Him - Page 2

Underwater Ophelia · 09-08-2007, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

That it's being taken so seriously, that the fans are so die hard. There are so many goth bands I make fun of for their cheesy/melodramatic/nonsensical lyrics - the Mission, Nosferatu, Inkubus Sukkubus, 45 Grave, Peter Murphy, etc. All of these acts, including HIM, have their merits, but having deep or insightful lyrics is not one of them.

Inkubus Sukkubus...? How are they cheesy? Their lyrics aren't cheesy, but the music is pretty shit. It's the same song over and over again.

And yeah, people take melodramatic goth shit pretty seriously too.

"I found myself alone, alone.
Alone above a raging sea,
that stole the only girl I loved
and drowned her deep inside of me"

If that's not melodramatic, I don't know what is.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-08-2007, 11:01 AM

Okay--never said they were Goth, besides, I am not one of those stuck up, pseudo-elitist who thinks you have to listen to every dark band out there to have your official Goth membership privileges -- and despite some admittedly cheesy lyrics--I do enjoy the lyrics of some of his songs--it's like any writer or musician--they will alternately make great works of art and other times clunkers--the same directors ( Martin Scorsces and Spielberg come to mind) , musicians ( Beatles come to mind) or whatever, they can come up with some cornball shit that doesn't make sense too--doesn't take away from their genius.

For instance, The Beatle started out with Lyrics Like I WANNA HOLD YOUR HAND and later created albums that actually REVOLUTIONIZED MUSIC--did you know that they were the first to use distortion in albums by PHYSICALLY pushing on a reel to reel as it spun to achieve it...? I mean, I am not a big fan of their tunes, but I am a fan of what they accomplished...

Consider HIM"s LYRICS to CIRCLE OF FEAR:

If you want to save her
then first you have to save yourself
If you want to free her from the hurt
Don't do it with your pain
If you want to see her smile again
don't show her your afraid
Cause your circle for fear is the same...

Not exactly Edgar Allen Poe, but apprecably, in my humble O , well put. Besides, does every message have to be dripping with pathos for the messgae itself to be appreciated. That is probbaly the stupidiest, snobbiest most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!

That is like saying a person yellinging FIRE should be ignored rather than a person who says. "Do pardon me divinity, but beleive thy living establsihment burneth to black ash..."

To me FIRE puts it quite well and doesn't put on pretentious airs...

COME ON...

Sure he sings about graves and love, but WINGS wasn't about that--it was an ode to Norse mythology where human spirits were said to be given butterfly wings in death ( Sorta like the Grecian psyche--makes sense)...

I think that is kewl and sweet and you can kiss my ass if you don't like it.

I think there is a message in some of his music and a sincerity, I just think Ville is still evolving as an artist--even the best bands had a period in time where they struggled to really define their sound and what they wanted to say...

It doesn't invalidate his work...

Vyvian Blackthorne · 09-08-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

That it's being taken so seriously, that the fans are so die hard. There are so many goth bands I make fun of for their cheesy/melodramatic/nonsensical lyrics - the Mission, Nosferatu, Inkubus Sukkubus, 45 Grave, Peter Murphy, etc. All of these acts, including HIM, have their merits, but having deep or insightful lyrics is not one of them.

Good goth...Well, while I am a fan of I/S (very nice work), the other part of the bands are meant to be funny. Look at 45 Grave and Alien Sex Fiend, the humour is so toungue-in-cheek that it's better to laugh with the bands then laugh at them. And Hey, Peter Murphy is not that cheesy. Ugh.

As for the melodrama, goth music has more of a raw dark art feeling toward it. HIM becoming compared to, let's say, SexGang Children, have their own nautral aesthetics. HIMs' is "alternative" (don't get me started) and SGC's is naturally goth rock.

While HIM have never claimed it, the corperations supporting the band put that on them, and they do, at the same time, nothing to help that. Because the art value is dying as the years pass and the success eases in.

Rae and Thorn, I like you guys both. Alot, and have nothing wrong with someone liking HIM. So don't take that the wrong way.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

LadyLucretia · 09-08-2007, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

Besides, does every message have to be dripping with pathos for the messgae itself to be appreciated. That is probbaly the stupidiest, snobbiest most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!

I think that is kewl and sweet and you can kiss my ass if you don't like it.

I'm assuming your responding to someone other than me, because I seem to remember saying All of these acts, including HIM, have their merits.

Romantic Raven · 09-08-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

That is like saying a person yellinging FIRE should be ignored rather than a person who says. "Do pardon me divinity, but beleive thy living establsihment burneth to black ash..."

Haha, that was so cool... And you're right. Their lyrics aren't what you'd call subtle or overly intelligent, and after listening to a few songs they do tend to get repetitive, but hey, to each his/her own. As long as you like them, that's all that matters. I'm not a huge fan, but I'm not ashamed to admit that I listen to them every once in a while.

LadyLucretia · 09-08-2007, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Inkubus Sukkubus...? How are they cheesy? Their lyrics aren't cheesy, but the music is pretty shit. It's the same song over and over again.

And yeah, people take melodramatic goth shit pretty seriously too.

"I found myself alone, alone.
Alone above a raging sea,
that stole the only girl I loved
and drowned her deep inside of me"

If that's not melodramatic, I don't know what is.

I guess I find the whole "PAGAN PAGAN PAGAN ANTI-XTIAN PAGAN PAGAN" lyrical style to be cheesy, but that may just be personal taste.

I don't know anyone who seriously sits around listening to the Cure and crying over how deep the lyrics are (past the age of 16 anyway). I don't take most of the music I listen to seriously, my problem is with people who do. It's embarrassing to hear someone profess how deep and meaningful something like the above lyrics is. Same goes for HIM. I have no problem with HIM, any more than I have a problem with the Cure. I just have a problem with fans who take things too seriously and get defensive about their favorite bands at the drop of a hat.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-08-2007, 11:17 AM

Thank you--at least SOMEONE will allow me the benefit of appreciating the music ON ANY LEVEL in which I choose to do so without slurs in my ability to discern good from bad simply because they disagree...

I mean if I want to take them seriously who FUCKING cares and what is it to you--just because YOU don't like music or their message or NON message as it were, doesn't mean I can't look and find the poetry in their work and think it has MEANING...maybe something he wrote speaks PERSONALLY to me and the people who like them, which is fine, I mean, it's not like I am in here defending the poerty of fucking Britney Spears or some shit!!!!!! I mean, the man has actually said some things, which you would know if you could get past his more mainstream tripe, which I admittedly don't like myself...

And Maybe, just maybe, it is the elitist minded, everything has to be Hawthorne crowd, who can't appreciate something for it's simplicity...perhaps it is I has the eye and you spitters and haters who are glowering simply because they lyrics don't' meet YOUR perceived ideas of what is good and bad, something that is relative to all human based on our experiences...

And again--never said they were Goth....

Godslayer Jillian · 09-08-2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

Besides, does every message have to be dripping with pathos for the messgae itself to be appreciated. That is probbaly the stupidiest, snobbiest most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!

That is like saying a person yellinging FIRE should be ignored rather than a person who says. "Do pardon me divinity, but beleive thy living establsihment burneth to black ash..."

What I find ironic is that I see HIM as being the one saying the latter.
All their songs have this mold:
"There's love, there's sadness, and there's death, and I'm singing about it"
From that, they elaborate with as many permutations as the can possibly come up with.
Therefore, while ASF would be yelling "there's a fucking fire!" and Peter Murphy would be saying "Oh no! The building is incinerating!", Ville tries to come up with twelve ways to talk about the fire (e.g. "The Flames that Consume Us", "Death Approaches", "Flaming Like in Passion", or some cal of sorts) that really aren't at all necessary and isn't really telling us to run, because, after all, there's a fucking fire.

Underwater Ophelia · 09-08-2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

I guess I find the whole "PAGAN PAGAN PAGAN ANTI-XTIAN PAGAN PAGAN" lyrical style to be cheesy, but that may just be personal taste.

I don't get what's cheesy about that. You might find it annoying, or repetitive, but cheesy? You'll have to explain that.

Vyvian Blackthorne · 09-08-2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

I guess I find the whole "PAGAN PAGAN PAGAN ANTI-XTIAN PAGAN PAGAN" lyrical style to be cheesy, but that may just be personal taste.

Guess what. I am a pagan, and a small but valued number of people on this site are. While it may be your taste (which, in that sense completely shuts off the Virgin Prunes) the rest of us are rather pleased a few bands combine the elements of paganism and our scene toward music. *sigh*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luc

I don't know anyone who seriously sits around listening to the Cure and crying over how deep the lyrics are (past the age of 16 anyway).

That was an utter generalization. And a lot of their early work is deep. Your arrogance wrote that post more than your fingers and much less brain, if you ask me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luc

I don't take most of the music I listen to seriously, my problem is with people who do.

Good for you then

and it's not taking "music seriously" but identitfying witht the themes and passion expressed through the music. Rozz Williams anyone?

And it's only embarressing to you. And that's fine, taking music seriously is a totally different story. But this is, if anything, the appropriate place to do so.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

Rae Ven Rae · 09-08-2007, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

I guess I find the whole "PAGAN PAGAN PAGAN ANTI-XTIAN PAGAN PAGAN" lyrical style to be cheesy, but that may just be personal taste.

I don't know anyone who seriously sits around listening to the Cure and crying over how deep the lyrics are (past the age of 16 anyway). I don't take most of the music I listen to seriously, my problem is with people who do. It's embarrassing to hear someone profess how deep and meaningful something like the above lyrics is. Same goes for HIM. I have no problem with HIM, any more than I have a problem with the Cure. I just have a problem with fans who take things too seriously and get defensive about their favorite bands at the drop of a hat.

I am a fucking musician--I WRITE lyrics--OF COURSE I identify with lyrics--DUH...

I understand where the words come from and how it feels to place them on paper and what it is like to have someone who doesn't understand what that process is like trash them.

It is like a person who loves to scuba dive who has an affinity for the water--they may gush about reefs and coral drop and my eyes glaze over--But I would never make them feel bad about their passions--it is what they do.

I mean how much if a bitch would I have to be to say "Damn it is so stupid to like he water like that, normal people with brains like the land--I don't see why you get into that stuff it is so stupid..."

who am I to define what is precious to someone, what they are passionate about, and what they should or should not take offense to...

Music is what I do, it is my life and my passion, and I am more than highly insulted that you or anyone else woud step all over that and claim I am being overly defensive...

How would you feel if I did that to something you had a great abiding passion for that I personally did into understand??????.

Bete Noire · 09-08-2007, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

And again--never said THEY weRE GOTH....

It's a conspiracyyyyy....

But seriously [ish] I dont think there's anything wrong with listening to whatever music you want. And the MAJORITY of the posts here just seem to be stating personal opinion, rather than having a go because of your musical taste. I dont think anyone here is going to say you're les goth because you listen to a "pseudo-goth" type band.

Alsooo...
I think a lot of goths poke fun at bands they listen to, being able to acknowledge somethings faults doesn't detract from enjoyment. For me anyway.

zeronegativeplus · 09-08-2007, 11:33 AM

I'm not a baby bat.
Why do you say that because I recently joined this forum?
I like him but that doesnt mean I dont know about goth.

Underwater Ophelia · 09-08-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

It's embarrassing to hear someone profess how deep and meaningful something like the above lyrics is.

It'd think it'd be more embarrassing for you because they were creative and intelligent enough to find a meaning in it and you weren't.

If someone can find meaning in something you can't, instead of just being a jealous bitch and saying they're the one who is wrong for finding it, why can't you just appreciate it and celebrate how someone can find meaning in it?

It's like the cape thing. Instead of just wishing you had the balls to wear what you like irregardless of ANYONE, including people "in the scene," and being an asshole to people who can do that, why not just use it as an opportunity to better yourself?

Rae Ven Rae · 09-08-2007, 11:36 AM

I dunno--it gripes my hide when someone says I shouldn't be into something I like thinking lyrics are deep. I can sit and cry buckets of TEARS over WINGS OF THE BUTTERFLY if I want to--why does that make me brain dead--CAUSE YOU WOULDN'T?? So WHAT! Does that make you better than me? A better judge of music than me??? The holy fucking Saint and Patron of all that is valued and good??? You can say you don't get it, call Ville a schmoo and an ass, hate HIM, but don't tell me I don't have the RIGHT to be that way...who are they???

People can agree to disagree without personal attacks, and saying I am stupid or have bad tastes just because you don't like something is personal to me...

Rae Ven Rae · 09-08-2007, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

It'd think it'd be more embarrassing for you because they were creative and intelligent enough to find a meaning in it and you weren't.

If someone can find meaning in something you can't, instead of just being a jealous bitch and saying they're the one who is wrong for finding it, why can't you just appreciate it and celebrate how someone can find meaning in it?

It's like the cape thing. Instead of just wishing you had the balls to wear what you like irregardless of ANYONE, including people "in the scene," and being an asshole to people who can do that, why not just use it as an opportunity to better yourself?

Thank you Ophelia-- well said...

zeronegativeplus · 09-08-2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draconysius

True, only baby bats can.

Baby bat, ha ha ha!

Godslayer Jillian · 09-08-2007, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

People can agree to disagree without personal attacks, and saying I am stupid or have bad tastes just because you don't like something is personal to me...

I don't see anyone calling you stupid. I might just be wrong, so point me in the right direction.

LadyLucretia · 09-08-2007, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

It'd think it'd be more embarrassing for you because they were creative and intelligent enough to find a meaning in it and you weren't.

If someone can find meaning in something you can't, instead of just being a jealous bitch and saying they're the one who is wrong for finding it, why can't you just appreciate it and celebrate how someone can find meaning in it?

It's like the cape thing. Instead of just wishing you had the balls to wear what you like irregardless of ANYONE, including people "in the scene," and being an asshole to people who can do that, why not just use it as an opportunity to better yourself?

Ah yes, ye olde "you must do all things out of personal insecurity" argument. Sorry, not true.

Underwater Ophelia · 09-08-2007, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

Ah yes, ye olde "you must do all things out of personal insecurity" argument. Sorry, not true.

Ok, then what is true? If not personal insecurity, what makes you think that things that you don't like are "bad?"

KontanKarite · 09-08-2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

That is like saying a person yellinging FIRE should be ignored rather than a person who says. "Do pardon me divinity, but beleive thy living establsihment burneth to black ash..."

To me FIRE puts it quite well and doesn't put on pretentious airs...

Oh man, if only I could speak like that in real life. That's awesome.

LadyLucretia · 09-08-2007, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Ok, then what is true? If not personal insecurity, what makes you think that things that you don't like are "bad?"

I have yet to state an opinion about any bands on this thread being good or bad. Lyrical content, yes. Bands, no.

LadyLucretia · 09-08-2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

[color=DarkOrchid]

Guess what. I am a pagan, and a small but valued number of people on this site are. While it may be your taste (which, in that sense completely shuts off the Virgin Prunes) the rest of us are rather pleased a few bands combine the elements of paganism and our scene toward music. *sigh*

I enjoy a lot of music, including the Virgin Prunes, that includes pagan themes. But a lot of Inkubus Sukkubus lyrics seem to be very agenda-driven, which always bugs me regardless of the agenda. And some of the lyrics, like "your heart burns for love/My soul burns for blood...I'll be your dark angel" are a bit hard for me to take seriously. That said, I have enjoyed listening to them in general provided that I pay less attention to the lyrics

.

Underwater Ophelia · 09-08-2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

I have yet to state an opinion about any bands on this thread being good or bad. Lyrical content, yes. Bands, no.

You still haven't answered my question.

With HIM as with capes, why do you think you're some authority on these subjects, and why do you think it's ok for you to almost instruct people in these subjects?

LadyLucretia · 09-08-2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

You still haven't answered my question.

With HIM as with capes, why do you think you're some authority on these subjects, and why do you think it's ok for you to almost instruct people in these subjects?

For the same reason you feel entitled to object to it.