When does the goth die?

[ugh...]

No, I don't mean physically. I mean when would you call the inner "Goth" in a person dead? I've been thinking a lot about this lately... When would you say someone is no longer Goth?

Is it when you see them in jeans and a tee-shirt at the local Abercrombie?
Is it when you hear them driving by listening to the local teenie-bopper station on the radio?
Is it when they go to a different "non-Goth" club and end up dating a hyperactive preppy cheerleading teenager?
(these are just examples of what I've heard people saying would "kill Goth")

Is it possible for the Goth in them to ever die?
Is it possible that there was never any Goth in them to begin with?
If they leave the local Goth scene, is it possible to ever come back?
Is there a point of no return where they can never regain their gothic lifestyle?

I personally don't know. I know all of us have a few non-Goth parts of their lives, but when is it too much?

[Clockwork]

If you have it in you, I don't believe it can be denied. It ends only with physical death.

[Minyaliel]

I can only answer for myself... Goth, to me, is an inseparable part of me. Take it away and you'll only have an empty shell. That's rather creepy to think about, but it is true. I could well live without the gothic subculture, but the dark aesthetic is a great part of my soul. I think I'd rather go for a long drop and a sudden stop than getting separated from goth, because it is such a strong influence on my personality, art and daily life that I wouldn't have anything to live on for if they were to be taken away from me.

[Arashi]

I don't believe that anyone who was ever actually "goth" would have that part of them die. It would be part of who they are.. it wouldn't just die..
To me, if someone was involved in the gothic subculture and then suddenly has that die, then they were just trend followers. They never had the inner-goth thingy(please excuse that word) in the first place..

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Goth to me never dies. Like Clockwork, I feel it dies with physical death-though it's not an offical divine prophecy-it's a lifestyle and a beautiful thing generally, just shunned by some. And like Miny, it's a part of my soul. If someone goes with it for a phase and then forgets of it then they never really were goth-see where I'm going?

[GothGarl]

I don't believe that a person's inner goth can die. However, I believe it can be suppressed, masked or hidden by those who do not want to be associated with the Goth subculture. I beleive this because being Goth refers to so many different parts of a human being. It includes a persons individuality, creativity, sense of style, musical preference, lifetsyle, the way they view the world around them, etc...

[GothGarl]

If a person who was Goth suddenly do all that you have mentioned above it's either because they were never Goth to begin with or they are trying extremely hard to change their image. It does not necessarily means that they are no longer Goths internally.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Yeah... I completely disagree with just about everything I have read here.
Someone can be a goth, and after five years, you see him, and he's wearing jeans with a polo and a brown leather jacket.
Words such as "ends only with physical death" "take it away and you have an empty shell" and "inner goth" are the most pretentious thing I have seen, at least this month.
You make it sound like it's a religion.
By saying that if someone stops being goth then he was never really a goth, you are saying that Goth is a maximum state of being of which there's no turning back.
I have a message for you:
Goth is not the Rubicon.
There's no such thing as a 'death of Goth'. It's just a change.
People can change. Someone can acquire other musical tastes. Someone can decide that he'd rather blend with society. Someone can decide that changing the identity doesn't change the personality.

Here's the only valid answer to this question:
Q-When does the goth die?
A-N/A

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

There's no such thing as a 'death of Goth'. It's just a change.
People can change. Someone can acquire other musical tastes. Someone can decide that he'd rather blend with society. Someone can decide that changing the identity doesn't change the personality.

If such changes do not make the person stop being a goth, then that could only mean the person was not goth to begin with, or it takes something more to change or 'kill' them (or maybe it can't even die.) Or is there another possibility that I'm missing?

I was implying that simple superficial choices, such as wearing "jeans with a polo and a brown leather jacket," doesn't make a person un-goth because it isn't that superficial.

[Saphyra Runa]

Something I know about since I had left the Goth subculture approximately 20 or so years ago. If you are truly Goth it never dies inside of you. I tried suppressing it for all those years. I listened to those around me who told me I couldn't keep dressing and acting "that way" if I really wanted to be an adult. So I kept trying and never felt comfortable in my skin. No matter how hard I tried I was still that really odd woman who saw, felt and laughed at things differently from those that consider themselves socially acceptable. All that suppression made me an angry, bitter woman. Now I am much happier and it has been noticable by my co-workers and my button down boyfriend.

I may have left the subculture but Goth had never left me.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

If such changes do not make the person stop being a goth, then that could only mean the person was not goth to begin with

Those changes do allow someone to stop being goth. Imagine tomorrow I being dressing normally, listen to nothing but classical music, and will slap anyone that refers to me as a goth. Would you say I was never a goth? Or would you call me a 'goth in denial'?
Both of those options are ridiculous. One can choose not to be a goth.
Really, saying that person was never a goth seems as if the person that said it is resentful that someone tasted and didn't like the subculture.
Don't fall into that stupid claim that 'he was never a goth to begin with'
It's the same lame thing my Christian teachers say about me because now I'm an atheist.

[Minyaliel]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Yeah... I completely disagree with just about everything I have read here.
Someone can be a goth, and after five years, you see him, and he's wearing jeans with a polo and a brown leather jacket.
Words such as "ends only with physical death" "take it away and you have an empty shell" and "inner goth" are the most pretentious thing I have seen, at least this month.
You make it sound like it's a religion.
By saying that if someone stops being goth then he was never really a goth, you are saying that Goth is a maximum state of being of which there's no turning back.
I have a message for you:
Goth is not the Rubicon.
There's no such thing as a 'death of Goth'. It's just a change.
People can change. Someone can acquire other musical tastes. Someone can decide that he'd rather blend with society. Someone can decide that changing the identity doesn't change the personality.

Here's the only valid answer to this question:
Q-When does the goth die?
A-N/A

Somehow, I think we're back to the old question of "what is goth" again. I mean, no goth listens to gothic music exclusively, and we all know that dressing "normally" is not a deadly sin. But I don't think anybody could leave that dark aesthetic that goths share entirely behind. Goth is not a religion. It is a word that helps other people describe what I already am. That's my take on the matter, at least. Feel free to disagree with me on any and all things I've said; I can't say that I care much, to be honest.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Those changes do allow someone to stop being goth. Imagine tomorrow I being dressing normally, listen to nothing but classical music, and will slap anyone that refers to me as a goth. Would you say I was never a goth? Or would you call me a 'goth in denial'?
Both of those options are ridiculous. One can choose not to be a goth.
Really, saying that person was never a goth seems as if the person that said it is resentful that someone tasted and didn't like the subculture.
Don't fall into that stupid claim that 'he was never a goth to begin with'
It's the same lame thing my Christian teachers say about me because now I'm an atheist.

To be honest, I might be slightly inclined to call you a goth in denial, unless you truly resolved to change yourself, deep down. I just don't think that such a change can happen overnight, though I'm not ignorant enough to suggest it can't ever happen.

Maybe it boils down to how you interpret the question "When does the goth die?" I think the inclinations can be suppressed, and eventually obliterated...

[Saddiction]

My take on it is yes. People who have self-identified as goth in the past/present can be a totally different person in the future. I agree with what Jillian says. I have known LOTS of people who were into the subculture when I was still in highschool. I see them now after many years have gone by and they are completely different people. This is not to say that they were just 'posing' during highschool (or shortly after). This is to say that people change. Wether it be their outlooks on life, their personality, their tastes in music, or their style.

[Valerius]

From what I learned during my past lurkings around here is that 'goth' is something to be desired, therefore we can never really be 'goth' because once we've attained goth-ness we no longer possess the drive to be goth, which would make us un-goth.

So, in my opinion, a person's inner want for goth dies when he no longer wants to be goth.

[Lucretia_my_Reflection]

MOAAHAHAHAHH the inner goth shell never die.

[KontanKarite]

Goth/ic is an artistic movement in the 80s. It has influenced music and fashion. The goth subculture, I have found, is really a strange thing. It is based on the artistic movement, but the damn thing is so diverse, that you can't define the person within and assumptions will fuck you up royally in it.

You can be heavily influenced by this artistic movement, even today. Hence, you are a "goth".

Essentially, the goth in you can really only die after you have decided/realized that the gothic art movement does not apply to your life anymore.

If HR Geiger made a painting of someone cutting off a man's head and Picasso does the same thing, are they both goth? Nope.

If you're thinking about the mindset, then those are honestly personality traits and not every goth will share the same personality traits. These traits don't go away without an effort on your part.

Then again, I've been seeing the boundaries between the artistic movement and the subculture. Calling the subculture goth is just a very easy way to call it for convenience. Everyone knows that a goth is really a wildabeast and the wildabeast does not die.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by ugh...

No, I don't mean physically.

I mean when would you call the inner "Goth" in a person dead?

When they have lost ALL interest in it, or they are dead themselves. Using another time from my life long ago: I was horseback riding every weekend, Western style riding, which then exposed me to country-western music, and long story short, I was eventually wearing pointy toed cowboy boots. ::gasp:: Yes it's true. Now, I do not listen to country anymore, nor do I ride horses and am thinking of burning my cowboy boots at the stake on a moonless night. But every once in a while I fondly remember horseback riding and think: yes, there might still be a little tint of country bumpkin in me.

Originally Posted by ugh...

When would you say someone is no longer Goth?

When they become Pope?

Originally Posted by ugh...

Is it when you see them in jeans and a tee-shirt at the local Abercrombie?

Not necessarily.

Originally Posted by ugh...

Is it when you hear them driving by listening to the local teenie-bopper station on the radio?

Not necessarily.

Originally Posted by ugh...

Is it when they go to a different "non-Goth" club and end up dating a hyperactive preppy cheerleading teenager?

Not necessarily.

Originally Posted by ugh...

Is it possible for the Goth in them to ever die?

I think so, yes.

Originally Posted by ugh...

Is it possible that there was never any Goth in them to begin with?

Possible, yes.

Originally Posted by ugh...

If they leave the local Goth scene, is it possible to ever come back?

Yes!

Originally Posted by ugh...

Is there a point of no return where they can never regain their gothic lifestyle?

I was going to repeat "when they die" but now that I think about it, that would make them Uber-Goth!

Originally Posted by ugh...

I know all of us have a few non-Goth parts of their lives, but when is it too much?

When you use your Siouxsie t-shirt to wipe up something you spilled on your Coolio CD.

[mrs.wes straker]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

When they have lost ALL interest in it, or they are dead themselves. Using another time from my life long ago: I was horseback riding every weekend, Western style riding, which then exposed me to country-western music, and long story short, I was eventually wearing pointy toed cowboy boots. ::gasp:: Yes it's true. Now, I do not listen to country anymore, nor do I ride horses and am thinking of burning my cowboy boots at the stake on a moonless night. But every once in a while I fondly remember horseback riding and think: yes, there might still be a little tint of country bumpkin in me.

I'm sorry to hear about this. :-P I was part of the country music radio station's club in NJ as a kid. I know, I'm an odd black person.

[BlackDahlia]

Unless large chunks of brain are removed, I'm not turning into Suzie Homemaker any time soon.

[xmorpheus]

I do love these threads. I mean, hang on - who actually gets to decide what's Goth and what isn't?

The Goth Pope?

Is there a master book somewhere that tells the story of the very first Goth and his 12 friends and gives a list of criteria that must be met in order to be Goth?

I stopped doing the Goth appearance thing many years ago. It was a matter of survival. I live in a small and very narrow minded country and there wasn't a cat's chance in hell of me getting a job with purple hair and a lot of black eyeliner. Well, not in the area I wanted to get into. These days you might get away with it - but not in the late 80s.

I didn't hand in my Cure records, my Anne Rice collection and my dark interior with the clothing.

My mindset has never changed.

I put it to you that anyone who thinks that clothes and makeup determine what is Goth are not Goth at all. Anyone who places that much stock on appearance should really be on the cheerleading squad, don't you think.....???


*having lit blue touchpaper, stands back to a safe distance and giggles her ass off*

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by ugh...

If they leave the local Goth scene, is it possible to ever come back?

Goth allows U-turns.

[mrs.wes straker]

Originally Posted by xmorpheus

I do love these threads. I mean, hang on - who actually gets to decide what's Goth and what isn't?

The Goth Pope?

Is there a master book somewhere that tells the story of the very first Goth and his 12 friends and gives a list of criteria that must be met in order to be Goth?

I stopped doing the Goth appearance thing many years ago. It was a matter of survival. I live in a small and very narrow minded country and there wasn't a cat's chance in hell of me getting a job with purple hair and a lot of black eyeliner. Well, not in the area I wanted to get into. These days you might get away with it - but not in the late 80s.

I didn't hand in my Cure records, my Anne Rice collection and my dark interior with the clothing.

My mindset has never changed.

I put it to you that anyone who thinks that clothes and makeup determine what is Goth are not Goth at all. Anyone who places that much stock on appearance should really be on the cheerleading squad, don't you think.....???


*having lit blue touchpaper, stands back to a safe distance and giggles her ass off*

This is fine, and I'm kind of on the same page as you, but the consensus says that goth DOES involve aesthetics, very much so.

[xmorpheus]

Well in the goth world I inhabited, consensus and peer pressure was the main thing we were trying to get away from.

Black garbed cheerleaders. We must all be the same or we will be excluded - ridiculed by the rest of the pack for not conforming.

*sigh*

To me the bottom line is what I consider myself. Not the opinion of a bunch of people on the internet - or the shopping mall - or some smokey bar somewhere.

If the goth dies, it's probably because those of us who date back to an earlier incarnation of goth let it die rather than having what we are dictated to us.

[mrs.wes straker]

Originally Posted by xmorpheus

Black garbed cheerleaders. We must all be the same or we will be excluded - ridiculed by the rest of the pack for not conforming.

Yeah, I do know what you mean and I'm leaving this thread now because I hate these More Goth Than You threads as much as I hate the religous ones.