Hello - and hope to make some friends

BlackVeil · 07-16-2011, 11:40 AM

Hi,

Yes, I am new here. I have perused the site before and love it a lot, so thought I'd enjoy the forum and also possibly make some friends.

About me.....

I make perfume. Bath & Body Products. It's not what I always used to do though.

I worked in the medical examiner's office. Background is in forensic science and chemistry. It was dark...the ME's office was, that is. Quite depressing, and yeah, it got to me. Couldn't seem to shake off each case, and dwelt upon each case (person) after each autopsy. Some worse than others.

Decided I couldn't go on with it, kinda lost for some years after, then got into fragrance (yeah, I know - a total opposite type thing)

I don't look goth, not even sure if I am goth. But, I've always been drawn to the dark and macabre, family says I have a morbid curiosity of things.

Who knows.

Anyway - hello to you all. I'm still checking the forum out, seeing the various threads. Message me if you like. I'm pretty friendly.

Grausamkeit · 07-16-2011, 12:29 PM

Members don't get message privileges until they have about 200 posts, IIRC.

Welcome to the forum.

BlackVeil · 07-16-2011, 01:49 PM

Oh, Ok. Thank you for letting me know. Appreciate it!
PS. love your pic

HumanePain · 07-16-2011, 02:24 PM

Welcome. Tell me: did your work in the ME office pay well?
How did you get that job?

BlackVeil · 07-16-2011, 02:58 PM

No. Pay in the MEs office is nothing great - it's a government job, even the medical examiner said his pay wasn't comparable to what any "big" doctor would make (ie - plastic surgeon, or heart surgeon, etc)

But, he did say he loved his job, no malpractice, place to work, paid employees (not by him, etc). Basically, no overhead, just his salary. No one argued with him, everyone was.....dead. I mean, you could have an accident and cut an artery and...what's going to happen. He'd go through several gloves during each autopsy just cutting through them he was so fast.

I got into it because I wrote and asked if I could come in and speak with him, as I was a pre-med student, who then went to forensic science and chemistry (wanting to be a pathologist). Fortunately for me, he took to me...and allowed me "in" right away. Gave me access to all the case files, his medical books...everything (the chief investigator wasn't that happy about it), but the ME had jurisdiction and called the shots. I was grateful for the experience.

He was awesome - took me under his wing, even on the first day, he waited to start the first case until I had seen the short info films and signed my life away. Being in a morgue is nothing like what you see on TV. Not even shows like Dr. G. My 2nd day there - we did a decomp. (which was sectioned off in another area of the morgue with its own air system, due to the smell). I was thrown right into it all...literally.

First day, first case...GSW to the temple with a .44 after the man beat his girlfriend into a coma, then went to McDonalds, then checked into a hotel and blew his head off.

You don't see things like the "splash zone" or the smell, which is of decomp, death and bleach. Its just nothing like you'd be prepared for.

Tough stuff. And I pretty much knew what I was getting into, and the part I couldn't handle was the people (the gruesome nature of it, I handled...I never fainted, got sick, etc), but the last case I was on, was a 6 month old baby girl...and that was it. No more for me.

I tried to do what they said, you know, be a voice for the dead.

Didn't work.

But no - the pay isn't stellar. You have to want to be there.

HumanePain · 07-16-2011, 04:57 PM

Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. Thank you for the details.

If you don't mind, since it it seems you are willing to discuss it, may I probe a little more?

Regarding the personal aspect of the work: did you try thinking to yourself "I must remember they are not suffering anymore, this is only a shell, a casting of the person that once was..." Did that kind of thinking occur to you, and if it did, did it help?

What were your personal thoughts as you observed or performed work on the cadavers? Was it a battle with your reason controlling instinctive revulsion, or was it easy to suppress it until later?

What worked for you and what didn't in terms of dealing with the reality of the work and the subjects you saw, and your instincts or feelings?

Did the experience change your opinions or attitudes about life and spirituality (if any)?

Sorry if this is too personal, and I will understand if you do not wish to discuss it.

BlackVeil · 07-16-2011, 05:50 PM

I don't mind discussing it. I was very passionate about it in my studies and intrigued with death and such. That is why I wanted to go into this so badly. (and this was way prior to all the forensic shows that are on TV now), I never saw anything like an autopsy even on TV until I started with the MEs office.

My initial reaction was like "omg"

The thoughts that I had were like...this is *what* we are! I did not see it as human almost (once we're opened up, the insides, etc) At one point in the autopsy your scalp is pulled down and over to around your lip area, so that the scull cap can be removed, your brain is gone as it is taken and each organ sliced up and checked for disease/damage, etc. A piece is kept for a slide (for the lab boys) and your pituitary gland is always removed and kept (for which reasons I have no idea and never asked). But, back to that point in the autopsy...your scalp skin/hair is pulled down over your face...your rib cage has been opened and breast "plate" removed...your organs are lying next to you on a gurney and being weighed shortly, or are being sliced up and examined. Your bowels are the only thing we did not cut up. (unless there was a reason to do so). All organs are weighed, recorded, etc. During this one moment....when you see a human being that way, to me...it was not how anyone should be....treated? I don't know how to explain it. I think I just thought...holy shit, this is what we are? It did make me think. It just did not seem human or humane. (yet I was disturbed emotionally)

It seemed wrong somehow, to be tearing up a body this way, and it seemed weird to see what all we are (if that makes sense). This is one reason the last case I was on, the little baby girl...they called her "it" (like, go ahead, turn it over now) and I was like...No, don't call HER "it." (and I realized my emotion was controlling me in a non-positive way to deal with this work).

I know why they did call her "it" (because it was also hard for them...I think). Maybe not though. They played country music in the morgue (the ME liked it). I remember thinking....ummmm, OK. Great. I hope I don't die in this county. lol

One man was on the gurney and rigor mortis had set in. We kept a bucket of bleach near the sink area (the end of the gurney where your feet would be). When we went to turn him sideways to take photos, his foot almost knocked over the bucket of bleach. The police officers were in there (they almost always were - waiting on news of the case, etc), and one officer said (to the deceased man) "hey now, you can only kick the bucket once!"

I thought it was pretty disrespectful - so in that regard, I didn't feel a lot of it was proper. But, maybe they have to do things to cope with it, or maybe they have seen so much of it, they have become immune and "shock resistant" in a way.

But no, it did not help me to think they were only a shell. I felt sadness for everyone. I saw their names on all the vials we took for samples. One of the first things you do is remove the vitreous out of your eyeballs, put it in vials and refill with tap water. (vitreous humour is a very good post mortem substance of analysis, due to the very slow systemic circulation). So it is always collected. People make noises after death, the eyeballs "deflating" then filling them....No, none of it made me think anyone was a shell.

It was easy for me to control any of the fainting...feeling weak (some people would walk in and throw up) I saw this happen with a newbie that was collecting corneas from the deceased and he walked in right in the middle of an autopsy. I never had any "omg I am going to be sick" feelings. They told me if I did - to look up...at the ceiling, but I never had those feelings.

The part that bothered me was what was done to our bodies, the lack of emotion that was felt towards the deceased, my emotions for these people, and almost a guilt of what we were doing to them.

I did think spiritually. I wondered if they saw what we did. I wondered if what we were doing was right. Was it wrong. I felt conflicted. It certainly did not feel "good." I went into this thinking...I would be a voice for the dead, but I couldn't do it.

When I saw how the police acted, how the ME acted (although he was excellent and did his job well, he was immune to any emotional aspect of it), I could not relate really. (relate to how they could turn that switch off)

Did anything change for me? I sure as hell don't want an autopsy done on me. That's what I thought! But - you have no choice.

The other thing that was a surprise...was suicides were what we saw the most. You never really think that. It's not like its all over the newspapers, or obituaries, you never truly think that you're going to see more suicides than murders...but, wow, loads of suicides and loads of Rx med overdoses (accidental usually). Seeing someone with a rope dug into the flesh of their necks - so far you can barely see the rope because they chose to end their life by hanging, was hard. I saw it all. Plane crashes. A man drowned in the ocean saving his nephew. A man that was killed in a car wreck that would have died very shortly from a heart attack and he probably never knew (we knew once we tried cutting his heart open and the arteries were as hard as cement, the ME was pushing HARD on the scalpel and it took all that to cut it). We saw a woman die in a car wreck and her brain looked like little orange paw prints were all over it, and he told me she had tons of mini strokes and that was not in her medical records. She probably never knew. The little "paw prints" of a faint orange - were indications of mini strokes he said.

You hear about their lives. Their history. You know their names. And then you cut them up to bits, put a glad trash bag in their abdomen, and fill it up with whats left...the bowels, the brain, all the organs...everything chopped up, the bag then tied up, the breast plate put back, and you get to sewing them back up, and then they are released to the funeral home.

Try sewing up a decomp with skin slippage. That was day 2 for me.

Yes - I still have my morbid curiosity of death, medicine, afterlife, things that happen, things that don't happen...but, the morgue did not feel good to me.

I have thought many, many times....how to get out of having an autopsy done on myself! That's for sure.

Drew Keaton · 07-16-2011, 06:09 PM

An ME office? How morbidly fascinating...

Not sure you're goth? Don't worry... goth is whatever you make of it! I was told I wasn't 'goth' once because I'm paralyzed! Ok... so the black wheelchair isn't goth? OK! Welcome... from another new guy...

BlackVeil · 07-16-2011, 06:19 PM

Hi Drew,

Thanks

Yeah, I never really thought of myself as goth, but I like your outlook on it.

It's nice to meet you!

Saya · 07-16-2011, 06:21 PM

Well, holy shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackVeil

Did anything change for me? I sure as hell don't want an autopsy done on me. That's what I thought! But - you have no choice.

Really? I thought it was only done in accidents and suspected murders and such, like if you die in your sleep at home you go straight to the funeral home.

BlackVeil · 07-16-2011, 06:44 PM

No, not really true (but could vary depending on county by county and state by state laws). Some counties have coroners (which is nothing like a state that has MEs per county).

Arkansas used to only have one Crime Lab (in Little Rock) so they were inundated, and I believe their counties were coroners (could be different now)

We did not do cancer patients. I never saw anyone come in due to cancer.

If you die in your sleep at home - what killed you?

There could always be underlying reasons that do not appear, that caused your death, that could be sinister. Maybe it looked like it was a case for a non-autopsy, maybe made to even look that way. Maybe you're 98 and they think its natural causes or a heart attack...but given a closer look, maybe someone injected an air bubble into you via injection and you really died of air embolism. Who knows. There is always, almost always, a reason to look deeper into a cause of death.

We thought a car accident was a car accident until the car and body was brought in, and with no skid marks from tires, and his foot on the accelerator, the ME determined it was suicide.

Have seen a lot of strange things.

BlackVeil · 07-16-2011, 06:46 PM

Oh - and by "no choice" I mean, if the ME determines you will be autopsied, there is no choice, as he holds jurisdiction. Of course, if you die of cancer, or if you are in a county where a coroner just signs off on your death cert. and that's it...then, you wouldn't be autopsied. It really depends on where you live, the laws, etc.

I just meant that once an ME determines you're getting one, you're getting one.

*typo* fixed. lol

HumanePain · 07-16-2011, 10:12 PM

Saya: anytime a person dies without witnesses (or without a doctor present in some states) an autopsy is usually done.

BV: thank you very much for the fascinating detail. I have watched autopsies on youtube and seen surprises when they discover the woman had breast implants etc. but I digress. The main thing is once in a while I do talk to a young person who says they would like to become a mortician or coroner etc. and I suspect they are not prepared mentally or emotionally for what it actually entrails...er, entails.

Thanks again, and please share any other related anecdotes with us.

BlackVeil · 07-17-2011, 12:14 PM

HP - yes, you're correct. It does vary state to state/laws/all that.

A lot of people will say they want to work in a funeral home, and embalming the dead isn't exactly my idea of fun, and then tending to them (for an open casket) to be made to look well again (depending on what damages they may be "fixing" for a viewing) would also not be fun, but in the MEs office, we got what we called "fresh." (the deceased). Not cleaned up and ready for the funeral home, not prepped and veins colored for med school. Just "fresh" off whatever killed them. (along with all the odors and terrible things that came with it)

It was extremely morbid, whether by accidents, suicides, murders...they were "fresh," and we were the first to get them. Where I worked, we started early...as soon as the ME showed up (around 7-8am or so). We stopped at 2pm. Anyone that came in after 2pm, was done the next morning. Most people died at night. From 2pm on, paperwork has to be done on the victims, or some days the ME had to be in court.

A coroner - totally different thing. Either a coroner system is used for medicolegal death investigation, or a medical examiner system is used, and some use a mix of both. This is where various laws come into play. Coroner and Medical Examiner usually get mixed up and confused by most people (which is easy to have happen - I never knew the difference myself prior).

"Coroner" and "ME" can vary in a huge way, even as far as their qualifications and duties. Due to variances in jurisdictions, the definitions between the two vary from place to place. But, the ME I worked with was a trained physician, as a Forensic Pathologist (He had been to med school, and residency is very long (like 5-6 years). Friend of mine is a heart surgeon and he went through a long rez like that, so being a Forensic Path is an arduous process to get through all that schooling and training.

Sometimes though, an ME can be a physician, and not exactly a FP). Every state varies. Some states will have an ME that sets laws for each county, and only requires the ME to be a doc. (could be a GP, Ob/GYN, etc)

A coroner can be an elected official, with no training at all. They just have to put down what they may think was the cause of death. (prob getting most of their info/help from the police investigating). The doc I worked with got really offended if he was ever referred to as a coroner. (because of the extensive training, med school, rez...whereas a coroner could be the local mailman that got elected). So that was a no-no - for anyone to call him that (but see, most people just didn't know the difference, and meant no harm to him). He was quirky...great at his craft, but just one of those guys....

It's all interesting...again, I was drawn into it, even Crime Scene stuff, then went full-blown into thinking I could be a Forensic Pathologist, but after the morgue - noooo thanks.

And, that smell of death. Wow. I mean, we were pretty suited up, as in layers and layers, hair nets, everything...my hair was long/is long, and I'd put it up, didn't matter...*nothing* got that death smell off of me. Hair is porous and it just soaked up that aroma. You could bleach that place 100 times over, and walk in...and smell bleach and death. My ex-husband (wasn't my ex at the time, lol), was in law school and was like....omg, that smell...go take like 4 showers. (trust me, I had to). It's one of those things you (again) don't really think about. That may have been one of the worst things about it all. The combination of it all. The visual, the names, the smells....

Also, once someone is opened up...and the organs are exposed, its an entirely different smell, I can't even describe it. Horrible. Car wrecks...where the bowels or anything were burst open, or the spine "bent" etc...pooled blood, decomps with tons of oils floating in their ab cavity, the maggots...all of it, the smells were horrible.

I asked the doctor before we went into that "room" where decomps were done, what to do. Like...what to do about the smell (as silly as that sounds) and he said "just make sure you breathe, lol, and I said, how did you get over it..and he said "you don't."

It's true. The smell is like no other, and the insides of our bodies, just stink.

Sooo, I am sure that is enough morbid news on autopsies. (probably more than enough for most of you here)

CarrionCorpse · 07-19-2011, 09:37 AM

I am totally fascinated by you talking about this. Welcome!

Drew Keaton · 07-19-2011, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackVeil

Hi Drew,

Thanks

Yeah, I never really thought of myself as goth, but I like your outlook on it.

It's nice to meet you!

Goth is your attitude, your passion, your love... and a few items of black in the wardrobe help!

ape descendant · 07-19-2011, 11:35 AM

I've always had an interest in anatomy, and had always wondered what it would be like to do what you've done. I am glad to have heard what you've had to say, and I look forward to more of your contributions here.

Saya · 07-19-2011, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarrionCorpse

I am totally fascinated by you talking about this. Welcome!

I know, right? Part of me is like "That sounds horrible and I totally get why you left." and another part of me is like "You should write a book about it!"

CarrionCorpse · 07-19-2011, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

I know, right? Part of me is like "That sounds horrible and I totally get why you left." and another part of me is like "You should write a book about it!"

YES. I would read that book a hundred times. No joke.
You should totally write a book. Make millions. haha

Black Spiral Dancer · 07-19-2011, 10:26 PM

Pleased to meet you, too.

Versus · 07-20-2011, 12:50 AM

BlackVeil, I've decided I would never want to do that. Kudos, and welcome.

Grausamkeit · 07-20-2011, 03:15 PM

Interesting stuff, thank you for sharing. The pic in my avatar is a model named 'Morticia Eve'. If you google her you will see more cool pictures.

I wanted to become a Forensic Pathologist at one time, but I'd be out of school around 50, I think, and starting off at base pay. Not an option at this point in life. I can agree with the fact that insides smell really gross and it's a hard smell to describe, for me. I used to work in a veterinary office and the operating room always stank of that 'inside' smell.

BlackVeil · 07-21-2011, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarrionCorpse

I am totally fascinated by you talking about this. Welcome!

Thanks for the welcome, everyone! I am glad some of my bits and pieces of my "life in the morgue" are interesting. I am happy to discuss. Nice being in a place where people enjoy hearing about it.

Most people in my life are like...umm, "stop talking about it, ewww, omg"

Even though I could not continue, I'll never forget...and my morbid curiosities will always be there.

BlackVeil · 07-21-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew Keaton

Goth is your attitude, your passion, your love... and a few items of black in the wardrobe help!

Black is my favorite color - in terms of clothing, but I wear normal clothes, but black is the prevalent color of choice for me.

Otherwise, I look like the typical girl. Blonde/Hazel, etc. My avatar is a piece of my face...so, just a girl

Bits and Pieces. (no pun intended)

BlackVeil · 07-21-2011, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ape descendant

I've always had an interest in anatomy, and had always wondered what it would be like to do what you've done. I am glad to have heard what you've had to say, and I look forward to more of your contributions here.

Thank you, AD.

Anatomy is an interesting thing, indeed. Too bad the smell wasn't so....impacting.