BBC 'Upwardly Gothic' article

[Isibell]

You think the SCA is strange....try a rennie. Honestly...when I saw the comercial for the show that's what I thought they were.

[Isibell]

Yep. Rennie=staff member of any kind at a renaissance fair or festivial. Very different from the SCA. And if you ask them they will tell you. Loudly

[Pathogen.]

Originally Posted by horrorgirl

Reality tv shows and talk shows always look for people who are on the lunatic fringe or who can't defend themselves properly. Remember all of those talk shows that would have Mansonites as guests during the late 90's? It was like watching a train wreck.

HORRORGIRL: Well said. "Reality" & daytime talk programmes. 2 good reasons why I avoid watching regular and/or cable television.

[Isibell]

But is it fair to say that it is just reality and daytime talk? Couldn't it be said that entertainment looks for things on the fringe? What about entertainment of old, if you will. Say for example...Circus side shows?

[DemureDemise]

Originally Posted by Xnguela

I love Ren Fests. I have a costume I bought at one, and I wear it to the festival every year.

I did that last year and people kept coming up to me and asking where the bathroom was, I guess they assumed I was part of the festival.

[Jane13]

Originally Posted by chloegoth

SCA = the Society for Creative Anachronism (i.e. a group that does medieval and renaissance re-creation). www.sca.org

We're the dorks with the goofy outfits and the swords (but not LARPers). I do period (ca. 1350) fencing and costuming.

Can I have a dork trophy? I play in a band that plays medieval, renaissance and Elizebethan music XD It's uber fun.

[DemureDemise]

Originally Posted by Xnguela

If you're from Wisconsin, you maybe go to the same Ren Fest I go to! Craziness, huh? Except that I go to one in Minnesota, but it's close(ish) to the border.

No one asks me where the bathroom is, but I walk around holding hands with a guy wearing jeans and a polo shirt.

I hope I can go this year. I feel like shaving my head.

[spookypurple]

Here's another couple of (earlier) articles from good old Auntie...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/c...re/4625430.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/4606327.stm

[Dead Angel]

Originally Posted by Shi'ark

I’m a messed up working class boy from broken home, abusive lonely childhood, no education and all that Jazz. But kids in the middle class have problem too. The family having money doesn’t mean these no broken home, abusive lonely childhood, no education and all that Jazz.

I know people from the so called middle and working class, other then who has how much these not much difference. Also why do you have to be messed up to be a Goth anyway?.

I remember there are 'trend goth s' the fuckers who dress in all black, use trench coats (or did) like white makeup and just can't get the idea that Goth' is a PHILSOPY!On line I've seen all kinds. Christian Goth.

I'm of the thought that the 'trend goth' is really the problem here, as these 'goth' are upwardly mobile because they can 'put their goth past behind them easier. I'm beginning to believe the real goth are a forgotten memory.

Also consider no parent wants to be responsible for a little goth' and thus wants all godo kkinds to be in football. Disastrous for the community because now all these teens with problems out of 'The OC' are coming into the goth subculture thinking THEY HAVE ISSSUES *AND* are fighting what their parents want by becoming goth.! :o Wow.... and these are the same that write BAD poetry.

Usually found on boards is the 'emo' (emotional teen; sometimes refered as the same online group by lesser lifeforms '(Emo/goth)') who sits around complaining about the subculture's bad fates and their pampered lives from a computer in their home.

If you can't tell I'm a bit ticked at the trend goth s... a 'recent' phenomenon.

[chloegoth]

Originally Posted by Jane13

Can I have a dork trophy? I play in a band that plays medieval, renaissance and Elizebethan music XD It's uber fun.

I dunno... if there's a trophy, you probably qualify (lord knows I do). If you join the SCA and perform your music in front of someone at an Arts and Sciences fair, or just in front of somebody important enough, you might get a fancy illuminated scroll...

[Pathogen.]

Originally Posted by spookypurple

Here's another couple of (earlier) articles from good old Auntie...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/c...re/4625430.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/4606327.stm

SPOOKYPURPLE: The story about the "Gothic Rev" should be would be more appropriate for the "Christian Goths" topic-thread that Bunnicula started.

The story about environmentally-conscious Goths cleaning up Eldon Green, on the other hand, shows others that Goths actually do care about the environment, who are taking a stand against pollution in any form. Even parks where they hang out. For a hella long time, I thought I was the only one of our kind who gave a shit about environmental issues. This has proven me dead fucking wrong.

[Deviant Kitten]

Originally Posted by Shi'ark

The media like to think it strange that if Mum and Dad are making less then 20’000 that your be doing well at school and have a liking for the arts and all the other stuff the think fits in to this subculture. But the way things have always looked to me is that ‘Goths’, same as metalers come from all backgrounds. I don’t known what The BBC were talking about.

*sigh* It annoys me too, Shi'ark. I hate the stereotypical view that middle class children become educated professionals whilst children from working class families end up in dead-end, low-pay jobs and have little or no interest in the arts. I grew up on a council estate and my family had very little money, but I've been addicted to books ever since I was four and learning to read. Also I much prefer drawing or writing to sitting in front of the telly for hours.

Sometimes I get upset with myself because I dropped out of school (due to serious depression which I was getting no help for), thus helping to perpetuate the very stereotype I hate! I'm planning on taking some art courses and probably some foreign language ones too now that I'm a little less erm... unbalanced. This is purely for myself though; I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. I just love to learn and I want to escape the dreaded 9-5 treadmill for a creative, exciting career.

Anyway, to cut my ramblings short, I believe that not only gothic people but also all manner of articulate, cultured people can come from any background. I didn't have a problem with the Sussex Uni's research portraying goths as largely non-violent and very much interested in education - this rings true from what I've seen - I just felt that the emphasis on middle class backgrounds was rubbish!

Originally Posted by Shi'ark

Just one more thing: never trust what is written in a British newspaper… well The Guardian’s ok.

I preferred the Guardian's article over the other three. It had a touch of humour to it and, as you said, it focused less on class.

[Pathogen.]

Originally Posted by Deviant Kitten

*sigh* It annoys me too, Shi'ark. I hate the stereotypical view that middle class children become educated professionals whilst children from working class families end up in dead-end, low-pay jobs and have little or no interest in the arts. I grew up on a council estate and my family had very little money, but I've been addicted to books ever since I was four and learning to read. Also I much prefer drawing or writing to sitting in front of the telly for hours.

Sometimes I get upset with myself because I dropped out of school (due to serious depression which I was getting no help for), thus helping to perpetuate the very stereotype I hate! I'm planning on taking some art courses and probably some foreign language ones too now that I'm a little less erm... unbalanced. This is purely for myself though; I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. I just love to learn and I want to escape the dreaded 9-5 treadmill for a creative, exciting career.

Anyway, to cut my ramblings short, I believe that not only gothic people but also all manner of articulate, cultured people can come from any background. I didn't have a problem with the Sussex Uni's research portraying goths as largely non-violent and very much interested in education - this rings true from what I've seen - I just felt that the emphasis on middle class backgrounds was rubbish!


I preferred the Guardian's article over the other three. It had a touch of humour to it and, as you said, it focused less on class.

D.K.: This article was rubbish, too. There was hella focus on the middle-class [or if want to be more political about it, the managing-class]. Not every child born & raised in the working-class grew up inarticulate with no interest in art or culture. I've been blue-collar since childhood.
Even when I was knee-high to a roach, education was important. Like you, I've started reading when I was 4. Read everything in my aunt & uncle's library, from the Bible to Shakespeare to Dr. Seuss. I used multisyllabic, dictionary/thesarus-level words in my personal vocabulary since age 6. I went to/lived at a residential school for "gifted children" for 2 years [1974-1976], located in a Jewish neighbourhood in Brooklyn, New York called Boro Park. Since the poor Jews prized education above all else, that influenced this little Black-Sicilian boy to keep on reading.
Art came easy. Didn't start drawing until age 10 & the more I kept doing it, the more proficient at it I became. Around age 13, I started creative painting. I wanted to be a comic book artist when I grew up. By my late teens-early 20s, I started going to more art exhibits, since I believed that art appreciation built more character than playing football [or any sports] did. Then around age 31, after years of perfecting both painting, drawing & [for a while] creative writing, those gifts were gone.

I can still write. Otherwise, I wouldn't be on this messageboard! But my ability to draw & to paint have been long gone & I don't know if I could do either anymore.

The point I'm attempting to make with this is to prove what you said was correct: Articulate, cultured people can come from ANY background, not just the middle-class or from the rich. And to prove that Bollocks Broadcasting Company article false. This is coming from a Black man who spent his childhood in both the slums & the suburbs. I'm still working-class, although I'm a full-time community college student & a Goth.

And D.K., you strike me as an intelligent, well-read young woman. Do whatever you can to make your ambitions on taking art & foreign language courses a reality.

[Deviant Kitten]

Originally Posted by Pathogen.

...The point I'm attempting to make with this is to prove what you said was correct: Articulate, cultured people can come from ANY background, not just the middle-class or from the rich. And to prove that Bollocks Broadcasting Company article false. This is coming from a Black man who spent his childhood in both the slums & the suburbs. I'm still working-class, although I'm a full-time community college student & a Goth.

And D.K., you strike me as an intelligent, well-read young woman. Do whatever you can to make your ambitions on taking art & foreign language courses a reality.

Thank you very much, Pathogen, your words mean a lot to me. *smooches*

I've just got myself a full-time job so I'm finally going to be able to save up to take the courses I'm interested in. I just hope the job doesn't take up so much time and energy that I'm too tired to study! It's only a job in the bakery of a petrol station, but it means getting up a lot earlier than this here lazy little goth is used to! *wink*

[Pathogen.]

Originally Posted by Deviant Kitten

Thank you very much, Pathogen, your words mean a lot to me. *smooches*

I've just got myself a full-time job so I'm finally going to be able to save up to take the courses I'm interested in. I just hope the job doesn't take up so much time and energy that I'm too tired to study! It's only a job in the bakery of a petrol station, but it means getting up a lot earlier than this here lazy little goth is used to! *wink*

Congrats, D.K.!! That's sounds like a step in the right direction!

[Deviant Kitten]

Thanks, Pathogen
I hope so!

[Jane13]

I remember there are 'trend goth s' the fuckers who dress in all black, use trench coats (or did) like white makeup and just can't get the idea that Goth' is a PHILSOPY!On line I've seen all kinds. Christian Goth.

Hey, now, wait a second, I missed this. I bring this up more than I would like to, but I feel I can't just let my religion be shot down all the time. And I do mean pretty much all the time (generally in real life more than anywhere else).

There are people on these boards who are very supportive, understanding (or at least open-minded), and respectful. But who are you to say one can't be Christian and goth? If you care to start this crap, please do not put it on this thread but on one of the many others, including "Christian Goths?" or "Christianity too Controlling?"

You know one of the reasons I respect my Wiccan, Atheist, Agnostic, Whathaveyou friends in terms of religion? Because most of them don't put up with crap for their beleifs and in turn give the same respect for others. THANKS.

[WolfMoon]

Well said, Jane!

Bashing anyone's religion is frowned upon. We can't call ourselves open-mindd if we don't accept all religions.

[Pathogen.]

Here's another similar article to add to the amassing pile:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/...735690,00.html

Goths have been getting hella good press lately! Makes this old Black Goth so proud!

[Corpus_Draconis]

*SCREAMS* SISTERS OF MERCY IS DOING A TOUR???? Now I really wish I lived in Europe. *pouts* Why, oh why did my great-great grandparents have to move to Canada? Why couldn't they have just stayed in Germany? *pines for decent goth scene*

The list of ways to tell if your boss is/was a goth is slightly irritating. It kinda flattens out the Goth thing, I find, with the whole "Goths do this, Goths wear this, Goths drink this." They don't give much indication of variety.

Apparently I fit the middle-class, intellectual, artistic, good-student thing that they desribe. I skipped about three classes in High school, and those were on days like the last day before Christmas Holidays, when we don't do anything anyway. I've skipped a few more classes than that this year in University, but those were because I either needed to go home, or because I was doing other work (Art or English, mainly).

Anway, I'm from a middle-class family and am currently going to University. I'm probably one of three goths on campus. It's a preppy, mainly-white, spirited, "normal" University set in a conservative city that still has a very strong small-town feel about it. However, the fact that I'm here for fine arts makes it quite bearable, because most of my art classmates are some of the awesomest people I've met in my life. It's also more bearable because I feel like I can be who I want to be, and that is important to me.

I've had a pretty good life, I'd say. I found it irritating, though, living in a large house, and now want a bachelor apartment in some old, rather dirty-looking building. There's something about vaguely slumish apartment buildings that appeal to me...

I think what appeals to me about Goth is the dark, artistic, intellectual parts of it, plus I just like the fashion... I like science, enjoy reading, and Live for Art.

It is really nice to see some positive publicity though. It gives me hope. There's little to none of that in North America. Again, I wish I lived in Europe.

[WolfMoon]

Pathogen, I like most of that article. I know I've read it somewhere before. The only part I don't like about it is this:

Gillian Porter is now a successful PR but remembers a misspent youth of "electric-blue hair extensions, big boots with great big skulls, more crimped hair than Pete Burns. Totally and utterly ridiculous." Porter wasn't depressed, although she concedes that, "Listening to a lot of Sisters of Mercy doesn't exactly cheer you up."

To me it seems that they're interviewing some people for whom goth was just a 'phase'. I don't like people like that representing the sub-culture.

[Pathogen.]

Sounds like the prattling of someone who fully hated her own Gothic past. Everything about it. And you've got a point. The last thing our subculture needs is someone like that representing all Goths. Seriously.

[Deviant Kitten]

I agree with Pathogen and Wolfie - why is it always the people who've "grown out of their gothic phase" who end up representing us? I'm sure it's the same for all subcultures, ie. "I used to be a punk with the spiked hair and ripped clothes, thank god I grew out of that! LOL" - I see shit like that all the time and it annoys me no end. Why do so many people insist that eveyone who is "different" in their youth will inevitably morph into an "average person" and blend back in to the mainstream culture?!

I know people who I'd consider gothic who are in their 30's and beyond. It's not a "phase" for some of us!

Edit: Wow, that's a lot of angry quotation marks! *laughs*

[WolfMoon]

Right on, Dev!

And btw, listening to The Sisters does cheer me up.

[spookypurple]

Yeah, nothin' like doing the Funky Chicken to get you out of a blue patch

"Hey now, hey now now..."

And she's off...!