Stop and Frisk [NYPD]

[Despanan]

So, in case anyone hasn't seen this:

http://www.thenation.com/article/170...ing-mutt-video

I've talked a little bit about Stop and Frisk. Other people have on here as well. It's one of the issue's I and other members of Occupy have been active on, not to mention many other activist groups here in NYC.

It's a really horrible policy.

I, do not, have a high opinion of the NYPD, I've made this clear a few times. I've seen them violate people's rights on numerous occasions, I've seen them beat people so badly they've wound up in the hospital. They've personally kneed me in the spine and thrown me into a motorcycle.

So, a teenager who had been stopped multiple times finally recorded it.

The video is...extremely upsetting. Seriously, be very careful watching it even if this isn't a hot-button issue for you, even if you don't consider yourself sensitive...yeah, it's pretty bad.

I kinda just feel like shit now. So I thought I'd share it. anyway, you can read the article which details it, watch the video at your own risk.

This really needs to end.

[Jonathan]

Clearly terrible. Having / allowing this should cost the city big.

[Despanan]

Jesus Christ, I recognize the street in that video. They did that in my FUCKING NEIGHBORHOOD.

I'm sorry, I...I know it goes on. I've seen it go on. I've talked to people it happens to. OF COURSE it never happens to me (though it came close in Charlotte).

That video is really upsetting.

[BourbonBoy]

It's beyond upsetting. The video is fucking infuriating. I'm actually at a loss for words after watching the video. I hope something can be done sooner or later because, seriously, WTF?

[Miss Absynthe]

Well fuck me.

[Versus]

I empathize with the police officers, too. I'm glad they gave their testimonials because I'm afraid that what they say has more weight then the victims. It's the same situation in the army.

[BourbonBoy]

So do I. I really hope someone can figure out who can be contacted to put a stop to the kind of shit you'd expect from a tin pot dictator. Just, fucking hell I'm still pissed off from watching the video hours ago

[Versus]

Oh, I remember a while ago I saw an article about an organization that was created by border patrol officers who were fired for "displaying sympathy" towards immigrants. Hmmm.

[BourbonBoy]

Link please? As strange as it sounds, I wouldn't be surprised how the subject was documented

[ape descendant]

Fuck I knew opening this shit up would launch me into an impotent rage. I don't want to live on this planet any more.

[OverCaffeinated]

So, the long and the short of it is, that if I am in New York and the cops stop me, I'd better bow and cower down, eyes averted, simpering and whining like a beaten cur, or the guys in black uniforms with guns and clubs and devices to electrocute me and armor and a "badge that makes it ok" will capture me and then beat me into a bloody soup.

This is bullshit. And so many wonder why we stand on the right to bear arms in Nevada. We may have cops, even power tripping cops, but every one of them realizes ANYONE could be just as well armed as they are, and that it is completely right and legal for it to be that way.

I wonder if anyone has done a study relating gun ownership statistics to police violence statistics for an area.

I think it makes for just a tad more respect.

Yes, I just opened that can of worms.

[Miss Absynthe]

So much wrong.. I just can't even...

[Versus]

Welcome to the United States, ma'am. It's a mythical place where the uneducated think that going out strapped is a way to avoid being harassed by the cops.

[OverCaffeinated]

So I'm uneducated. What's your point? I must be wrong because I don't share your viewpoint?

I don't obviously carry, it's not about that. It's about the psychological effect of an armed populace on an authoritarian body. It's the reason the second amendment was added.

If the police want to act this way, and their actions are supported by your government, and your government no longer listens to what you want, (you obviously all disagree with the police behavior and the ideas behind that behavior, yes?) what power do you have, fundamentally, to protect yourselves from it?


How are you not powerless when they out arm you both legally and literally? That kid was powerless. I hope his voice is enough, I hope all the voices are enough, but they haven't been so far.

I know I don't like cops. I also know that in my state, when I get pulled over, it starts with "Hello, I'm Officer So-and-so with the XYZ Law Enforcement Agency. May I see your license and registration?" instead of what that kid dealt with.

You can make fun of me for being uneducated, redneck, use whatever cultural stereotype you like, it doesn't change the fact that in my state cops always expect citizens to be armed, whether they are or not, and behave accordingly, being firm, but polite and respectful as well.

This doesn't mean we don't have bad cops, we do, I just don't think there are as many initially willing to act like that to people.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by BourbonBoy

Link please? As strange as it sounds, I wouldn't be surprised how the subject was documented

This isn't what I originally found months ago, but yeah...

http://www.borderexplorer.org/2011/0...order.html?m=1

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/03/us...anted=all&_r=0

Also, don't read the comments.

[Miss Absynthe]

I thought that the history of the second amendment was based on the US not having a standing army and therefore needing a militia made up of citizens?

[BourbonBoy]

Originally Posted by Versus

This isn't what I originally found months ago, but yeah...

http://www.borderexplorer.org/2011/0...order.html?m=1

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/03/us...anted=all&_r=0

Also, don't read the comments.

That really isn't surprising that's going on across the country. When I worked security at a local store after one of my coworkers was mugged in the parking lot we had a couple cops as extra security for a few days and they mentioned they thought throwing people in jail for a few grams of marijuana was total crap.

Not to mention they were royally pissed they couldn't speak out about it, 'less they lose their job or get sent to some of the worse neighborhoods in the city.

[Versus]

OverCaffeinated, you are uneducated because you assume that your experience is the same for everybody. It's not.

Committee/Report Name: The Nevada Supreme Court established the Task Force for the Study of Racial and Economic Bias in the Justice System December 30, 1992. The final report was published June 16, 1997. (KFN1110.5 .A3 N4 1997)

Findings
*
1.** There exists in the State of Nevada disparate treatment of whites and non-whites and particularly as it pertains to the quality and access to justice.

http://www.ncsconline.org/projects_i...EFI/NV1REB.htm

http://www.lvrj.com/news/deadly-force/always-justified

[Versus]

The NYPD doesn't treat these people like shit because they expect them to be unarmed. They specifically target minorities like this, and it's the same across the country and that doesn't change with relaxed gun laws. Understand?

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

So, the long and the short of it is, that if I am in New York and the cops stop me, I'd better bow and cower down, eyes averted, simpering and whining like a beaten cur, or the guys in black uniforms with guns and clubs and devices to electrocute me and armor and a "badge that makes it ok" will capture me and then beat me into a bloody soup.

This is bullshit. And so many wonder why we stand on the right to bear arms in Nevada. We may have cops, even power tripping cops, but every one of them realizes ANYONE could be just as well armed as they are, and that it is completely right and legal for it to be that way.

I wonder if anyone has done a study relating gun ownership statistics to police violence statistics for an area.

I think it makes for just a tad more respect.

Yes, I just opened that can of worms.

For the record, if you tried to use a gun against the NYPD they would murder you and probably everyone around you.

No, seriously, in the past few months they shot a guy armed with a knife dead at times square. They shot and killed a veteran who was giving some friends a ride home because he reached under the seat to retrieve an electric drill. They shot and killed a guy who had just killed his boss with a firearm at the empire state building and then shot nine other people who just happened to be standing there.

Opposing them with a concealed firearm would be CHRISTMAS for Ray Kelly and Bloomberg. The whole reason they started Stop and Frisk was to crackdown on illegal guns.

So no, a concealed carry law would not be a good idea is what I'm saying.

[Versus]

Also, I thought of this when he recounted an experience being pulled over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFHpv...e_gdata_player

[Despanan]

I like when he hits the microphone on the stand.

[OverCaffeinated]

First of all, I didn't bring race into this. Racism is horrible, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it does, in varying degrees, just about everywhere. Secondly, why are you assuming I'm male? Third, why are you assuming I am projecting my experience onto that of everyone?

I realize that there is no way I can fully understand the situation of someone discriminated against in ways I have not been, or understand fully what it is to live in a city like New York. I can only see the world through my own experience, as any human can, and try to imagine what it must be like for other people.

I never said I or anyone else should pull a gun on any member of the NYPD or any other law enforcement establishment. What I was trying to spotlight was a difference in the perception of a police officer of people legally, rightfully armed vs. those they feel they have the right and ability to dominate because they know that they are either unarmed or if they are, it is illegal thus giving the cop a reason to do what they do.

Does a bully pick on somebody his own size? Or does he pick on those he feels are weaker than he? What leads to that perception of weakness?


Why disarm a people if not to defeat them? If you bring up that it's safer, that it prevents some violence, or any other reason, you are saying that people do not own their own sovreignity, they are not smart enough to protect themselves, or need the state to protect them from themselves. These are the decisions parents make for children, and they are not the decisions you or anyone else have the right to make for free people.

On the second amendment point brought up by Miss Absynthe, I am not going to debate the personal right to bear arms perspective with that of the militia definition, although I am aware of it. Semantics and intent of the founders could be debated until we are both blue in the face. I would ask that you think of the reasons why a standing army was thought to be a bad idea and an armed citizens militia a good one. It is the same reason it would be a bad idea for the US military to take over policing or a universal federal police force to be created. As the base of it, if people are not armed and other organizations are, the other organizations have the power. All the words in the world won't stop a bullet, or a cage. Intent shown by words and backed up by action CAN. Ability to act is supported by tools, only one of which is armament.

The cops are supposed to work for us, not enforce rule of a separate entity. It is our job, through voting and by proxy, to rule our nation, our states, our counties and cities. THEY are supposed to do what WE tell them, and that is a universal we, of every race, creed, color, sex or other defining characteristic.

As a nation, when we lose sight of that, and neuter our ability to control our government, or their enforcers, we become slaves. When the law no longer serves the people but oppresses them, It is no longer true, no longer right. This is a principle that works at every level of government, from a town council to Congress.


Every time we sacrifice a right, a freedom, for some imagined safety, we enslave ourselves. We submit, we bow down.



I believe we agree that the behavior of those police officers was unconscionable. I see one among a myriad of reasons why that bullying behavior may rise, why it comes out. What reasons do you see? What solutions, cultural shifts, answers or reasons do you see? If there is a better way, I am all ears. If your protests and rallies and youtube videos help, I support that.

I want freedom for everyone, bound only by the line crossed when that freedom hurts another.

I think perhaps you are putting a whole set of perceptions about a culture you imagine me to spring from on top of the words I post. maybe you should be a little more open minded.

Violence of any kind is a last resort. But, it IS a resort, if there is no other way.




.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

First of all, I didn't bring race into this. Racism is horrible, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it does, in varying degrees, just about everywhere. Secondly, why are you assuming I'm male? Third, why are you assuming I am projecting my experience onto that of everyone?

First of all, the fact that you didn't see the racism in this speaks to your own level of privilege.

Secondly, my guess is that the assumption that you're male is borne from hearing the unchecked privilege with which you view things. Maybe people misinterpreted what privilege you hold.. but it's still there.

Third, well.. I'll let you answer that point yourself -

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

I realize that there is no way I can fully understand the situation of someone discriminated against in ways I have not been, or understand fully what it is to live in a city like New York. I can only see the world through my own experience, as any human can, and try to imagine what it must be like for other people.

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

On the second amendment point brought up by Miss Absynthe, I am not going to debate the personal right to bear arms perspective with that of the militia definition, although I am aware of it. Semantics and intent of the founders could be debated until we are both blue in the face.

Seeing as you're relying on a written document to support your argument, it would seem to me that it is vital to look at the semantics and the intent with which it was written.

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

I would ask that you think of the reasons why a standing army was thought to be a bad idea and an armed citizens militia a good one. It is the same reason it would be a bad idea for the US military to take over policing or a universal federal police force to be created. As the base of it, if people are not armed and other organizations are, the other organizations have the power. All the words in the world won't stop a bullet, or a cage. Intent shown by words and backed up by action CAN. Ability to act is supported by tools, only one of which is armament.

Honestly, I'm just guessing at the reasons a standing army was thought a poor idea because I'm not a constitutional scholar.. but I'm guessing it had something to do with the idea of an army being used by a dictator?

Guns don't equate power. Do you honestly believe that someone who carries a gun has more power when confronted by police than someone without a gun? Power isn't something that is possessed.. it is something that is exercised.

I'm unsure what you mean by 'universal federal police force'

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

The cops are supposed to work for us, not enforce rule of a separate entity. It is our job, through voting and by proxy, to rule our nation, our states, our counties and cities. THEY are supposed to do what WE tell them, and that is a universal we, of every race, creed, color, sex or other defining characteristic.

Aww.. bless. That is so sweet.

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

As a nation, when we lose sight of that, and neuter our ability to control our government, or their enforcers, we become slaves. When the law no longer serves the people but oppresses them, It is no longer true, no longer right. This is a principle that works at every level of government, from a town council to Congress.

Privilege check, please.

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

I think perhaps you are putting a whole set of perceptions about a culture you imagine me to spring from on top of the words I post. maybe you should be a little more open minded.

Or, you are putting across certain ideas about yourself by the way that you speak on this topic, as well as the things that you say...

[Versus]

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

First of all, I didn't bring race into this.

I understand that. It doesn't change that stop and frisk is a racial issue and it is already about race. Specifically, one that is echoed across the country. Despanan posted this both because it is a rights violation and because it is practiced almost exclusively on minorities. Nobody directly mentioned that because it's readily apparent. What do you think Despanan meant when he said this? And why did you not see it?

Originally Posted by Despanan

I'm sorry, I...I know it goes on. I've seen it go on. I've talked to people it happens to. OF COURSE it never happens to me (though it came close in Charlotte).

Secondly, why are you assuming I'm male?

Patriarchy.

Third, why are you assuming I am projecting my experience onto that of everyone?

I'm not assuming because you did project your experience. Here, I'll show you:

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

I wonder if anyone has done a study relating gun ownership statistics to police violence statistics for an area.

I think it makes for just a tad more respect.

1) This obviously isn't based in reality. It's disconnected from the countless instances of harassment and violence that occur between police and the public every year across the country.

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

I know I don't like cops. I also know that in my state, when I get pulled over, it starts with "Hello, I'm Officer So-and-so with the XYZ Law Enforcement Agency. May I see your license and registration?" instead of what that kid dealt with.

Originally Posted by OverCaffeinated

in my state cops always expect citizens to be armed, whether they are or not, and behave accordingly, being firm, but polite and respectful as well.

2) You relate what it's like to be pulled over for you and then immediately apply that to the police across the state of Nevada.

This doesn't mean we don't have bad cops, we do, I just don't think there are as many initially willing to act like that to people.

3) And draw a conclusion based exclusively from it. I want you to think about something: How does being a white woman effect the cops' perception and treatment of you?

What I was trying to spotlight was a difference in the perception of a police officer of people legally, rightfully armed vs. those they feel they have the right and ability to dominate because they know that they are either unarmed or if they are, it is illegal thus giving the cop a reason to do what they do.

What difference? You mean the only excuse that the police need to put a bullet in my head and the one that they say hundreds of times a year when an unarmed minority is gunned down without public backlash? I don't need you to highlight what that difference is for some people, honestly.

Why disarm a people if not to defeat them? If you bring up that it's safer, that it prevents some violence, or any other reason, you are saying that people do not own their own sovreignity, they are not smart enough to protect themselves, or need the state to protect them from themselves. These are the decisions parents make for children, and they are not the decisions you or anyone else have the right to make for free people.

On the second amendment point brought up by Miss Absynthe, I am not going to debate the personal right to bear arms perspective with that of the militia definition, although I am aware of it. Semantics and intent of the founders could be debated until we are both blue in the face. I would ask that you think of the reasons why a standing army was thought to be a bad idea and an armed citizens militia a good one. It is the same reason it would be a bad idea for the US military to take over policing or a universal federal police force to be created. As the base of it, if people are not armed and other organizations are, the other organizations have the power. All the words in the world won't stop a bullet, or a cage. Intent shown by words and backed up by action CAN. Ability to act is supported by tools, only one of which is armament.

The cops are supposed to work for us, not enforce rule of a separate entity. It is our job, through voting and by proxy, to rule our nation, our states, our counties and cities. THEY are supposed to do what WE tell them, and that is a universal we, of every race, creed, color, sex or other defining characteristic.

As a nation, when we lose sight of that, and neuter our ability to control our government, or their enforcers, we become slaves. When the law no longer serves the people but oppresses them, It is no longer true, no longer right. This is a principle that works at every level of government, from a town council to Congress.

Every time we sacrifice a right, a freedom, for some imagined safety, we enslave ourselves. We submit, we bow down.

You're a little out there, but I can link you to the related threads if you really want to get into this.

I think perhaps you are putting a whole set of perceptions about a culture you imagine me to spring from on top of the words I post. maybe you should be a little more open minded.

What are my perceptions, exactly?

Violence of any kind is a last resort. But, it IS a resort, if there is no other way.

And what is your experience with violence?