Magdelin Laundry

[AshleyO]

http://breakcorechoirboy.tumblr.com/...the-sound-of-a

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

Really? He's come out now and said Versus is whiteshaming and that its racist to tell him that white people don't understand what its like to be black.

I have said no such thing. I said it's racist (and supremacist) to say that people of one ethnic group CANNOT understand the experience of another, because you take it upon yourself to judge the mental faculties of another's mind based on nothing besides their race or ethnic background. Not only is this completely unprovable, it is totalitarian and stupid.

The more we talk to him about any kind of issue be it Occupy or religion or feminism, the more he reveals he's only concerned with issues in which he can blame other people rather than look at himself critically. We should be happy he cares about these women at all and shouldn't be upset he thinks his American sisters should shut up about Occupy being sexist.

Once again that was never my argument. You are reading ridiculous things into my posts because you want a boogeyman to fight and I happen to be a convenient target.

Which is weird, because he's said before the only reason he started caring about classism and changed his mind about capitalism was when he moved and found out how hard it is to struggle on your own. But unless he's secretly trans, he just can't have the same experience with womanness and there's nothing in the world that can make him black. He hates the idea that there's experiences that as a privileged person he can't have access to.

No. God you're bad at this. My argument is that despite biases and ethnic/cultural differences communication between humans is always possible.

You want some more straw for that man you're building?

Why does Versus have to teach him after several threads of trying to teach him?

Because Versus is the one making positive claims and demanding we accept them based upon his ethos as a PoC alone. That is not acceptable any way you slice it. Versus is the one who came in here and shit all over my thread despite the fact that he's admitted my use of the term fits the definition and does not offend him (though he pretended otherwise). Then he had the gall to make the demand that others simply submit and and perform an act of contrition due to his superior knowledge on the subject which he has gained through nothing other than the circumstances of his birth and the life that resulted from those circumstances.

You may be one for blind submission Saya, I am not, and what he demands is patently offensive, not to me as a white man, but to me as an empiricist.

It's one thing to point out that it's not his responsibility to educate others, it's quite another to come into someone else's discussion, wag an appendage at him, spout some cryptic bullshit and then blame him for not understanding, and then use that lack of understanding as further evidence of the target's poor character.

That's not discussion, that's douchebaggery disguised as discussion.

This is not the military and no one here is Versus's inferior. He can't just fall back on "you can't understand so accept everything I'm saying uncritically." If he wants to make a positive claim about anything he has to prove it, and it is his responsibility to make every effort to make his point crystal clear. It is not our responsibility to read his mind and divine his intentions or his arguments for him.

If he doesn't want to have a discussion about this, he shouldn't initiate one.

He's said several times now that he didn't mean that its not slavery and he's not the arbiter, initially all it was is side eying the guy who has a history of not caring about criticisms of whiteness, and of using racialized words like the n-word for shits and giggles or images of abused women to appropriate for his Occupy group, who now decides to emphasize that the church engages in slavery, with capital letters.

This is nothing but an assault on my character, and a stupid one at that.

Fuck you Saya.

And those of us who aren't black immediately jumped the gun and assumed he was saying white people can't say it.

He posted that "[Despanan] shouldn't be so comfortable saying it" if there's nohing wrong with saying it, why should I be uncomfortable?

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Alan

How many times has it be said that one can't do anything about privilege, just be aware that it's there?
Despanan has evolved incredibly in the last four years, and yet you give him more flak than numerous conservative and even racist members we have had.

You're right. People cannot suddenly be absolved from the structures in society despite how much their ideologies to enforce or challenge those structures change. Despanan has changed. I can see that. I think it's fair to say that everybody has changed from since I joined and further back. There are also persistent problems, and they are addressed.

you didn't try to teach him shit; hell, I don't even think you were that offended initially. Otherwise your response wouldn't have been a patronizing "slavery, huh?"

*
You're right, again. I did not try to teach him anything (in this thread), and I was not very offended initially. I suspect outrage was what people expected from me and so that's what they saw. I don't know why it is my responsibility to teach him and why that absence constitutes me giving him a harder time then anybody else (if I understand you correctly) or why my anger and benevolent wisdom are necessary for me to care about something or why it's so hard to believe that I actually don't just make this shit up.

I stand by my initial assessment: This thread is an idiotic post-colonial dick-waving contest ever since you took it upon yourself to be the arbiter on what constitutes slavery.

But I didn't take it upon myself to be the arbiter of what constitutes slavery. The Magdelin laundries are a modern manifestation of slavery, and I never argued against that, though you and a few others thought that is what I was trying to say. Neither did I ever draw a comparison between American slavery of blacks and the Magdelin laundries; the differences are obvious, nobody tried to compare the two, and it would be unnecessary to say that the former was generally many steps worse. This was never a question.

I responded because I see a problem. I did it in a very unconstructive way and still had difficulty communicating it. What's pissing me off now is that I have to articulate it so perfectly that it can breach the walls of colorblind racism to be accepted as a problem, rather then people just believing that I don't take this shit lightly and wouldn't say anything if I didn't have to.

[Versus]

I'll respond to that when I have time, Despanan. Assuming Saya doesn't already say it. No promises though.

[Despanan]

I responded because I see a problem. I did it in a very unconstructive way and still had difficulty communicating it. What's pissing me off now is that I have to articulate it so perfectly that it can breach the walls of colorblind racism to be accepted as a problem, rather then people just believing that I don't take this shit lightly and wouldn't say anything if I didn't have to.

Would it be acceptable for me to come in and start shit with Saya over a religious post, but not explain myself and then get angry when people didn't just take my word for it?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

I have said no such thing. I said it's racist (and supremacist) to say that people of one ethnic group CANNOT understand the experience of another, because you take it upon yourself to judge the mental faculties of another's mind based on nothing besides their race or ethnic background. Not only is this completely unprovable, it is totalitarian and stupid.

Its not one ethnic group against another, specifically its white people cannot understand the experience of PoC. PoC amongst themselves may deal with discrimination and debate and not being able to understand each other, but ultimately they understand what it means to be a PoC in a white supremist society. We white people however are raised to be ignorant and oblivious and segregated. While PoC intermingle very well, white people live in white neighbourhoods, want white schools, white marriages, and white jobs. But we don't call it that, its so subtly ingrained in our minds we don't see it. Its very obvious to many PoC, however. Its like having something stuck on your face in public, you don't realize its there until someone lets you know or holds up a mirror for you. An eye can't see itself as it is, it needs a reflection.

Intellectually, we can grasp the ideas, but we are raised from birth to be oblivious and we might not ever be able to fully deconstruct that, especially in a society that reinforces we should ignore it. This works for all kinds of privileges that are not easily shared, in the whole elevatorgate thing, Kontan and Versus got that hey, you should respect a person's wish not to be propositioned, but it wasn't until Solumina chimed in that anyone pointed out that elevators are scary places for women. Its an experience that lasts from the cradle to the grave and its hard to articulate, hard to express, and hard to wrap up in a neat package so those who never had to worry about sexual assault can understand. We had to pour our hearts out about our experiences of living in fear of rrape and it still wasn't good enough. In the end it was like we shouldn't have shared it at all, it didn't matter and we were left emotionally drained after trying to. And its not just in that thread, I'm tired of going to schools and dorms and groups and talking about sexual assault and have men roll their eyes at me, or make rrape jokes. Every year at Take Back The Night we mark an X on the Supreme Court building for every gendered violence victim we know, and every year I have more X's to add, and I'm tired and tired of being angry.

This is why I can't expect to know what its like to be a PoC. There's a lot I won't talk to men about because its personal information I can't trust them with. Its getting hard to talk about abstracts and hypotheticals. What if its the same for them? I can't count all the cismen who have ever dismissed me or talked over me or demanded I educate them only to abuse what I've told them, how do I know I'm not one white person in a long line of white people to ask a PoC to educate me?

Intellectually, we can know how the mechanisms of how white supremacy works, but we can't know the totality of the experience of living under white supremacy. Did you watch the Color Of Fear, the movie Alan posted a while ago? Where the white guy was telling the men of colour that they were hysterical and wrong and silly for thinking white men with guns in their trucks might lynch them? Objectively, empirically, no, the white men probably won't lynch them, but does that mean they don't have the right to be suspicious or fearful?

[Alan]

You're in a bachelor's, right?
Cause it has been increasingly obvious that you speak like a college liberal arts student that MUST let the world know all the things you're learning.
I remember being like that two years ago. And I was a dumbass.

[Solumina]

Okay so explain what is so dumb about that post instead of just saying that it's dumb, cuz calling things dumb is so not helpful.

[Alan]

Neither was saying they were playing racism bingo with a guy that thinks things through more than half the people in this forum.

[Solumina]

Did I ever say Racism Bingo was helpful? Pretty sure I didn't, although it actually does have some small worth as it pretty clearly spell out some of the common pitfalls in gnet discussions of the topic so people can be aware of them and avoid them, yet they don't. You're comment about Saya's post doesn't have any value here. Emotions are already high and you essentially said I used to be a dumbass like you but now I'm so much better but you have don't nothing to demonstrate that or made an attempt to help her, or the rest of us, understand where she is in error.

[Alan]

Versus's comment had no value to the thread either and he completely derailed it.
Your opinions are hypocritical.


Should I correct you every time all of you motherfuckers get something wrong? Which is like three out of every five times you try to sound smart?

No; because at least you're trying to learn. So it's a real dumbass move that Saya always wants to have something to add out of her small and sophomoric boy of knowledge she's barely in the process of polishing into a consistent ideology. I could write a whole essay on how her perspective on Butler is wrong, but that would be a dick move that doesn't help anyone.


Just like all the bitching in this thread

[AshleyO]

Oh fuck ME! I'm a theater major! I'm well on my way to being a fucking obnoxious douche nozzle!

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Alan

You're in a bachelor's, right?
Cause it has been increasingly obvious that you speak like a college liberal arts student that MUST let the world know all the things you're learning.
I remember being like that two years ago. And I was a dumbass.

You know I'm a religious studies major though, right? I'm not studying this stuff in school.

Should I correct you every time all of you motherfuckers get something wrong? Which is like three out of every five times you try to sound smart?

You know every time you're a shitty feminist or queer ally I usually don't say anything because I think you genuinely try. The difference is I don't get that impression at all from Despanan.

[Jonathan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4-spBDcJyk

[AshleyO]

Because fuck Despanan.

[Alan]

Then you don't know Despanan enough, nor have you given him a chance in like six months.
He was a dick about giving PoC and women a place in OWS, but I, who haven't been butthurt ever since have seen his big change ever since.
It's not even a good change, and it's not a good change because it's a change in the direction you're pushing him. He walks with his tail between his legs when it comes to you two. That's bullshit. The very fact that you can push him this much is due to the fact that he allows himself instead of dipshits like Jonathan who won't listen (and thus need this shit the most) and you just give up.
You ain't making anyone better. You're looking for weakness and attack misguided compromise. You're literally bullies.

[Saya]

I didn't realize going off his head means he has his tail between his legs. When has he ever compromised on anything? Even with the OWS shit even if we felt we talked it out, he's come back with a twist on the same bullshit and regress right back to not giving a shit. I've started out patient, but I've sadly run out of fucks to give.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Alan

Versus's comment had no value to the thread either and he completely derailed it.
Your opinions are hypocritical.

V did that for emotional reasons, I saw no need to get involved. His initial reaction and pretty much everything he posted here aren't really helpful but it seemed pretty obvious to me that what started as just a snide remark based off of past experiences quickly escalated with lots of frustration and then anger, it isn't my place to reign in his emotions nor would I want it to be. I don't see how that makes me hypocritical. Now if I had voiced support or encouraged what he was doing then you could call me a hypocrite, but I didn't.

Originally Posted by Alan

Should I correct you every time all of you motherfuckers get something wrong? Which is like three out of every five times you try to sound smart?

No, just if you feel the need to call someone out on it. I don't think that is asking much at all especially since you seem pretty comfortable viewing yourself as intellectually superior to the rest of gnet.

Originally Posted by Alan

No; because at least you're trying to learn.

I'm the first to say that conversations are more helpful than fights and I make a habit of doing everything I can to keep emotions from getting in the way but not everything is excusable just because and effort is being made.

Originally Posted by Alan

So it's a real dumbass move that Saya always wants to have something to add out of her small and sophomoric boy of knowledge she's barely in the process of polishing into a consistent ideology.

When would you consider someone's body of knowledge to be acceptable as a basis for someone to contribute to a serious discussion? I'm not being snide I'm honestly curious. People are never done adding to that body of knowledge, it isn't something that you complete. Sure there are some milestones along the way like attaining a degree but that isn't really a good basis for measurement as there is so much else that needs to be considered. Someone who actively works in a field would have different knowledge than someone pursuing a degree and that knowledge should not be discounted just because it isn't officially recognized.

Originally Posted by Alan

I could write a whole essay on how her perspective on Butler is wrong, but that would be a dick move that doesn't help anyone.

Why would that be a dick move? If someone told me that my perspective on humanist theory is wrong I would want to know what they thought was wrong with my perspective, I would want them to be detailed and specific, and I would find it all very helpful as I do pretty much anything that increases my understanding of anything.

[AshleyO]

I just had a really nice stale Black and Mild.

[Jonathan]

Hey Alan, not agreeing is not the same thing as not listening. By the way, still wondering why you pretend I wrote things I didn't write.

[Solumina]

Ewwwww Black and Milds always make me think of this one redneck who went to my high school, his truck wreaked of them. One time he gave me a ride to my car (our school had a parking lot right there and then some of the neighboring businesses let students use their side lot as overflow parking), it look less than five minutes but that smell soaked into my skin, clothes, and hair. I swear I could still smell it in my hair after I showered.

[Alan]

You argue like Fox News. Racist people don't say they're racist. It's the ground in which their opinions stand on and the framework by which they work taht lets us know where they're coming from.
I ain't taking your half-assed postmodernist defense seriously because I'm not a thirteen year-old.

[Jonathan]

If that racist allegation was tossed at me, I'm going to have to ask what the wild blue fuck are you referring to? Last check I wasn't the guy posting $ethnicgroup People Are Hilarious threads.

[Versus]

Okay. I'm chill now. Despanan, really quick, which do you want to talk about first: My initial issue or the problems that we have with your approach? It's kind of easy to get thrown off course to try to tackle everything on a point by point basis and I think it slows us down from getting anywhere.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

If that racist allegation was tossed at me, I'm going to have to ask what the wild blue fuck are you referring to? Last check I wasn't the guy posting $ethnicgroup People Are Hilarious threads.

Perfect proof that you don't get racism and you're even such a pussy that you can't even call the thread its actual name because you think being bullshit politically correct means being nonracist.
This also doubles as proof of how white people use political correctness as a way to whitewash their racism instead of actually minding how POC sees language and power.

Versus, take notes. This is the difference between Despanan and dipshits like Jonathan.