Canada & US Oppose Palestinian Statehood

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Is it Fox?

Edit: As for "Trollery", honestly, I'm not trolling you. (No more than usual anyway). I really think Canada is in the wrong here, even moreso than the US and GB and I think you do the entire process a great disservice not including Canada with the "miniature American flags" line. (Simpson's reference non-withstanding).

I don't know WHAT AshleyO is doing (She's probably Trolling). As to her being Kontan...Well I'll just let Kontan decide how he wants to play that one.

Its the same channel that was labeled "Fox News North" that I had posted about previously.

I don't think you can argue that the US is trying to do the absolute right thing and is just confused. Technically, Palestine doesn't need this vote. The UN voted on this before in 1988, and Palestine won, but nobody is willing to hold Israel accountable and enforce that vote. The West Bank and Gaza were originally Jordanian, and Israel has been occupying it since 1967, but Jordan has given up all claims to the land to the Palestinians. Israel and the US were the only "nay" votes, Canada remained neutral, but later Clinton worked with Arafat and Rabin to smooth the process of Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and the establishment of a Palestinian state. Its not something that the US has always opposed, and again, they originally opposed the creation of Israel to begin with. The peace talks got fucked up after Rabin was assassinated, violence erupted, and Arafat would not compromise on wanting the right for Palestinians to return to Israel, which Rabin's successor, Barak, was not willing to give. Clinton resented Arafat after that, and blamed him for the collapse of peace talks.

Fuck, even Bush's failed "roadmap to peace" would have worked towards two separate states, even he wasn't such an ass about this and wasn't afraid to defy Sharon in supporting the Geneva Accord in 2003. Sharon actually did later announce in 2005 that he had become more of a centrist and was willing to pull out of the West Bank again.

The big reason perhaps is that we don't want to look like we're supporting to Hamas, both countries list Hamas as a terrorist organization. To support Palestinian democracy is to support a terrorist organization. However, this wouldn't be new to the US, after it had supported Yassir Arafat, who was a terrorist, and even had him over for tea and cookies.

My point was that the spread of democracy and freedom is a bullshit ideal that both Canada and the US are willing to give up on if it means giving democracy and power to people they don't like. Canada generally has always been lukewarm, neutral or indifferent, but America used Israel against Soviet backed Arab states, but still almost redeemed itself by fighting hard for a Palestinian state, and is now going back on its word. It doesn't matter that internationally, Palestine is recognized as an occupied state and not Israeli territory, or that we've had this argument before and it is supposed to be settled. In their desperation Palestine has turned to terrorism and Hamas. We're willing to take away democracy if we don't like the results. I'm sorry if my Simpsons reference offended your sensibilities, but like I said, the motives clash with supposed morals we are supposed to have, and we're letting a small country starve and become more desperate, which will no doubt lead them to turn to more and more desperate measures. They've been waiting 23 years.

Anyway, Harper is no innocent puppet. And I didn't elect him, again he only got 40% of the popular vote. And Wikileaks says American politicians recognized him as a jail yard bitch and decided to use them to further their interests in Canada.

[AshleyO]

Ah hell. How about I just admit what everyone else is thinking. Let's declare war on america. Being that you know, they're clearly evil... ALL THE TIME.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Ah hell. How about I just admit what everyone else is thinking. Let's declare war on america. Being that you know, they're clearly evil... ALL THE TIME.

No one has to declare war on America, as they are going to declare war on themselves.

Have ye been following what is happening in Greece? That is coming to America real soon. There has already been a tipping point in the class war which has been waged for decades. The day of reckoning is coming soon.

For every one American who is hired in America, American companies hire three overseas, on average. That means three of every four dollars the government gives to stimulate the budget goes to other countries, even when they give it to American companies directly.

American companies are now all multi-national. As Sanders pointed out in that nice speech a couple weeks ago, every major US company has off shore holdings in the Cayman Islands, meaning they are able to pay no taxes and in many cases actually get paid by the government thanks to tax credits. This is unsustainable.

It has reached critical mass and the current budget fiasco is nothing compared to what is coming in the next few years.

First off, there will be no more jobs. All major companies are hiring overseas. They are moving jobs overseas faster than America is creating them. This combined with the fact they are creating them there as well on the 3-1 ratio means the job market in America will get worse, even with a job stimulus package.

Second, the defence budget increased again this year, while education was cut immensely. This same practice is happening across America on a state level as well.

Finally, they are going to make huge cuts to social security and Medicare/Medicaid. This is going to have a dramatic, drastic effect on the lives of the working class across America who depend on these services.

Add it all up and you have a time bomb waiting to go off. It will make Greece pale in comparison, mainly because in the US there are a large number of guns on the streets and I am willing to bet when it kicks off it's going to be nasty.

On the current path, which neither party is seemingly willing to deviate from the country is destine for civil war. The country will go broke, but not before it totally isolates the working class in efforts to give more money to the mega-rich which are already there calling all the shots. This is what has happened in countless other countries before their collapse, and will be no different when it happens in America.

That day is soon approaching and will be here in our lifetime.

[Ben Lahnger]

Enough thread-jacking out of you, mister. This isn't that far off the point about Canada and the U.S. opposing statehood for Palestine, and it would probably be tolerable, if it weren't for the fact that every other post from you is about this "America sucks and will get what's coming to it" shit.

Take a chill pill, "Sir Broken Record".

[Saya]

Yeah, I hope no one takes this as a "I hate America" thing, I really don't. I obviously dislike both Canadian and American governments and I think the foreign policy thing is really fucked up. Clinton failed for reasons out of his control, and both sides have the fear of retribution from fanatics (Rabin wasn't murdered by a Muslim, it was an Israeli fanatic). From what I can glean Obama does support going back to the pre 1967 borders and creating a Palestinian state, but will probably be forced to veto the UN vote.

New article today saying how Obama is pissy with Israel's prime minister now because he had allied himself with the American right and seeks his defeat in the next election.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opi...125399038.html

Nobody is being neutral about it and those who are trying to see it from both sides are being shut up. Israel got too much of a hand in America's pocket for the Palestinians to rely on American support, and lets face it that Islamophobia and the idea that "terrorism is bad, period, dropping a bomb from the sky is far more legitimate." instead of "violence is bad, period." really can't help.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Saya

I obviously dislike both Canadian and American governments and I think the foreign policy thing is really fucked up.

I say the same thing and still get called anti-American.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Enough thread-jacking out of you, mister. This isn't that far off the point about Canada and the U.S. opposing statehood for Palestine, and it would probably be tolerable, if it weren't for the fact that every other post from you is about this "America sucks and will get what's coming to it" shit.

Take a chill pill, "Sir Broken Record".

I didn't start the thread, I just responded to the posts that were here sure.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I say the same thing and still get called anti-American.

No. No. No!

You get called anti-American because every other post from you is anti-American.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

No. No. No!

You get called anti-American because every other post from you is anti-American.

Anti-American or anti-capitalist?

Think about it.

[Ben Lahnger]

What, they don't have capitalism elsewhere in the world? Because if your posts are solely reflective of your anti-capitalism stance, you are either woefully ignorant of how many places engage in it, or you are woefully unbalanced and unfair in who you choose to protest. And I don't think saying you're targeting the country you perceive to be the biggest perpetrator is a sufficient answer.

Nope. Clearly, you're just anti-American through and through, sure.

[CptSternn]

America has a special kinda capitalism - it's a plutocracy.

I could go into great detail, but this isn't the thread for it. Actually, there are a few threads on this where we have already discussed this, but I will happily do so again if you like sure.

[Versus]

[CptSternn]

There is a thin line between patriot and terrorist.

In 1776 Americas founding fathers were all deemed terrorists.

It's all a matter of perspective. Anyone ever watch Mel Gibson in The Patriot?

[Alan]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

America has a special kinda capitalism - it's a plutocracy.

So you're not against capitalism, you're against 'plutocracy'
And it's America who 'has a plutocracy' not anywhere else in the world.
Therefore, yes, you're anti-American, not anti-capitalist.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Alan

So you're not against capitalism, you're against 'plutocracy'
And it's America who 'has a plutocracy' not anywhere else in the world.
Therefore, yes, you're anti-American, not anti-capitalist.

That would make him an anti-plutocrat.

[Alan]

Even though it's America that is a plutocracy and not any other capitalist country?

[JCC]

Opposition to the political philosophy of a country is not the same as opposition to the country, at best it would mean an automatic dislike of that country's establishment and even that is tenuous. Opposition to a country suggests opposition to its culture, traditions, history, people etc, anti-plutocracy is what it is.

[Alan]

Except if you read his thread of plutocracy you realize he didn't mention one thing that is plutocratic. He is only riling at the way America conducts its capitalism and calling it a plutocracy.
For him, the definition of plutocracy is "American capitalism"
Thus, he's not anti-capitalist, and he is not anti-plutocratic. He's just anti-american.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

There is a thin line between patriot and terrorist.

In 1776 Americas founding fathers were all deemed terrorists.

It's all a matter of perspective. Anyone ever watch Mel Gibson in The Patriot?

It was more directed at Saya.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

There is a thin line between patriot and terrorist.

In 1776 Americas founding fathers were all deemed terrorists.

It's all a matter of perspective. Anyone ever watch Mel Gibson in The Patriot?

It's bad enough that you expect us to read your constant anti-American-capitalism rants ... now you're trying to coerce us into watching bad Mel Gibson (financed by American capitalists) movies?!?

Enough, good sir, I say enough!

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

It's bad enough that you expect us to read your constant anti-American-capitalism rants ... now you're trying to coerce us into watching bad Mel Gibson (financed by American capitalists) movies?!?

Enough, good sir, I say enough!

What the hell are you talking about? The Patriot made tomahawks cool again.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

It's bad enough that you expect us to read your constant anti-American-capitalism rants ... now you're trying to coerce us into watching bad Mel Gibson (financed by American capitalists) movies?!?

Enough, good sir, I say enough!

You have to be able to separate your views for a government from the views you hold about the people who live there.

Something you learn living in N. Ireland.