An Attempt to Uncover the Truth About September 11th, 2001

[Binkie]

Hold on, let's go with this question instead: Are you saying that the poll you've linked to is a Scientific Poll? Please let me know that you're so illiterate that you can't read the part right below the poll that says, "This is not a scientific poll." I'd be very interested in knowing that you really are incapable of reading.

As far as the CDC, you're the one who says they're wrong in the math and that you're not overweight like they say. I'll agree that it's all right as long as you agree (and finally admit) you're overweight. Deal? Otherwise you're saying they're wrong on you, but right on everyone else.

As for the CIA's report, well, you just plain old lied about that. You don't have a very good track record here, Sternn. You lie, can't read, and are a proven hypocrite.

[CptSternn]

Once again, you try and claim you know more than CNN, MSNBC, CDC, CIA, and the FBI.

I say why not try looking at the article rather than trying to claim you know more than your own government.

Guess we know why the miltary said you were too mental to join.

[Binkie]

Please answer this question:

Originally Posted by Binkie

Are you saying that the poll you've linked to is a Scientific Poll?

All it will take you are two or three letters.

[CptSternn]

Since your dodgin the question, here the original article, again, from 2 pages back...

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The percentage of Americans who blame the Bush administration for the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington has risen from almost a third to almost half over the past four years, a CNN poll released Monday found.

Asked whether they blame the Bush administration for the attacks, 45 percent said either a "great deal" or a "moderate amount," up from 32 percent in a June 2002 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll.

But the Clinton administration did not get off lightly either. The latest poll, conducted by Opinion Research Corporation for CNN, found that 41 percent of respondents blamed his administration a "great deal" or a "moderate amount" for the attacks. (Read the complete poll results -- PDF)

That's only slightly less than the 45 percent who blamed his administration in a poll carried out less than a week after the attacks.

Still, most Americans appear to be fatalistic, with more than half -- 57 percent -- saying they think that terrorists will "always find a way to launch attacks no matter what the U.S. government does."

The poll was carried out August 30 through September 2 by Opinion Research Corp. with 1,004 American adults questioned by telephone. The sampling error for the questions was 3 percentage points.

[knightmare]

You have some valid points Cpt. Stern. However, I would not relate the security of the United States to a poll conducted on such a small part of the population, who are probably civilians nonetheless. In fact, most Americans can not judge the security of the US accurately since they have no access to intelligence or emerging antiterrorist technology. Also, their viewpoints are probably shaped by our sensationalist media.

[Binkie]

I'll quote myself from two pages back as well:

Originally Posted by Binkie

http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/result...8.exclude.html

"This QuickVote is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those Internet users who have chosen to participate."

Oops... it's not a scientific poll (i.e. what I asked for). Try again, Sternn.

Then I'll quote myself from this page again:

Originally Posted by Binkie

Are you saying that the poll you've linked to is a Scientific Poll?

[CptSternn]

Thats NOT the CNN quick poll - that was a phone poll - but good job trying to switch those two.

If you look at the above article -

conducted by Opinion Research Corporation for CNN

It has NOTHING to do with that online poll on their website -that is a SCIENTIFIC polling company as stated on their website provided with the margin of error. So YES thats a scientifc poll. You are really so dense you didnt see that?

[Binkie]

I'm responding to your post here:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

You can google for 911 conspiracy cnn and see the results. CNN did a poll just last month, and now 84% of America now thinks there is a government cover-up and that the bush admin had something to do with it. Watch the clip.

So with 84% of the people polled saying there is a conspiracy, are 84% of americans now just crazy?

As that's the relevant poll which has to do with conspiracy theories and not laying blame on the government for failing to prevent the attacks.

If you've interpreted this: https://www.gothic.net/boards/showpo...&postcount=107
...to mean citizens think Bush was responsible for carrying out the attacks, you're an idiot.

Still, most Americans appear to be fatalistic, with more than half -- 57 percent -- saying they think that terrorists will "always find a way to launch attacks no matter what the U.S. government does."

According to your failed logic, that means terrorists will find a way to launch attacks no matter how many times the US government attacks it's own nation. The statement is about prevention, as is the poll and where to lay blame. We're three pages in and you've still failed to come up with anything.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Binkie

I'm responding to your post here:

As that's the relevant poll which has to do with conspiracy theories and not laying blame on the government for failing to prevent the attacks.

I have posted this three times now, and you ignore it every time. Just for you, from the above post (you can read it on this page twice already)...

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The percentage of Americans who blame the Bush administration for the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington has risen from almost a third to almost half over the past four years, a CNN poll released Monday found.

Asked whether they blame the Bush administration for the attacks, 45 percent said either a "great deal" or a "moderate amount," up from 32 percent in a June 2002 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll.

I guess your selective reading is missing that from the poll?

[roberteggleton]

I'm a therapist and a kid in my group session today told me about a movie she'd watched and about 9/11 conspiracy. She doesn't have a burner. Does anybody know what she was talking about and where to get it?

"Rarity from the Hollow" (my novel)

[CptSternn]

Loose Change - search the web for it. It was originally done low bueget by college kids - it recently got bought by a studio who released 'verison 2' which is more enhanced, with more information.

BRILLANT film - they use documents, simulators, and the testimony of well known experts to prove things that go far beyond what most have even touched on.

Much like An Innconveient Truth, they show that all the 'conspiracy theories' are not really that far off - there is much that is TRUE, has been COVERED UP, and officials refuse to talk about. Also the fact the engineers, architechs, explosive experts, and physasists from all over america from the most prestegious universities now agree that the twin towers could not have been brought down by burning jet fuel. They have interviews with the men who designed it, maintained it, along with pictures before and other evidence that is startling.

A must see - they are trying to get it into a major relase, but they are having 'issues' to say the least (go figure) with various neocons blocking their efforts.

Much like Gore points out in his film, they show that none of the 'theories' have been disproved - but the government has engaged in campaigns to smear the people who talk about it, skew the facts, and in many cases outright lie. They have no rebuttle, and for some reason actively engage in hiding the truth. One would think if this stuff was all made up crap why a government would go through such effort and expense to hide facts which should prove their storey, if it was true.

Yeah, LOOSE CHANGE - check it out.

[Electrolyte]

I can't remember what video I watched on Google Video about this since it was several months ago, but it does make me think (even though I don't live in the US). To be honest, I don't really know what to say. I'm that confused from the different articles, videos and websites that I haven't a clue what's going on.

[Budweiser69]

these videos changed my entire perspective on 9/11

give it a chance cause it really has a great point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4xAucZod6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX7_x...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks-yw...elated&search=

[TSW|Abaddon]

You guys do realize that Loose Change is utter nonsense right? Right?!?
I always found it interesting how someone can say "You've been lied to let me tell you the truth." What's to say that that person is telling the truth? A healthy bit of skepticism is needed. If anyone would like to discuss 9/11 conspiracies I would be more than welcome to engage in a healthy and polite debate.

[CptSternn]

Then you should. Ever post you have so far just says 'thats rubbish' and you have nothing to back up your statements. Not to mention, your a newbie who just got here.

And whats with the TSW before your name? You in a k3wl l33t hack3r group or something?

[TSW|Abaddon]

Well actually TSW is a gaming unit though I'm far from "l33t." Obviously Abaddon was already taken and I like to try to keep my names the same if not similar online, helps me to remember. That's not really relevant though, and I feel that atacking my name is pretty childish. Anyways yes I guess I have been pretty bolsterous with the "rubish" but so far you've just used ad hominem attacks and ignored valid information I had. Anyways....

About every claim in the film Loose Change, hell every claim about 9/11 conspiracies are wrong, with the exception of dates and names I suppose. If your so certain and want to prove it to all that it was a conspiracy then technically the burden of proof is on you. But I'll give something for you to work with.

There was no controlled demolition at the WTC site (Thermite???)
There was a plane at the Pentagon(Witnesses, lots of witnesses and plane debris)
Flight 93 did crash in Shanksville, PA ((90% plane recovered, bodies identified through DNA, black box recovered)
Pull it does not equal "Use explosives to collapse a building" (Ask anyone in the field of CD)
Northwoods also sets the precedent that the US does not use those kind of operations. (They never actually used it)

Really I could go on forever. Your the one that started the topic , I'm just replying to it. You need to convince me that it was a conspiracy orchestrated by the US. If you want we can go point by point, that would be the more efficent way rather than throwing every "fact" out a once.

[TSW|Abaddon]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Not to mention, your a newbie who just got here.

My apologies. I had no idea I had to sit around and build up posts while someone slanders my government.

[TSW|Abaddon]

Opps my bad. I said that you started the topic, which you obviously didn't. I was thinking about another thread, sorry.

[CptSternn]

I think the most telling of the incident is the families of the WTC victims are STILL suing the government for release of various documents and are STILL being stonewalled by bush and co. If the us government actually had nothing to do with it - then why are they shitting on the very people they claim to be helping in all their ads?

Guess we will have to wait until bush goes under the microscope in the coming months after the dems take over to get the truth.

And as far as it being all tripe as you claim, lets not forget Ruby Ridge, Waco, and a dozen other 'conspiracies' in the past decade which all turned out to be true.

[TSW|Abaddon]

Can you give proof to these "dozens of other conspiracies?" Even if your claim was true (which it isn't) past acts are not evidence of current ones. What families are "suing" Bush and what information is being withheld? I guess the 9/11 Commision Report, Various FEMA reports and NIST reports aren't enough. I've only heard of a few examples of family members who wanted more proof, that proof they ask for is already out there. For example TONS of people wanted nearby footage of the crash at the Pentagon. The government (despite not legally being able to do so) released some footage after a FOIA request was sent through. So tell me again who exactly wants proof and what proof do they want? Care to name names? Out of the family members that do want a better investigation I HIGHLY doubt any of them believe in a vast conspiracy. Hell I even believe the Bush Administration is lying about some details. We got caught with our pants down and I'm sure a lot of people want to cover up some of their screw ups. All of this however adds up to 0 when it comes to proving 9/11 was an inside job.

[CptSternn]

Well as far as the lawsuits...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/06.2...watchtower.htm

Hilton's suit charges Bush and his administration with allowing the September 11th attacks to take place so as to reap political benefits from the catastrophe. Hilton alleges that Osama bin Laden is being used as a scapegoat by an administration that ignored pressing warnings of the attack and refused to round up suspected terrorists beforehand. Hilton alleges the ultimate motivation behind these acts was achieved when the Taliban were replaced by American military forces with a regime friendly to America and its oil interests in the region.

Hilton's plaintiffs in this case are the families of 14 victims of 9/11, numbering 400 people nationwide. These are the same families that rallied in Washington recently to advocate for an independent investigation into the attacks. The current 9/11 hearings are being conducted by Congress behind closed doors, a situation these families find unacceptable.

Mr. Hilton, by filing his lawsuit, has joined the ranks of an ever-increasing body of Americans who subscribe to what they call the LIHOP Theory. LIHOP stands for Let It Happen On Purpose. The LIHOP Theory puts forward the accusation that Bush and his people allowed the September 11th attacks to take place, despite the fact that they had been repeatedly warned of an impending strike.

Families Sue U.S., Reject 9/11 'Bribe'

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1223-02.htm

WASHINGTON—For some, it's blood money, a repugnant payoff they feel they have no choice but to accept.

For a handful of others, the process of claiming compensation is too painful: they find themselves paralyzed by grief and unable to reopen emotional wounds barely healed from the deaths of their loved ones in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

But as many as 73 families see the process of U.S. government compensation as an attempt to protect those who should be held accountable for what they believe was mass murder.

*snip*

If you google it, you find find page after page of the current lawsuits.

As far as conspiracies, I named two right off, if your not familiar with either look here...

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge[url]

Ruby Ridge, where government agents attacked a man and killed his family without provocation - which was later proven in court and the government paid millions in damages. They made a few movies about this, so watch them if you haven't. For years while this was on the news and in court people called him a whack job and claimed his theories were all shite - until he proved in court he was correct.

Same with Waco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

etween 1993 and 1999, FBI spokesmen denied the use of any sort of pyrotechnic devices during the assault, even though Flite-Rite pyrotechnic grenades had been found in the rubble immediately following the fire. In 1999, FBI spokesmen were forced to admit that they had used Flite-Rite pyrotechnic grenades

And I could go on about things like Operation Northwoods.

Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a 1962 plan to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government of Fidel Castro as part of the U.S. government's Operation Mongoose anti-Castro initiative. The plan, which was not implemented, called for various false flag actions, including simulated or real state sponsored acts (such as hijacked planes) on U.S. and Cuban soil. The plan was proposed by senior U.S. Department of Defense leaders, including the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Lyman Louis Lemnitzer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Until 1997 the government denied it ever had those plans. Called everyone who claimed it was true a conspiracy theorist nut job - until the Clinton administration declassified them and they were all proven correct.

If you notice, those plans were similar to 9-11. The us government wanted to blow up us airliners, kill us citizens, and blame it on Cuba to get american people to support a war against Cuba. Sound familiar?

Or then we could look at MKULTRA - another CIA programme that they claimed didn't exist until the 1990's...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

The CIA experimenting with mind control - on college campuses, on students. People claimed the students were all just crazy, until the reports wre once again declassified and they were all proven correct.

Or we can look at the Tuskegee Syphilis Study if you need more proof that conspiracies turn out to be true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

This was the 'experiment' where people were infected by the us government with syphallis, and allowed to go untreated so the us government could monitor the deterioration up until death. US citziens used as guinea pigs, something once again called a silly conspiracy, until those involved started feeling guilty, many years later, and told the public the truth - that those people claiming this was a conspiracy were 100% correct.

Of course I could also point out that in the 1960's the us government used its own troops as guinea pigs...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in510079.shtml

They sprayed various groups of sailors with various toxis chemicals to see the effects. Once again, they denied doing it - once again the doctors involved, years later, confessed.

Of course one of my favourites is Operation Mockingbird - where as it was found the CIA had operatives in every major us media outlet planting storeys to keep people from discovering other conspiracies - they actively put in shite to make people think various reports were all in the minds of conspiracy theorists - that was until they were found out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

If you want more, I could go into detail on the secret rendition flights which bush JUST admmited to along with the secret CIA prisons they claimed for years didn't exist, but I think I have listed more than enough to satisify your question there.

[TSW|Abaddon]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

If you google it, you find find page after page of the current lawsuits.

How many lawsuits have gone through? Emotions still run high, however it isn't right to compare genuine mess-ups with criminal negligence. Don't think I'm not caring. As you can see in my profile I live in NJ. Not only do I know someone that died that day I have friends who lost loved ones as well. None, I repeat NONE of them want to file a lawsuit. How about you fly down here again and go ask some people if they want to file a lawsuit?

As far as conspiracies, I named two right off, if your not familiar with either look here...
Ruby Ridge, where government agents attacked a man and killed his family without provocation - which was later proven in court and the government paid millions in damages. They made a few movies about this, so watch them if you haven't. For years while this was on the news and in court people called him a whack job and claimed his theories were all shite - until he proved in court he was correct.

Without provocation? Clearly you don't know what happened. He was a white seperatist who blamed the jews for controlling the government. He began to stockpile weapons because he felt the end times were near. The guy was a nut. The only reason why he got off was because of technicalities on the Justice Dept's part. I wouldn't be siding with that guy if I were you. It's also humourous that the wikipedia article you linked to is in dispute. Good ol wikipedia, the ultimate source for truth!

Same with Waco.

Hell even in the article you link to it says that the government wasn't resposible for the fires. So your vast conspiracy turns into a man lying to cover his ass, not exactly unheard of. Do I need to go into details about the Waco cult? I wouldn't side with those guys either.

And I could go on about things like Operation Northwoods.

Until 1997 the government denied it ever had those plans. Called everyone who claimed it was true a conspiracy theorist nut job - until the Clinton administration declassified them and they were all proven correct.

If you notice, those plans were similar to 9-11. The us government wanted to blow up us airliners, kill us citizens, and blame it on Cuba to get american people to support a war against Cuba. Sound familiar?

Really? Show me where the goverment said that people were "true conspiracy nut jobs." You wouldn't be lying again would you. You also paraphrase and misquote Northwoods. if you actually read it it mentions "simulated attacks." Was 9/11 a simulated attack? Plus why the hell would they make the indentities of the hijackers Saudi and not Iraqi? Why didn't they plant WMD's in Iraq? For having this awsome plan they sure didn't carry it out very well. On top of that why release the information before 9/11? Not exactly the smartest thing to do if you plan on acting it out. The funny thing is though, they rejected the plan. Thanks for bringing up a fact that supports my claims. Your good at debunking youself.

Without going into detail yes some of those conspiracies are fucked up. I don't support them. However using them as evidence doesn't apply. First off these occured well before 9/11 so you can't use it as direct proof. Second, in court, past actions do not count as evidence towards current ones.

For every 1 example you can give about the government lying I can give 10 examples where they have told the truth. I can also give you PLENTY of examples of past terrorist attacks. Are you saying the goverment caused all of them? Otherwise its all the evidence you need to show how 19 fanatical muslims carried out a conspiracy. Your not going to get anywhere going off on tangents. You need to actually come up with evidence relating to 9/11 not 40 year old declasified documents about LSD "research." You most likely won't because there is none. 19 people not the government carried it out, get over it. You can still Bush bash without dragging him into a vast conspiracy.

[TSW|Abaddon]

Another important thing that I forgot to mention is that confirmation of the above "conspiracy theories" do not automatically validate ALL conspiracies. I figured this goes without saying but for the sake of debating I should elaborate. There are several conspiracies today that are completely unfounded and will remain unfounded. Such conspiracies are:

The JFK Assasination

HAARP weather/mind control

Chemtrial mind control

The Roswell Crash

Believe me there are plenty more out there. Even current ones like Bush cause Katrina through a CIA weather control project. So basically, among other reasons, you can't say that proof of other conspiracies is proof of a 9/11 conspiracy. So I guess try again? Lets also try to keep this on the topic of 9/11. Your not trying to sidestep are you?

[CptSternn]

How many lawsuits have gone through? Emotions still run high, however it isn't right to compare genuine mess-ups with criminal negligence. Don't think I'm not caring. As you can see in my profile I live in NJ. Not only do I know someone that died that day I have friends who lost loved ones as well. None, I repeat NONE of them want to file a lawsuit. How about you fly down here again and go ask some people if they want to file a lawsuit?

I just posted a few links that say the exact opposite. You are thather thick arent you? The families HAVE filed MULTIPLE lawsuits and its public record. Trying to argue they won't file lawsuits after multiple lawsuits ahve been filed is quite ignorant.

Without provocation? Clearly you don't know what happened. He was a white seperatist who blamed the jews for controlling the government. He began to stockpile weapons because he felt the end times were near. The guy was a nut. The only reason why he got off was because of technicalities on the Justice Dept's part. I wouldn't be siding with that guy if I were you.

Once again fact go against your comical asursions. He never went to prison - in fact, he was never charged in court. The government paid him MILLIONS. If he were guilty of some crime he would be in jail, not living off the millions he got from suing the american government. To claim he was a nut-job and the government was right is to once again go against the facts in the case. He is free, spending the governments millions as you sit here and try and argue he is a criminal and there was no conspiracy to imprison him.

Without going into detail yes some of those conspiracies are fucked up. I don't support them. However using them as evidence doesn't apply.

They were in response to last last asanine and uninformed post...

Can you give proof to these "dozens of other conspiracies?"

I post the proof of government cover ups and you dismiss them without even going into any detail. In fact, you claim and I quote 'using them as ecidence doesnt apply'? How so? If you prove in court on the stand a witness lied about an event, its called impeachment. Further testimonies is disregarded as they know the source lies. You claim the us government is trustworthy, and previous lies about major events shouldn't be used to judge them in similar situtations? How ignorant is that line of reasoning? Telling people to trust the government without question because yes, they lied in the past, but hey, they wouldnt do it again because YOU say so. Are you really that mentally challenged? You sound like the thick kinda bastard who loses three teeth in the morning before realising yer trying to eat a rock.

So basically, among other reasons, you can't say that proof of other conspiracies is proof of a 9/11 conspiracy. So I guess try again? Lets also try to keep this on the topic of 9/11. Your not trying to sidestep are you?

Once again, I reply to your 'Can you give proof to these "dozens of other conspiracies? and then you claim I'm side-stepping the topic. Your really feckin' dense aren't ye new person?

Proof of past crimes doesn't mean a person is guilty of current accusastions, but it IS a valid reason to question the people who have a track record for lying to the public in notorious cover-ups.

If your really interested in truth, as I said, wait until the dems take over in november and open up REAL investigations into all of this - we will then see who knew what.

[TSW|Abaddon]

I'm not feeding the lying troll anymore. You can piss-off and have a good day fu@ktard

Since your reading comprehention is non existent let me remind you that showing your terrorist supporting, lying face in this thread again is admittance that your a total douche who can't see past his own hatred.