the hands of the men doing the writing. I find it difficult to believe that a person colud sit and write without expressing their own personal beliefs on the subject. Where are the text written by the hand of Christ himself? God moves thrugh the spirit of man, man is subject to his personal and worldly beliefs and influences. I think that these would naturally flow through to the text. Mainly what we get are paraphrased second hand versions of what Christ may have said and these are almost always subject to personal interpretations of the meaning of what was actually said by Christ.

Mr_Knuckles · 10-04-2006, 11:16 AM

Nice thread Jillian! It makes me happy to see someone who is open minded about things, and willing to discuss them. =D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkbender423

So we can perform unspeakable acts of evil and cruelity til the day of our death and so long as we become "saved" in our final hours we will have eternal life?

It depends on if the person is actually sincere in their confession. If not, which is most likley, then they won't be saved. There are two requirements to being saved. 1) You believe (have faith) that Jesus can save you of your sin (died and was resurected), and 2) that you confess that before other people (read Romans Ch10 v9-10).

On the otherhand, if the person is actually sincere, and infact gets saved, then this brings other things into account. In Heaven there is different levels of "rewards" according to your "works". Don't confuse this with being saved, as it's separate. "works" won't/ can't get you to Heaven. Anyway, the greater the works the greater the reward, lesser works get lesser rewards. Works without faith is not rewarded. (took me a while to find this: 1 Corinthians Ch3 v13-15 & Rev Ch20 v12-13)

Quote:

That whole "turn the other cheek thing".

Granted, this is a noble thing to do, but after a while, it just seems like stupidity.

This is figurative also. It's meant more along the lines of "revenge is not the answer". Also it's not saying to constantly put yourself in that situation. When the Pharasees tried to take Jesus to kill him, many times He walked away.

Did Jesus "turn the other cheek" when He tore through the temple twice w/ a whip in hand running off the people who where there selling things for profit?

Quote:

I heard from somewhere, looong time ago, when Jesus was being crucified he said God God help me, something like that, it was written on somewhere Was it the holy spirit he was addressing, or . . what??
And so, I know this is moronic, but who was the God before he was crucified?

Mark Ch15 v34- I'm not sure about that, but most people understand it as when Jesus died, he was bearing all sin (past, present, and future), as he was the sacrifice for sin. Being that all this sin was bore on Jesus, God could not look upon Him. This is what I've heard, but not positive about it myself. He was addressing God the Father.

The Christian God, collectivly "Jehova", is comprised of 3 seperate but integral parts: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Similar to how Humans are comprised of Mind, Body, and Spirit. Even though Jesus (God the Son) was on Earth dying, God (God the Father) was still in Heaven.

Quote:

Even taking into account the early manuscripts, these documents were still written by men and influenced by their translations of the events that transpired during that time. "God" did not come down and write the texts with "his" own hands. I know that the common argument of theologist would be that "God" guided the hands of the men doing the writing. I find it difficult to believe that a person colud sit and write without expressing their own personal beliefs on the subject. Where are the text written by the hand of Christ himself? God moves thrugh the spirit of man, man is subject to his personal and worldly beliefs and influences. I think that these would naturally flow through to the text. Mainly what we get are paraphrased second hand versions of what Christ may have said and these are almost always subject to personal interpretations of the meaning of what was actually said by Christ.

I think what Jillian was getting at was that if we have the old documents, we can test the validity of the new documents. They have, and there were only minor gramattical errors. This doesn't skew the "moral of the story" so to say. The point can be gathered from the old texts just as well as the new texts. Also, if you were a believer of the said texts, read, and copied "anyone who shall take away from these books, also shall their name be taken out of the book of life"...... my opinion is they were very careful.

Here is a question: If someone dies never knowing Christ, or practices some other religion never hearing of Christ, what is their judgement?

c130 · 10-04-2006, 11:36 AM

Who was it who decided Jesus had died for our sins?

Godslayer Jillian · 10-04-2006, 04:17 PM

I don't quite understand the question, but I think I can answer it if I mention some things.
The coming of the Messiah had already been prophesized in the Old Testament.
Jesus fulfilled all of these prophecies. Some examples are that the Messiah would ride a donkey into Jerusalem. Sure, he could have worked his way around these prophecies he might have known, but what about the prophecies that no one could work around?
Like, the specific lineage of the Messiah, the place of his birth, the method of execution, that soldiers would gamble for his clothing, that his legs would remian unbroken...
And most importantly, Daniel 9:25 specifies the date of the coming of the Messiah.
"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [d] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [e] the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble."
King Artarexerxes I issued a decree to rebuild the walls in Jerusalem. After that decree, it was a matter of time. An exact matter of time.
It was foretold that Jesus would come and specified the reason of his coming.

BlackButterfly · 10-04-2006, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Knuckles

Also, if you were a believer of the said texts, read, and copied "anyone who shall take away from these books, also shall their name be taken out of the book of life"...... my opinion is they were very careful.

So what about all the books that were "taken out" in some versions of the Bible, like the Apocrypha? Where is Lilith in the book of Genesis? Why does it seem so impossible that Jesus could have possibly had a wife considering that, aside from being a miracle worker and "the ultimate martyr", he was an otherwise normal human being? These things don't seem believable, and it smacks of possible "tweaking" done to preserve a desired image...

c130 · 10-04-2006, 04:41 PM

Well every couple of years one prophecy or the other claims that Jesus (a messiah or saviour, to generalise it) will return to Earth, and it's been that way for centuries. Is it not possible these prophecies have been told for millennia? When real life matched up closely enough to one of the prophecies, it would be considered miraculous and proof of the divine, wouldn't it? Once in several thousand years sounds about right for the chance of the prophecy matching real life; the monkeys and typewriters phenomenon.

On top of that, practically any culture you'd care to name has some kind of prophet or prophecy in its past, so Christianity is nothing special in that respect. There's even the fact that Christianity was created *after* Jesus died, and the Catholic church has butchered many of his important teachings for their own purposes, and stolen things from religions that came before it (such as Paganism). All of that means that even with the copies of the original documents, a lot of it was chopped, changed and mixed up before it was put down on parchment... and Jesus wasn't one of the people writing it all.

There's still no actual divine intervention in any of this that I can see.

[edit] Sorry if this makes little sense. My brain's fried from staring at a still life all day. I know what I mean. :P

Godslayer Jillian · 10-04-2006, 04:51 PM

In respect to BlackButterfly's post:
Well, Lilith was only a theory, taken by occultists and unorthodox Catholic factions.
The reason of Lilith's existence was that in Genesis, the word female is referred to before Eve was created. Some began pondering: "Could Adam have had another female before Eve."
But if you read Genesis, you'll see that the versse "man and female, He created them." is also there before Adam.
This is not because there was another Male and another Female before Adam and Eve. It was just a summary of the days of Creation.
There are some reasons some texts are not in the Bible. The texts had to meet a certain criteria: Apostolic Authorship (John, Matthew, and the letters such as Romans and Philippians were written by the apostols, even Mark was written by the companion of Peter)
There's also agreement with other scriptures. Some apocryphal books are simply too different from the four gospels to be considered real evidence. It's obvious these have been poetically enhanced, after all, the apocrypha were indeed written several enturies after the death of Christ.
For example, the Book of Thomas, written at about the mid-second century, speaks in a very misoginous way: "Every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven." That contradicts Jesus' attitude toward women.
The Secret Mark gospel says that Jesus came out of his tomb as a giant, literally beyond the sky, and the cross comes out of the tomb and actually talks.

Godslayer Jillian · 10-04-2006, 04:57 PM

In respect to c130's post:
You have to consider the specificality of the prophecies (e.g. That soldiers would gamble for his clothes)
The probabilities that he could accomplish only eight of those prophecies (the number of people existing since the last prophecy was foretold, permutated by each of the eight prophecies) is astronomical. And they were not only eight prophecies.
Even if at some time it would have happened, a thousand years is too little time for all possibilities to come up; beisdes, as in a previous post I said, the approximate dates of Jesus' birth were already narrowed down.
And actually yes, I feel that the Catholic Church desecrated many of Jesus' teachings, but that's the reason Protestantism came into existence.

Splintered · 10-04-2006, 05:09 PM

Protestanism, in my opinion, was more embraced (Note the word embraced, not created), as a purely economic move. The local lords found it unprofitable to pay the Church, so they didn't. The excuse to the people? Protestantism, the Angelican Church, etc.

What are some things that can make Christianity wrong? Hell, alot of things, from it's contradictions in Gensis (The Two Creations), to the torment in Deutoronomy and Leviticus (Jewish Law, ironically combined with the Ten Commandments), to the oddball Revelations (Seven seals? Okay then...). Just read the Skeptic's Annotated Bible for a good look into some of the fallacies.

My personal favorite: The Lack of Testability. There is no way to empirically test Christianity. If something goes right, it's the work of God. If something goes bad, it's the work of the devil. Pure and simple. You can't test for either of these entities (They defy the laws of physics, and everything else), and there is no way to judge whether they are there. It then comes to the arguement, "Absence, doesn't mean evidence of absence". Sure, it may not. But it does mean; "No reason to believe", as well.

That's Christianity's biggest flaw (And ironically strength), in my opinion.

Godslayer Jillian · 10-04-2006, 05:51 PM

Ahh, I see you think like I do.

That's always the way I discuss about Christianity: from the fallacy of their ontological argument for the existence of God.

Godslayer Jillian · 10-04-2006, 11:33 PM

There's something puzzling me. Which two Creations do you mean?
Aside from that, I don't see how Deuteronomy is ironic along with the Ten Commandments?
If there is a god, he wrote both the Ten Commandments and told Moses just what to write for Deuteronomy.
If God doesn't exist, Moses still wrote both of these.

Splintered · 10-05-2006, 03:05 PM

There are two accounts of the creation of Adam and Eve in Gensis.

First, you have Genesis 1 (I am purposely bolding it, pay attention to that), 25:27.

"And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image."

And in Genesis 2 (Once again, bolded), 18-19.

"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Then, in Gensis 1:27

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.".

While in Gensis 2:18-22

"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."

And in Deutoronomy, the essential, "Be peaceful, here are the ten commandment thingies, play nice and all that", you have:

7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

12:27 And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.

17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them

And it goes on and on like that. So, I find it ironic that the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" (Which is actually incorrect, if I remember right, it's "Thou Shalt Not Murder"), is coupled with all of these, "Kill! Kill! Kill!", type stuff.

c130 · 10-05-2006, 03:18 PM

Makes stereotypical Satanism sound peaceful. :o