State Laws/ Propositions

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Saya

Bigot:
1.one who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
2.one who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I used it correctly.

No in fact, you didn’t. My beliefs don’t make me intolerant. If you have read any of my previous posts, you would know that. Intolerance defined: not tolerating or respecting beliefs, opinions, usages, manners, etc., different from one's own, as in political or religious matters; bigoted.

Originally Posted by Saya

Yes, God would be the one to decide what is or isn't a sin. So, how do you know that he thinks homosexuals deserve to go to hell?

When did I say that I think they deserve to go to Hell? You are stereotyping me based on your perspective of Christianity.

Originally Posted by Saya

But like I said, you appear to borrow no beliefs from it at all, and Zen has few beliefs to choose from. You've told me a few but they differed greatly from the Zen version, like reincarnation or karma, which was more in line of a Wiccan view.

See post # 8 “Argue Religion Here

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

In addition to nirvana, I believe that all people have the potential to reach nirvana and what holds us back from that is ignorance.
Zen rejects the study of scriptures, this is not part of my belief. Scriptures of various kinds are there to teach, and I like to learn.
Zen rejects the idea of religious rites. This is circumstantial. If you consider the religious rite to be prayer or meditation, I concur. If it is eating wafers and drinking wine, or going to church because you HAVE to, being baptized, communion bar-mitzfah, etc. I reject that idea.
I do not believe in the Zen idea of rejecting devotional practices. Zen contradicts itself in this area as it's main purpose is meditation, which is a devotional practice when it comes to Zen.
I believe in the use of Koans (paradoxical puzzles or questions to overcome normal boundaries of logic).
I also practice Zazen (seated mediation, often combined with Christian prayer).
Also the belief in re-incarnation tends to be associated with this religion, which one can say contradicts the Christian belief of Heaven and Hell, but it is a perspective. I do believe God helps us achieve that nirvana through lifetimes of learning. Perhaps not all souls are re-incarnated immediately, but then are later, and some perhaps not at all. I think it is entirely individual to the soul and God's plan to teach that soul. And yes, I do believe He teaches us all, especially those that choose to deny Him. NT: Jesus would abandon 99 sheep for 1 that has strayed.

To answer your second question, my personal standpoint on homosexuality is this: God created man and woman. He created them to be a pair, and in that pair there is a balance and harmony (see Taoism). It is not up to me to decide what God says is sinful, but according to many religious teachings; it is. The consistency that I have seen in a variety of religions (Muslim, Judism, Christianity, Native Spirituality) consider it to be wrong and wrong in the same sense that incest is wrong. According to Jesus's teachings in the NT, "Judge not lest ye be judged," it is not for me, but I do not force my views on those who choose to live their lives the way they see fit. Neither do I tell them what they can and can't do. I do not look down on people who are homosexual, and I don't treat them differently than anyone else. I consider it a personal preference (based on conversations with gay friends), and it really is no different than choosing to drink Coke over Pepsi. My beliefs are mine alone, and they are personally practiced. Meaning again, I don't tell others what to believe or what is right or wrong.

So as you can see, I do have a degree of acceptance of homosexuality. On the topic of Prop 8 in California, I would not have cast a vote in favor of same-sex marriages based on my religious beliefs. My vote is my voice. There are plenty of other voices out there that could override mine.

See also post # 91 “Argue Religion Here”

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

Thanks for that. Moreover I haven't voted since 2000, so really I'm not a voter. So even my one vote, which is only one, is non-existent.

Originally Posted by Saya

And once again, if you haven't met Him yet, how do you know what He thinks?

I honestly feel like I’m talking to a brick wall.

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

Ahhh…now here you’re on to it. I do not know what it is yet. However, I can learn if I seek it out and He teaches me. NT: Knock and it shall be opened, Ask and ye shall receive. I’m not claiming I am right or that what I believe is ‘better’ or ‘worse’ than whatever anyone else thinks. I am simply stating what I believe. And as I told you before Saya, no matter how many times you want to throw some question about “this vs. homosexuality” at me, you’re not going to get a different answer. I believe what I believe. Take it or leave it. You believe what you want to. That’s fine by me.

Get it now?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

No in fact, you didn’t. My beliefs don’t make me intolerant. If you have read any of my previous posts, you would know that. Intolerance defined: not tolerating or respecting beliefs, opinions, usages, manners, etc., different from one's own, as in political or religious matters; bigoted.



When did I say that I think they deserve to go to Hell? You are stereotyping me based on your perspective of Christianity.



See post # 8 “Argue Religion Here


See also post # 91 “Argue Religion Here”





I honestly feel like I’m talking to a brick wall.



Get it now?

You are stubborn about clinging to your predjudice agaisnt homosexuality, thats where the bigot word is coming from.

If they don't go to hell, whats the punishment for their sin? If there's no punishment, then God doesn't even care enough to punish them.

Your beliefs on Zen I had already discussed, reincarnation (which is different from yours because you believe in a soul), karma (which you believe is what comes around goes around, whereas karma is cause and effect), and nirvana (which means blown out, freedom from bias, predjudice, beliefs, just pure undiluted reality and truth. You want to find God, which is a Hindu practice.)

You never gave me a straight answer. How do you know if God thinks homosexuality is a sin? If you don't know, how can you say that?

[JCC]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

Who exactly is doing that? I perhaps I missed a post by someone who is.

Do you sacrifice goats?

[viscus]

This just keeps going around in circles, doesn't it? And not a single cogent reason for disapproving of gays is ever mentioned.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by JCC

Do you sacrifice goats?

Uh...no. And if what you're getting at is that since the Bible says to sacrifice goats...you should do a little research about when God changed that in the OT.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Saya

You never gave me a straight answer. How do you know if God thinks homosexuality is a sin? If you don't know, how can you say that?

How do you know that He doesn't?

I will tell you one last time Saya, I've encountered people who argue like you do before. You're whole point...the reason you keep asking me the same question is because you either want to change my mind, which is bigoted, or you want to prove yourself right.
I'm not trying to "correct" you for what you believe...why can't you show me the same amount of courtesy?

[~~Auriel~~]

Deviant-
I'm going to move our discussion about my beliefs to the "General" Forum. I don't think it belongs in the politics section.
See you there!

[Saya]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

How do you know that He doesn't?

I will tell you one last time Saya, I've encountered people who argue like you do before. You're whole point...the reason you keep asking me the same question is because you either want to change my mind, which is bigoted, or you want to prove yourself right.
I'm not trying to "correct" you for what you believe...why can't you show me the same amount of courtesy?

I'm trying to get you to see your contradiction. If you're searching for "truth" and you know that you know nothing, you wouldn't be arrogant to say that God thinks homosexuality is a sin, when you haven't so much as talked to the guy.

[Albert Mond]

I'm God. I win this argument.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

I'm God. I win this argument.

~~~~Lol~~~~

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

I'm God. I win this argument.

XD I like the idea of God as a gay man!

He's probably quite sadistic too, or apathetic, and has a weird sense of humour.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Saya

I'm trying to get you to see your contradiction. If you're searching for "truth" and you know that you know nothing, you wouldn't be arrogant to say that God thinks homosexuality is a sin, when you haven't so much as talked to the guy.

Please enlighten me as to when you got the impression that I don't talk to God...who isn't a 'guy,' but an All-Knowing Being.

[Saya]

What did God say back to you?

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Saya

What did God say back to you?

I'm not getting into this. If I answer you, I'm crazy. If I don't you win..right?

[Saya]

Just tell me you had a vision and God told you he doesn't care much for homosexuality, and I'll leave it be.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Saya

Just tell me you had a vision and God told you he doesn't care much for homosexuality, and I'll leave it be.

I'm not fond of lying, but I'm sure He'll forgive me for this one: Yep I had a vision.

[Saya]

So no vision eh?

I don't know about you, but I'd get mad if I spoke to a person once or twice and then they went around saying stuff like "That Saya, she really doesn't care for homosexuality."

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Saya

So no vision eh?

I don't know about you, but I'd get mad if I spoke to a person once or twice and then they went around saying stuff like "That Saya, she really doesn't care for homosexuality."

That depends on whether or not you care what people think.

[Saya]

Well I'd rather not have the entire St.John's gay community fear me XD That would be a lot of explaining to do at the LGBT meetings. "Honestly, I don't know where he got that idea!"

EDIT: And according to the Bible God cares A LOT about what people think, "thou shalt not worship any other god but me, for I am a jealous God" XD

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Saya

Well I'd rather not have the entire St.John's gay community fear me XD That would be a lot of explaining to do at the LGBT meetings. "Honestly, I don't know where he got that idea!"

I don't participate in those events. Furthermore, I am one person out of many here in the States. I don't think I'm a giant threat- especially since I tend not to vote. Besides, people will think what they want to of you regardless of what you say or do to try to change their minds. I'm pretty sure that's true of our debate...is it not?

[Saya]

You cared enough to express your beliefs and even create an "argue religion here" thread, and you care enough about what we think to argue back and get mad with us. As my mother says, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen, likewise, if religious debate angers you so much, don't debate.

Our debate is futile and meaningless, but then, much of what everyone does is meaningless, isn't it? The entire forum is empty and meaningless, right? We are talking and arguing for the sake of talking and arguing. The best I can hope for is that everyone is at least thinking about what the other is saying. Myself I honestly will take a logical attack agaisnt my beliefs and say "hmm, they have a point." For example, JCC made a point agaisnt vegetarianism, so I was inspired to take up veganism. I didn't say "but thats what I believe so don't argue with me!" I saw his valid points and took it in consideration, and made adjustments.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Saya

You cared enough to express your beliefs and even create an "argue religion here" thread, and you care enough about what we think to argue back and get mad with us. As my mother says, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen, likewise, if religious debate angers you so much, don't debate.

Our debate is futile and meaningless, but then, much of what everyone does is meaningless, isn't it? The entire forum is empty and meaningless, right? We are talking and arguing for the sake of talking and arguing. The best I can hope for is that everyone is at least thinking about what the other is saying.

Now that's something I agree with.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Saya

You never gave me a straight answer. How do you know if God thinks homosexuality is a sin? If you don't know, how can you say that?

This is an important line of questioning, it will led her to examine her beliefs and make her think and hopefully research. When she does research the bible she will find that Jesus never said homosexuality is a sin, but he did say to "love one another as I have loved you". Since Jesus and The Father are one, then God has updated his view to humanity in the New Testament, that everyone is a child of God and everyone has the opportunity to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

How do you know that He doesn't?

Don't you dare give us that bullshit.
"God says that we should all worship the little teapot he buried in Mars or we'll have a worse fate than Hell. PROVE ME WRONG!!"

You have the burden of proof; don't you dare kill logic.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

I don't go to church. Largely because most "Christians" take it upon themselves not to practice daily, and don't make God a part of their daily lives.

And apparently you're one of them.