Help for male beginner - what to wear

[HavelockV]

That sounds perfectly respectable and practical yet stylish approach.

[Okami]

Why thank you.

[KontanKarite]

Black lipstick? I dunno.

That is a bit on the cheesy side. But more power to you.

[Solumina]

Most of the time it does look like crap but it can be done well. Just be sure to apply carefully (a lipstick brush may be a good idea) and use a quality product (not the shit sold at Hot Topic). If you can't find a good black lipstick then use black eyeliner and put a gloss over it and remember that you can blend the two so you don't have to go for an opaque black lip.

[Serren]

Sounds good. Its really a matter of what you feel comfortable in.

It could be an idea to maybe go shopping and try several things on without buying anything to get a feel of what you like.

[dead_dreams]

I'm sure that you've already been told this, but, I'll tell you again. Wear whatever the hell you want. Nobody can control what you do and what you decide.

[twistedsyn]

My dads side is Jewish but I like to wear WW2 or German military jackets.


Love to get me a WW2 Military Officers Greatcoat TOO . Like Jack wears on Torchwood, but a little shorter. Cause I'm, well, short.

I doubt many people on the street or clubs are going to bring up that piece of history, or call him out for wearing something out of character for that time frame.

Most of the people claiming to dress in "Victorian" clothing are actually mixing from different periods anyways.

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

I personally am bemused to read that a black man would want to attire himself in the raiment of a class of individuals particularly responsible for perpetrating the social oppression that characterized the Victorian era. German military uniforms are swanky and all, but they're not for me, you know what I mean?
Havelock, I don't see how a style drawing upon any of the influences Lolly mentioned would suggest a Halloween costume any more than Victoriana.

[Porcelain]

I didn't know people had to TRY to be goth.
And here I am, thinking that I'm normal because I dress a certain way and society lumps me into a category, which, incidentally is shared by other people with similar tastes...
All this time I was thinking that this categorizing thing was society's fault, but it's actually the individual's?!?

Forgive my ignorance.

[RozzVanian]

Don't TRY to dress goth. That's just poseuresque. Don't be a poseur, dress the way you normally dress. Don't try to be the personification of a certain subculture if it doesn't come naturally.

[Porcelain]

Originally Posted by RozzVanian

Don't TRY to dress goth. That's just poseuresque. Don't be a poseur, dress the way you normally dress. Don't try to be the personification of a certain subculture if it doesn't come naturally.

I concur.

Just be yourself.

[blackwater1110]

Originally Posted by Porcelain

I concur.

Just be yourself.

Perhaps he's trying to figure himself out, and that's why he posted asking for fashion advice here? If who you are includes an appreciation for a certain aesthetic, go for it, but don't let anyone here tell you that you must dress a 'certain way' or you won't fit in. That would defeat the purpose of expressing your individuality in the first place.

[HavelockV]

Perhaps he's trying to figure himself out, and that's why he posted asking for fashion advice here?

Well said, Blackwater. In his defense, Mr. Okami is not the only member of these boards who has posted seeking advice and imput on his fashion choices (Opteron Man fits this description). He seems genuine enough in his pursuit of goth, so I would hesitate to automatically accuse him of being a poseur or of caring too much about how to cultivate a 'correct' goth appearance. I am certain many of us have likewise gone through a period of experimentation with our style. Coming up with a look that we are comfortable with is not always an overnight transition.

[Porcelain]

Yeah, finding something that looks good is one thing.
Purposely looking for something that makes you look stereotypical, is another.
I just find it a little...I dunno. Fucked up, maybe.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by twistedsyn

My dads side is Jewish but I like to wear WW2 or German military jackets.


Love to get me a WW2 Military Officers Greatcoat TOO . Like Jack wears on Torchwood, but a little shorter. Cause I'm, well, short.

If there's an excuse for attiring oneself like a Nazi, that excuse certainly isn't aesthetic. I don't give a shit how cool the cut of your jacket may be-- if it's identifiably a Nazi uniform, I'm going to (correctly) assume you're comfortable associating yourself with a genocidal war machine.

I doubt many people on the street or clubs are going to bring up that piece of history, or call him out for wearing something out of character for that time frame.

That's true, because most people, especially among those found at goth clubs, are idiots who romanticize the Victorian aristocracy and neglect to acknowledge it as the sexist, classist, racist institution that it was. A good number of educated people, however, will look on a black dude in full Victorian regalia as a sad irony.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

I think the thing about the Victorian period is that we're getting far enough away from it that we can start separating the aesthetic from the values. People can wear medieval-inspired clothes without having other people think they sleep under paintings of Sts Cosmas and Damian to cure their kidney disease, right?

Then again, I'm white and middle-class. I probably don't realize the full extent of the issues. I am also not a history buff (except as it relates to art), though I do know that they were classist and racist and sexist.
But DAMN they made pretty shit.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci

I think the thing about the Victorian period is that we're getting far enough away from it that we can start separating the aesthetic from the values. People can wear medieval-inspired clothes without having other people think they sleep under paintings of Sts Cosmas and Damian to cure their kidney disease, right?

Everyone wears Victorian-inspired clothes, as the influence of that era's sartorial developments on the fashion of today is indelible. There's nothing wrong with that, but we're talking about a uniform here, the equivalent of attiring oneself like a medieval king or peasant, from which behavior others would certainly infer one to carry out far stranger practices than totally unremarkable saint-worship.

[HavelockV]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

That's true, because most people, especially among those found at goth clubs, are idiots who romanticize the Victorian aristocracy and neglect to acknowledge it as the sexist, classist, racist institution that it was. A good number of educated people, however, will look on a black dude in full Victorian regalia as a sad irony.

Not that it will alter your view of individuals who enjoy Victorian fashion, but I would like to point out that Okami has stated that he is not interested in going the route of 'full Victorian regalia' so much as incorporating aspects of it into his appearance. I also feel that it is somewhat ignorant of you to continue using him as a whipping boy for your views regarding that time period.

It almost seems like your intent is to instill such a sense of ethnic guilt and obligation in him as to force him to repress a look that he seems naturally drawn to. While I feel that in some instances this may be justified, such as a the child of a Holocaust survivor strutting a full SS uniform in public, I would venture to say that Okami's attraction to Victorian style is tangential at worst.

Let the man, and all those 'goth club ... idiots' dress in their own way, and leave your whole intellectual superiority complex out of the equation. I fail to see why you insist on letting your apparently educated perspective spoil the harmless enjoyment that others derive out of dressing the way they like to.

God forbid someone wear a formal tailcoat or a taffeta bustle gown because Gothicusmaximus declares such affectation to be socially irresponsible.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by HavelockV

Not that it will alter your view of individuals who enjoy Victorian fashion, but I would like to point out that Okami has stated that he is not interested in going the route of 'full Victorian regalia' so much as incorporating aspects of it into his appearance. I also feel that it is somewhat ignorant of you to continue using him as a whipping boy for your views regarding that time period.

He said he was 'kind of interested in that victorian look' and never really indicated to what extent he plans to adopt the style.

It almost seems like your intent is to instill such a sense of ethnic guilt and obligation in him as to force him to repress a look that he seems naturally drawn to.

I'm not so ambitious as to attempt changing anyone's mind. My intent, believe it or not, is to express my opinion on an internet forum, specifically the opinion that a black man who dresses up as a Victorian is making a joke of himself. For one to be self-aware such that he's in on this joke is possible, but that doesn't seem to be the direction in which Okami is moving here.

Let the man, and all those 'goth club ... idiots' dress in their own way, and leave your whole intellectual superiority complex out of the equation. I fail to see why you insist on letting your apparently educated perspective spoil the harmless enjoyment that others derive out of dressing the way they like to.

Interesting that you would choose 'harmless' as the best word to describe the legitimization of a bigoted culture. I might have gone with something else, but to each his own.

[Anima_Severem]

Victorian-inspired fashion does not have to be a part of the entire classist, sexist and racist institutions. I think it's a purely aesthetic appeal. I find the Victorian look to be classic and almost perennial.

It's pretty easy to get the Victorian wardrobe styling, but there's some other subtle touches that could give the outfit your own take. One thing you shouldn't do is just copy what you see or else you'll look like an unoriginal poseur. Being of Black ethnicity, I find that a good touch of originality would be found in how you style your hair. For the more classic Victorian hair you could try straightening your hair and slicking it back cleanly. Try to leave a part through the center of the scalp.

It's a personal opinion of mine, but for some reason (if you have hair long enough) I think dreadlocks would look good under a top hat, should you choose to wear one.

Also, it might be useful to go on Google and look up Elegant Gothic Aristocrat for extra ideas.

[HavelockV]

Originally Posted by Okami

Thanks. I was thinking of wearing a white or black, long sleeved shirt with a black waistcoat, black trousers and black canvases. Oh, and a black hat. Good or bad? I think it's more my style. I personally like sporting black nail varnish and want to wear black lipstick.

Gothicusmaximus, the description Okami gives doesn't strike me as a thoroughly historical employment of the style.

Interesting that you would choose 'harmless' as the best word to describe the legitimization of a bigoted culture. I might have gone with something else, but to each his own.

To my mind, legitimization implies that one embraces a subject beyond a superficial level and manifests that acceptance through serious behaviors that reflect said subject. Fashion is hardly made of such heady stuff.

(And lest I be accused of hypocricy, I maintain that occasionally adopting something such as a lighthearted, aristocratic mode of speech is done so more in the spirit of good-natured mockery rather than any real intent to pass myself off as a reincarnated Victorian noble. *grins*)

[Lolly PopMuzik]

Originally Posted by HavelockV

Not that it will alter your view of individuals who enjoy Victorian fashion, but I would like to point out that Okami has stated that he is not interested in going the route of 'full Victorian regalia' so much as incorporating aspects of it into his appearance. I also feel that it is somewhat ignorant of you to continue using him as a whipping boy for your views regarding that time period.

It almost seems like your intent is to instill such a sense of ethnic guilt and obligation in him as to force him to repress a look that he seems naturally drawn to. While I feel that in some instances this may be justified, such as a the child of a Holocaust survivor strutting a full SS uniform in public, I would venture to say that Okami's attraction to Victorian style is tangential at worst.

Let the man, and all those 'goth club ... idiots' dress in their own way, and leave your whole intellectual superiority complex out of the equation. I fail to see why you insist on letting your apparently educated perspective spoil the harmless enjoyment that others derive out of dressing the way they like to.

God forbid someone wear a formal tailcoat or a taffeta bustle gown because Gothicusmaximus declares such affectation to be socially irresponsible.

Whipping boy? Real choice of words there. :P

I'm not trying to do any of that, I just want to him to see that there are other options out there should he see that the Victorian style really ISN'T all peaches and cream and can be very limiting due to both the history our people have with it and the fact that almost everyone involved with it has next to no desire to stretch the concept beyond upper crust aristocrat. For as much as I don't really care for it, I'm surprised steampunk is still alive.

I can respect and maybe even like some aspects of Victorian style (schoolmarm, abolitionist, apothecary proprietor, madam, undertaker) but no one ever wants to be seedy, adventurous or creative. It's always the same aristocratic trappings and everyone always HAS to look dignified.

Another serious concern that I missed is that Okami only mentioned race in passing and it honestly sounds like he is more into the idea of being a goth man rather than a black man.

It's a shame he's not here often because I really do want to hear his side of the story. And I hope he at least thoroughly researches everything before he goes forward with it.

[HavelockV]

Originally Posted by Lolly PopMuzik

Whipping boy? Real choice of words there. :P

In retrospect I admit that it probably was not the most appropriate term to use under the circumstances. Of course, I would hope that you would deduce that I was referring to the 16th and 17th century European practice of royal families retaining boys of common birth in the household to be punished in the place of misbehaved young princes. If you took offense, I do apologize as that was far from my intent.

It is certainly understandable that you might feel protective of Okami and would like to see him incorporate his ethnic heritage more into his self-expression, in this case through how he dresses. While I agree with you that it is important for people to retain a sense of identity regarding their cultural roots, I do not necessarily believe that fashion is the only way such tribute can be paid. I confess I do not know much about him, but it is not beyond imagining that he might incorporate his African heritage into other aspects of his life, just not in his clothing style.

I myself have a few friends who are active Steampunk costumers and I greatly admire their innovative creations. It seems to me that the enormous popularity of Steampunk at the present time would give you some hope that not everyone is obsessed with only the aristocratic end of the Victorian spectrum, as may have been the case in the past. It has been fascinating indeed to witness the growth and development of this offshoot from the genre.

[JCC]

Steampunk's a bit shit though, isn't it?

[RozzVanian]

Originally Posted by JCC

Steampunk's a bit shit though, isn't it?

I have yet to hear what steampunk sounds like...

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by HavelockV

Gothicusmaximus, the description Okami gives doesn't strike me as a thoroughly historical employment of the style.

It doesn't matter whether the aesthetic impeccably accurate or not, a 'Victorian look' is, pretty much by nature, perceptibly Victorian. Honestly, what Okami does and doesn't do seems irrelevant to me, even if his next post is 'I've decided to go with more of a surfer vibe' I won't cease to argue that the vast majority of Neo-Victorians are assholes.

To my mind, legitimization implies that one embraces a subject beyond a superficial level and manifests that acceptance through serious behaviors that reflect said subject. Fashion is hardly made of such heady stuff.

The problem is that to separate the style from its connotations is impossible. Consider simpler symbols-- crosses suggest Christianity, Stars of David suggest Judaism, pentacles suggest stupidity-- their superficial properties can't be divorced from their meaning.

(And lest I be accused of hypocricy, I maintain that occasionally adopting something such as a lighthearted, aristocratic mode of speech is done so more in the spirit of good-natured mockery rather than any real intent to pass myself off as a reincarnated Victorian noble. *grins*)

Sometimes jokes fail to be understood as such if they aren't even a little funny.