Petraeus vs. the Pastor

[CptSternn]

http://www.slate.com/id/2266404/

Why aren't politicians speaking out against the would-be Quran-burner who's endangering our troops?

Republicans are usually eager to trumpet their support for the troops and the war against terror. So why aren't they condemning the Florida pastor who plans to lead his congregation in a Quran-burning bonfire on Sept. 11?

Gen. David Petraeus, U.S. commander in Afghanistan, issued a statement on Sept. 6, warning that the pastor's action "could endanger our troops," feed the Taliban's propaganda machine, and "undermine the effort to accomplish the critical [war] mission."

Advance word of the burning has already sparked anti-American protests in Kabul, with more scheduled soon. Actual images of burning Qurans, Petraeus said, "would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan—and around the world—to inflame public opinion and incite violence," much like the photos of torture at Abu Ghraib.
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So where is John McCain, the ranking Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, who brandishes his war-hero credentials at every opportunity and, in the past, has rushed to condemn anyone who dares criticize Gen. Petraeus? Where is the second-ranking Republican, James Inhofe of Oklahoma, who also sits on the Foreign Relations Committee? Where is Saxby Chambliss, who loudly supports big-ticket weapons systems in the name of national security (and the jobs they sustain in his home state of Georgia) but has thus far said nothing to support our troops on this front?

The pastor who lit this conflagration—Terry Jones, head of the 50-member (yes, 50-member) Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Fla.—is quoted in today's Wall Street Journal as saying, "We understand the general's concerns. We are sure that his concerns are legitimate." But, he went on, "We must send a clear message to the radical element of Islam. We will no longer be controlled and dominated by their fears and threats."

And so, to send this message, Jones and his pathetic flock plan to burn the book regarded as holy by 1.5 billion Muslims, only a tiny percentage of whom sympathize with this "radical element," though no doubt his protest will boost those ranks at least a little.

It is appalling enough that a growing number of Americans, caught up in the pre-election backlash against mosques and Muslims generally, seem unaware that U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting not only against Muslims but also alongside them, and on behalf of governments led by Muslim parties. (Do they imagine, in their warped pictures of a holy war against Islam, that Nuri al-Maliki and Hamid Karzai are Christians?)

But U.S. senators know better (most of them anyway). So where are they? Whose side are they on? With the exception of Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, who appeared on Fox News to defend the right of American Muslims to build an Islamic community center two blocks from the World Trade Center site (on the conservative principle that owners of private property should be able to do as they please), elected Republicans—and, to be fair, most elected Democrats as well—have ducked and run.

In September 2007, the Senate voted 72-25 to condemn the anti-war group MoveOn.org for running a full-page newspaper ad that denounced Gen. Petraeus, then the U.S. commander in Iraq, as "General Betray Us."

If the senators want to show their genuine support for Petraeus (and not just indulge in an easy political stunt), they should denounce Terry Jones for endangering the troops and providing aid and comfort to the enemy—and, better still, send federal marshals to Gainesville, Fla., to help the local fire chief (who has ordered Jones not to burn the books) maintain public safety.

[CptSternn]

Reminds me a bit of what Olbermann said in regards to Park51. Aren't American troops supposedly in Iraq to bring them 'freedom'? Thats the tag line the right-wing continue to sell the American people. I guess 'freedom' to build a mosque where they want and the 'freedom' to avoid religious persecution in America are two 'freedoms' they have overlooked or weren't included in the original plans for bringing the Muslim world 'freedom'.

[Ben Lahnger]

I suspect that if bibles or American flags were being burned, we might hear more from them.

On the other hand, I have heard both conservative and liberal commentators state that the same constitutional rights that protect the rights of property owners to build an Islamic Community Center (not a Mosque) at Ground Zero also protect any citizens right to burn a Quran. They almost all go on to say that just because we have the right to do something doesn't mean we should do it. Mayor Bloomberg has made a similar statement: NYC mayor defends Pastor Terry Jones’ Quran-burning rally

Here are two final points, regarding you taking this opportunity to bash Republicans with an awful bit of political opportunism (and there are plenty of good things to bash Republicans with at this time that don't involve a firestorm debate about the exercise of free speech.

1) from "Burning the Koran is no way to tackle radical Islam" by Con Coughlin of the U.K. Telegraph (SOURCE):

"That is why Mrs Clinton’s forthright denunciation is so welcome. But what about Mr Obama? He was quick to justify the right of Muslims living in New York to build a mosque next to Ground Zero. But when it comes to protecting American service personnel fighting in defence of American liberty he appears strangely reticent."

2) from "Americans rallying against Qur’an burning" by Mitch Potter of The Toronto Star (SOURCE):

“What is most striking today is how effective a very small group can be in leveraging the media to get so much attention. This is a very tiny group. Let’s all remember that.”

[Ben Lahnger]

Also, just to add an actual news update (instead of quoting an opinion piece), here's some info from "Opposition to burning of Quran mounts" (SOURCE):

"The pastor also said he has received more than 100 death threats and now wears a .40-caliber pistol strapped to his hip. FBI agents have visited him to voice concerns for his safety, according to AP.

All the attention has caused other problems for Jones. He said he believes it's the reason his mortgage lender has demanded full payment of the $140,000 still owed on the church property.

He's seeking donations to cover it, but recently listed the property for sale with plans to move the church from Gainesville."

[KontanKarite]

There needs to be a counter protest of greater scale. It needs to send a peaceful message to the Muslim communities around the world that we, as Americans, do NOT support their statements. It needs to show them for what they are. A small handful of village idiots. It needs to show that more Americans are supportive of the idea of a peaceful coexistence.

[Ben Lahnger]

I really was thinking the same thing. I've read there are some positive protests of that type being organized, but what would be really great is if they could get one of those "million man" marches in support of people's right to peacefully practice the faith of their choice, including the Islamic faith.

[KontanKarite]

No shit. I think the best way to deal with them is to let them do their thing because it is well within their rights to do so. BUT, I also think that society as a whole should flank them on ALL sides promoting peace with hundreds.

For every single member of that display, there should be 100 people with the opposite message.

[Saya]

There is going to be an interfaith gathering the night before:

Other religious organizations have joined with U.S. Muslim groups to oppose the Quran-burning. The National Association of Evangelicals is urging the church to cancel the event, warning that it could cause worldwide tension between the two religions, and Christian, Muslim, Jewish and Hindu leaders in Gainesville have organized a "Gathering for Peace, Understanding and Hope" the night before the scheduled Quran burning.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/07/flo...ning/?hpt=Sbin

And I liked that CNN asked an Imam what he thought:

Commenting the other day on Jones' critique of Islam, Plemon el-Amin, the imam of an Atlanta, Georgia, mosque, said that his words are "really quite uninformed."
"But in America, there is the freedom to be ignorant," el-Amin said. "The only problem is in the world, many people don't understand that particular freedom. So what he is doing is like shouting fire in a theater, in a world theater, and people are upset."
El-Amin said Jones has boasted of never reading the Quran, so, "He doesn't know that he's going to burn a book that has some of the most beautiful passages about Christ Jesus throughout, as well as Moses, Abraham and all of the prophets he reads about and says he follows in the Bible." But he said the best strategy would be to ignore Jones, "like we do people on corners saying the end of the world is coming."

Even if the Republicans aren't saying much, its good to see that there does seem to be more support for religious acceptance, but thats the side that really needs to get louder.

[KontanKarite]

I think that's a good idea; the counter protest. I also think that the most championed leaders of the Republican party staying silent is also grounds for something positive.

If shown in the right light, it can be seen as a silent approval of those actions, further alienating them from the majority of the party they support by aligning them more with that much more extreme members of that party.

There are conservatives out there saying that the actions of this pastor and his people are a bad move and makes conservatives look bad. The leaders that say nothing against it, are going to be shown to silently condone those actions.

[CptSternn]

My thoughts exactly.

Staying silent when there is world-wide media attention on the issue does make you look compliant and supportive of such actions, which is sad because it would appear they are trying to appeal to the very wack-jobs who would support this sort of thing.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I think that's a good idea; the counter protest. I also think that the most championed leaders of the Republican party staying silent is also grounds for something positive.

If shown in the right light, it can be seen as a silent approval of those actions, further alienating them from the majority of the party they support by aligning them more with that much more extreme members of that party.

There are conservatives out there saying that the actions of this pastor and his people are a bad move and makes conservatives look bad. The leaders that say nothing against it, are going to be shown to silently condone those actions.

I'm beginning to think there are too many Democratic leaders who are silent as well for that to be an effective strategy.

And then Republican Congressman Ron Paul issued a statement. (SOURCE)

Ron Paul: End the Wars, Stop Blaming Islam for 9/11

A professed Christian pastor in Gainesville, Florida, Terry Jones, plans to burn copies of the Quran on 9/11. He indicts all Islam for 9/11 and argues that it is a hate-driven religion. He’s convinced he’s on God’s side even though he is getting little support from other Christians, who believe that Jesus is the Prince of Peace.

General David Petraeus, our military commander in Afghanistan, strongly condemned Mr. Jones’ plan, arguing it would be provocative, make his fight against the Taliban in Afghanistan more difficult and further jeopardize the lives of American soldiers.

I agree! This blame of all Muslims for the atrocities of 9/11 only makes things worse — especially since it wasn’t the Taliban of Afghanistan that committed the atrocities on 9/11. Under Jones’ warped logic, we should have attacked Saudi Arabia since 15 of the 19 suicide bombers came from that country.

But while I am pleased to see General Petraeus recognize the danger of one type of incitement, he unfortunately fails to see the whole picture and understand that our policies of torture, targeted assassination, invasion of Muslim countries and unintended infliction of civilian casualties in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan are also provocative. Pictures of victims of torture as well as innocent people killed by drones and stray bombs are every bit as bad as burning the Quran.

In some ways, what Jones is doing may be minor compared to the resentment toward us as a consequence of what our government has done to thousands of innocent victims.

As I have said time and time again, Osama bin Laden wins by ‘proving’ that America is an enemy of Islam and has an occupation agenda in the Middle East. And, we continue to walk into his trap and hand him up his best recruitment tool in his efforts to provoke hatred and terrorism against the United States.

If we don’t want to incite radical Islamists, we need to stop these un-needed wars. It is high time we came to our senses, brought our troops home to defend our country and pursued a Constitutional, Pro-American foreign policy.

I'm afraid that actually will resonate with some Americans ... and not just the Right Wing Conservatives. *sigh*

Sarah Palin made a statement: Palin: Koran burning is 'unnecessary provocation'

Republican Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour made a statement: Gov. Barbour: No Excuse for Koran Burning; Stirring up Anti-Muslim Sentiments a ‘Distraction’ for GOP

Also, it's worthy of note that while I previously mentioned President Obama's glaring silence in the matter, he made a strong statement on ABC News' Good Morning America program this morning. Unfortunately, this probably serves to diffuse any points people were thinking of making about Republican's being late to make their statements.

Obama Condemns Plan to Burn Koran

[Lady Sorrow]

im so glad you started this, if i didnt see this i was going to start one. so i all i have to say for now is.... what the FUCK is wrong with this pastor????

[Despanan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/us...a.html?_r=1&hp

Looks like they aren't going to do it.

Which is awesome.

Also:

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin's Facebook

"People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation -- much like building a mosque at Ground Zero,"

What a goddamn cunt.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Looks like they aren't going to do it.

I only read the first two lines of this story earlier (different source) and it made it sound like the Islamic centre was being moved. Nice to see that isn't the case. Hopefully they won't trying claiming that the centre's organisers broke a promise or something after they meet.

[Ben Lahnger]

Despanan, same article:

In fact, later in the day Mr. Jones said he was rethinking his decision to cancel the burning, saying he was lied to, The Associated Press reported.

[Saya]

Probably will, the guy is NUTS. I dunno how reputable this German news website is, but apparently he got kicked out of his German church by his own clergy:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...716409,00.html

And yes, Palin is a cunt. I'm usually all for not using sexualized words to discredit other women, but what a fucking whore.

And I know part of the concern of it going ahead was that Muslims in Afghanistan or Iraq would attack more soldiers, but honestly, I'm far more concerned by how far fanatic Christians are going to go. Not really by this, but there has been more talk of mosques and Muslims alike being attacked, people should be really more afraid of the fanatics in the local church than a mosque in another state.

[CptSternn]

The right-wing haven't been denouncing the act as much as they have been using is as a PR tool.

The Daily Show did a bit on this yesterday that was brilliant.

All of the repubs on faux news saying 'this is horrible, just like the Muslims building the Mosque @ ground zero, its very inappropriate'

They couldn't resist taking this and putting a positive right-wing spin on it, and attacking Muslims at the same time.

[Lady Sorrow]

so, if i read correctely, both the burning of the muslum holy book and the mosque building arent going to happen?

i really hope not.

musliums dont deserve to have their holy book, hell or even their religon, disrespected like that. just as ground zero shouldnt be rebulit upon. its just wrong in both cases.

[viscus]

Originally Posted by Lady Sorrow

so, if i read correctely, both the burning of the muslum holy book and the mosque building arent going to happen?

i really hope not.

musliums dont deserve to have their holy book, hell or even their religon, disrespected like that. just as ground zero shouldnt be rebulit upon. its just wrong in both cases.

It's not a mosque, it's the Muslim equivalent of a YMCA, it won't be at Ground Zero but two blocks away, and it's still going to be built. There's no reason why it shouldn't be.

[KontanKarite]

Dude, two blocks is a pretty long way away. It's not even ground zero to begin with.

[Saya]

There's a strip club the same distance away. There's no sacred radius.

[KontanKarite]

Besides, they've been drawing up plans to build another WTC there.

Man, this may actually sound a little libertarian of me, but if someone had the funds to buy or own ground zero, I say they could build whatever they wanted on it.

[Despanan]

'Libertarian'? I always thought you sounded like 'Liberace'.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Lady Sorrow

musliums dont deserve to have their holy book, hell or even their religon, disrespected like that.

Originally Posted by viscus

It's not a mosque, it's the Muslim equivalent of a YMCA, it won't be at Ground Zero but two blocks away, and it's still going to be built. There's no reason why it shouldn't be.

No reason at all ... unless you disrespect the Muslim faith.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

No reason at all ... unless you disrespect the Muslim faith.

Or are looking to win political clout with evangelicals and ultra-conservatives who DO hate Muslims.

Lets face it, the property was bought last year, and plans to build have been in the work for months. The only reason this is an issue is because the Republicans are looking to fire-up their base and make the Democrats look limp-dicked right before midterm elections.

If Democrats speak up in favor of Park51, Republicans can spin it as "Obama being soft on/in favor of terrorism" and if they don't say anything they look like weaklings.

If they side with the Republicans in denoucing it, they alienate their own base.

It's the perfect election strategy: Fan the flames of hatred in order to scare people into voting conservative, who cares about the people who get hurt? Red States will be back on top!