Viewpoints on atheism and a supernatural being (and/or Beings, Aliens, and Santa)

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

I sometimes thought to myself, "do I want to be in the same religion as this assface?"

There are allot of assfaces in the world.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Yeah, I'm familiar with that, but I've always seen the realms as metaphorical rather than physical. It's also accepted doctrine that a bohdisattva can come back as anything: a person, a place, a work of art, and yes a plant. I suppose it's not a common occurrence, but if you follow the infinite universe logic, it's rather likely you've chowed down on one of those dudes in a previous life (if not this one).

Probably, I also probably did something incredibly douchey too but the point is in the here in now, do I have to do something douchey? Would it be better if I didn't? I have no way of knowing, I only have what I am now. But probably, the people I'm talking to have done me a great and wonderful kindness to me in a past life and thats why we're speaking now, perhaps I should make an effort to be nice (I will now accept hypocrite award of the year now there's knowing it and then there's living it)

Plus there's the whole story where the buddha found the starving lioness and her cubs, and offered himself to her. When she couldn't eat he tore himself apart and fed himself to her. In their next incarnations they came back as his closest followers. Now granted that's a special case (buddha's don't accrue karma),

It is a karma story because this was before Buddha was Buddha, he accrued great merit for sacrificing his life to save another. There's another one where he's a bunny and all he has to give is his flesh, so he vows to give it to someone who needs it. Vishnu hears this and comes down as a beggar to test his sincerity. He builds a fire and instructs Bunny Buddha to jump in, and Bunny Buddha does. Instead of burning Vishnu saves him and touched by his sacrifice, puts a picture of a bunny on the moon. There's another one where he's an antelope who fools a hunter in giving himself away, because antelope are wise and live innocently and peacefully instead of killing others. These stories are to show how Buddha accrued enough good karma and merit to become a Buddha.

but if you follow the idea behind the doctrine of nothingness, that there is no self, and the entire universe is "one" then what precisely are the plants, and rocks and sky? they're certainly not separate from the cycle of existence, so WTF?

If we are all the same, then where do you end and I begin? Everything is a manifestation of the Tao, Ultimate Reality, Universe, what have you, we are not one but we are not two. Seung Sahn had a more accurate and better way of explaining it but it also is kinda complicated and I'm really too tired to wrap my head around it right now so I'm going to go with a more simple analogy. If the Tao is an ocean, we are its waves. Some waves are big, some are small, some are beautiful, some are ugly, some have longer "lives" than others, some are sentient, all are impermanent and all "die". They are all individuals, but all contain water. Yeah, we're the same, but we're also different. What's good for one manifestation isn't always good for another, we wouldn't get very far if we said rocks were equal to humans, or treated other humans like we do pet dogs. So, there's particular emphasis on being kind and not harming sentient beings, we are both a kind of wave that plants and minerals are not, although I am currently picking at an anthology about Buddhism and environmentalism and there certainly is a case to be had to be kind to inanimate things as well, out of love for the planet at large.

Part of Seung Sahn's explanation is that when you first look at phenomenon, like mountains and trees, all you see are mountains and trees. When you look deeper, you see that mountains are not mountains and trees are not trees. Mountains are trees and trees are mountains. Upon realization, mountains become mountains again and trees are trees again. Since I'm not enlightened I can't verify that, but it does make sense to me that enlightened people can appreciate the singularly of everything and the uniqueness of everything at the same time, and not just on an intellectual level like we novices are discussing now.

I can understand the thinking behind not harming sentient life, and certainly there is allot to be said about having that as a general outlook, but again, context is important. Killing and eating out of necessity is different than killing out of malice, and while I'm sure there are those who disagree with me, mindfulness is far more important than restricting one's diet.

Generally it is accepted that there are no sins, just skillful and unskillful actions. If you kill animals just because, and there's other options, then you can consider that unskillful. If your life depends on it, its an entirely different situation, although there's still skillful and unskillful things of going about it. I don't think that taking veal, which you know is one of the most inhumane forms of meat, when there is a veggie option is particularly skillful.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Yeah...you're looking at the story in the wrong context.

His discovery of Buddahood (if you believe in the religion) was arguably MUCH more valuable than if he spent his entire life helping the prolitariate, and it wasn't uncommon for people to become wandering Aesthetics in that day and age.

And as Saya said, his family became followers later.

I'm rather curious, couldn't he have found enlightenment helping other people and improving their lives? Or does enlightenment have to come before one feels that it is even important?

[Hearts_Purple]

Originally Posted by Despanan

There are allot of assfaces in the world.

This is true and one of the reasons I don't discount people's religions based on the actions of a few dumbasses.

[Ben Lahnger]

I do not have a chosen religion. All organized religions have the shortcoming of being "organized" by groups of humans. Most religions have parts that I admire, but I have yet to find one that I can wholeheartedly accept in its entirety.

I have a credo.

FIRST, DO NO HARM.

DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.

ENDEAVOR TO MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE. IF YOU CAN FIND A WAY TO MAKE A LIVING DOING THIS, IT WILL MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER.

LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES, CORRECT THEM AS BEST YOU CAN, AND TRY NOT TO REPEAT THEM.

That's it. Do I always walk the talk? No, more's the pity. But this credo is serving as a better road map than anything else I've encountered in my life.

[Despanan]

Ben: Good advice.

Originally Posted by ape descendant

I'm rather curious, couldn't he have found enlightenment helping other people and improving their lives? Or does enlightenment have to come before one feels that it is even important?

Coming to enlightenment is utterly separate from helping people.

You can become enlightened while helping people, but you can also become enlightened while painting a picture, or butchering an ox, or banging a chick.

Enlightenement is not a state of moral excellence, it's when you percieve the universe as it truly is and thus become exempt from the natural laws of Karma.

Thus when you die, you are no longer reborn (unless you choose to be in order to guide others to enlightenment). Nirvana is not some "heaven" it's a cooling, a seperation from the wheel of existence.

Helping people, doing good deeds, and being kind acrue good karma for you (which helps to ensue you are reborn in a higher form) Hurting people, and being a greedy vicious cunt brings bad karma which will cause you to be reborn in a lower state.

Buddha's don't have karma, and don't recite sutras. They're a wholly "other" state of existence.

[ape descendant]

So its pretty much "different strokes for different folks".

I can dig it.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

So its pretty much "different strokes for different folks".

*facepalm*

[PortraitOfSanity]

*strokes it*

*facepalms Despanen*

MUA HA HA HA!

*runs away cackling*

Yea Ape, you need to stop talking. You're digging yourself a really deep hole.

[Despanan]

Okay...let me see if I can put this in terms you can understand.

Imagine you and a bunch of people are chained to a wheel and pushing it Conan Style. Your eyes are sewn shut and you can't see the room around you.

You can be nice to the other people pushing the wheel, and maybe you can be the best damn wheel-pusher around, and so you get promoted/stronger and pushing the wheel gets a little easier but you're still chained to a misery wheel. A buddha is someone who figured out how to slip out of the chains, remove the stitches from his eyes, and turn on the light.

As you can see, being super-nice to someone else on the wheel or figuring out how best to push it is less important than getting people off of it. arguably, you can figure out how to slip out of the chains at any time.

Buddhists are people who have found what they think is generally the best way to go about slipping out of the chains, based upon the teachings of that dude who did it the first time.

[voodoowitchdr]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Okay...let me see if I can put this in terms you can understand.

Imagine you and a bunch of people are chained to a wheel and pushing it Conan Style. Your eyes are sewn shut and you can't see the room around you.

You can be nice to the other people pushing the wheel, and maybe you can be the best damn wheel-pusher around, and so you get promoted/stronger and pushing the wheel gets a little easier but you're still chained to a misery wheel. A buddha is someone who figured out how to slip out of the chains, remove the stitches from his eyes, and turn on the light.

As you can see, being super-nice to someone else on the wheel is less important than figuring out how best to push it. But, arguably, you can figure out how to slip out of the chains at any time.

Buddhists are people who have found what they think is generally the best way to go about slipping out of the chains, based upon the teachings of that dude who did it the first time.

For mentioning Conan, you get a banana sticker!

[ape descendant]

I understand karma Des, I was, just unfamiliar with the process of enlightenment according to Buddhism.

... and I was looking for an excuse to use the word "stroke" in conversation...

[PortraitOfSanity]

Um... Isn't that a bit like saying "I know about the bible, I was just unfamiliar with the concept of how Jesus' crucifixion was important"?

[ape descendant]

Not really, as the idea of karma isn't unique to Buddhism.

[PortraitOfSanity]

No, but it's one of the core beliefs... And you were talking about enlightenment, which is even more important to Buddhism than Karma. And nothing in any religion is unique, in case you haven't noticed.

[Saya]

It gets a little more in depth about that, Mahayana Buddhism accepts the existence of bodhisattvas, too. In many Mahayana traditions Buddhists vow that they will not enter nirvana, they will achieve enlightenment and awakening but they vow to be reborn over and over and over so that they can save all beings. Thats what the Dalai Lama is supposed to be, the reincarnation of the bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara. Mahayana does stress loving and caring for all beings, but in Theravada, its not necessarily essential.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

No, but it's one of the core beliefs... And you were talking about enlightenment, which is even more important to Buddhism than Karma. And nothing in any religion is unique, in case you haven't noticed.

Yes, I have noticed. I just didn't really study Buddhism... I had spent my time looking into christian, greco-roman, norse and celtic mythology.

*********

Thank you Saya for being kind enough to sincerely answer the gist of my questions.

[Despanan]

...yet you have a buddhist proverb in your sig.

Why would you put that there if you don't even know what it means?

[Sinjob]

..Maybe that saying's intended as backlash?

[Hearts_Purple]

I thought it was a quote from that comic 'Lone Wolf & Cub'.

[Despanan]

It may have been in it but it's part of an OLD saying. I think it originated from Bodhidharma, unless I'm mistaken.

[Sinjob]

Pfft. Poseur.

[Saya]

Linji said it first, then everyone paraphrased.

[Alan]

I thought it was from Dan Simmons.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Despanan

...yet you have a buddhist proverb in your sig.

Why would you put that there if you don't even know what it means?

What makes you think I don't know what it means, to me at least. It certainly has special meaning to me right along with "I'd give my right eye...".