The French Government bans Muslim woman from wearing the veil

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Despanan

To be fair to Kontan, Judism is a race AND a religion. I could convert to Judism and be a white Jew, you could convert and be a Mexican Jew. Islam is similar in this regard (though not quite as confined to a single ethnicity).

No in fact that explains why Kontan is wrong.
You can be a white Jew, but not Jewish. You can be a white Muslim, but not Arab. What Kontan is doing is saying they can be accounted for the same because they overlap.
I'm agreeing that it's racism, but he can't just say that it's 'analogous to antisemitism'. That's oversimplifying it to the point where it's downright wrong.

[Versus]

It isn't comparable. The Chinese have a one child limit, and yes men have it better there but thats the same as anywhere else. I know my parents kept having kids until they got a son, it isn't an exotic concept, you'd see the same thing happening here I bet if there was a one child limit. This doesn't compare to polygamy, and multiple wives/servants being a form of conscientious consumerism. Also, in China, children are expected to take care of their parents in old age, and sons are better equipped to do this, as women traditionally care for their inlaws, not their biological parents. It is in their self interest to have sons, and now they only got one chance.

I think you're right about. While they both have their importance, they are for vastly different reasons.

What does that have to do with the niqab and how it pertains to how women are treated? And yes, not every Muslim country is middle eastern, that would include much of Africa and Asia where polygamy can be pretty common for more cultural reasons than religious, and you're not taking into account that more and more Arabs and Persians in Iran are putting off marriage as economic conditions improve, and even in Iran you can't take a second wife without the permission of the first, never mind how you have to prove you can support more than one wife, and need to want to get married. There was outrage a year or two ago I remember in Iran that imams were mad that marriage was being delayed and pressured young people to do so. And to say nothing of temporary marriages! What point you're trying to make with that can't be made unless you account for a myriad of variables unique to each Muslim country. Careful there, you're trying to explain the rationality of a billion people who argue with each other over such things fairly often.

Nothing. My point was that it is generally very unflattering to women who wear them. I added that bit about polygamy as an example of a reason why it is so unflattering. You said "Polygamy is really rare." I thought you were saying "Polygamy has nothing to do with it because it's so rare."

And I don't even know where you're going with that. Do some Muslim countries treat women like property? Absolutely, but not all and its not exactly the point of the niqab. The reasons for wearing religious attire can be extremely personal. Yes it prevents you from being sexualized, but its also a pretty big statement about your dedication to your culture and religion should you chose to wear it in a Western country.

I know that it's not the entire point. Actually, I think it's kind of elegant in a manly alien sort of way.

I apologize for not explaining further. I was very wrapped up in the abortion thread.

Not even all people in any given Muslim country treat women like property, even if "the country does." Even polygamous men can genuinely love all their wives.
North Americans express a similar thing by having an affair. Humans are not wholy monogamous, no matter what the laws say. We have evolved to be a little bit polygamous.

I laughed pretty hard at this. I just realized I sounded like "THEY ALL CARE NOTHING ABOUT THEIR WOMEN." I remember seeing a lot of loving marriages that just had the illusion of oppression, as well. That's just their culture, you know?

I know very well I would not be looked at with desire. That's not my desire. I am interested in experiencing wearing a niqab for myself. I have seen a couple women wearing them, and it piqued my curiosity - at least partly because of my own reaction, which was one of surprise and a bit of awkwardness.

I know that wasn't your intention. I was trying to make a joke.

I think you should try it, though. It would be an interesting social experiment at the very least. It upsets me that so many people in western cultures have a very minute awareness of how things really are.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Alan

Bleed, you don't see people hating on asian muslims, do you? The Muslim hatred is merely idiotic racism against the ARAB WORLD masquerading as a genuine concern for a "dangerous religion"

This basically, Alan. That's pretty much what I meant. I mean, when I hear Muslim, yeah, I think brown dude with a big fuck off man beard and probably a turban. Incredibly ignorant of me? Demonstrably so. But you hit the nail on the head and pretty much solidified my point. Thanks.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Versus

Nothing. My point was that it is generally very unflattering to women who wear them. I added that bit about polygamy as an example of a reason why it is so unflattering. You said "Polygamy is really rare." I thought you were saying "Polygamy has nothing to do with it because it's so rare."

Because polygamy exists, niqabs are unflattering? Care to take us down that line of logic?

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Part of the problem is that people are confusing the dangerous fundamentalists within the religion with the rest of the religion itself.

If I remember correctly, hijabs were adopted as part of Islam from the Pagan Arab culture that came before Islam. Mohammad said that instead of throwing the ends of the hijab back over their shoulders, women should bring them forward to cover their chests and thus be more modest.
There are also supposed to be at least 4 eye-witnesses - people who have SEEN the deed - for a conviction of adultery, man or woman.

But going back to my long post, changing attitudes about pressuring/forcing women to wear head scarfs of any sort is a very difficult thing to do. I wish it was easy enough that people didn't consider banning them, but *shrug*
Banning niqabs and burkas won't make the problem - whether it's oppression or fear of terrorism or whatever - go away.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Saya

Because polygamy exists, niqabs are unflattering? Care to take us down that line of logic?

It's a short trip.

Because of the social connotations with polygamy in middle eastern culture (and I don't exclusively mean the present one), I think that it was designed to be as such in order to detour the men who could not marry from their wives.

[Isaloween]

Dear France, stop being such xenopobic racist douchebags, you're really fucking with the American perception of Europe as a liberal paradise.

Yeah and that would be nice if you just stopped making generalitise like that, all French people are not "xenopobic racist douchebags" as you say. And it's really sad that shit like that still comes out of people's brains!

As for the American perception of Europe as whatever the fuck, I'm speaking only for myself here, but I couldn't care less about what American or whoever else think of my country this is Sarkozy's worry, not mine.
I believe that everyone should clean up his/her house before checking on what's going on in the neightbour's one, and I'm certainly not going to enter a competition on who's doing better than the other. We're all good on some points and crap on others and a government's decision is not valid for ALL members of the country. Especialy not in France and especialy these days!

[Alan]

You're clearly an idiot.

[Isaloween]

Whatever Alan...

[Despanan]

Shut up Frenchy.

[Isaloween]

Yeah I will cause it's nonsens talking with you. You're closed up.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Isaloween

Yeah I will cause it's nonsens talking with you. You're closed up.

Closed up like your mom's vag.

...After I fucked her.

...With my Penis.

[KontanKarite]

Despanan... take a walk. I'll handle this.

Isaloween. You've been acting dumb and we have the evidence to prove it. My partner... he can be a bit rough. But we're really just trying to help you out here. Tell us who made you this dumb and we can make all of this go away.

[Despanan]

*runs back in the room and punches Isiloween*

YOU SICK BITCH! YOU GONNA GO AWAY FOR A LONG TIME! A LONG TIME!

THEY'VE GOT NAMES FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHERE YOU GOING! FISH!

[KontanKarite]

HEY! DESPANAN! You go cool the fuck off! I've got this. Jesus, go to the gym or something. You need to blow off some steam.

[Despanan]

TEN YEARS FISH! You're lookin' at TEN YEARS OF RIDICULE WHEN I GET BACK, LESSEN YOU GIVE MY PARTNER SOMETHING!

[PortraitOfSanity]

This thread is full of epic lulz.

"I hate the middle east."

"I don't think it's racist at all!"

[KontanKarite]

Despanan, get out of here before you do something you regret. Now... Isaloween, all you have to do is tell me who made you dumb and I can make all this go away. You don't have to talk to my partner anymore.

[Despanan]

You know you done fucked up.

[Geoluhread]

Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci

I do have to say that burkas are something of a safety hazard, what with being difficult to see out of.
They have to be used with common sense. Show your face when you need to be identified, make sure you can see properly when you're crossing the street, etc, but banning garments is not the way to go about it.

There actually was a Fatwa (don't know if it's recent to be honest) that since Niqab isn't manditory it is allowed to take it off in places where it's difficult to wear them or can be a danger to a woman's well being -as being harmed for instance- and to make it easier for women who are in countries which make it difficult for them to live normally if they wore it.

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

This thread is full of epic lulz.

"I hate the middle east."

"I don't think it's racist at all!"

Hahaha I know I was thinking the same, also to Alan's post, the Halloween prank, I LAWLED so hard.

Basically, Alan, I respect you so very much.
Saya, you know I love you girl we should talk on msn soon.

[PortraitOfSanity]

Saya's the shit.

[joeybelges]

hi,
i'm a newcomer,i'm sorry but i don't speak english very well,what removes anything has my thoughts and has my convictions,
i'm surprised with the violence of some("despanan"),how can we offend,who are us to judge so,every state makes errors,but the people don't still approve!!!it isn't necessary to make of generalite!!!i think it's with this kind of schemes that the world don't bring in in peace!!!the intolerance is a destructive weapon!!!!
nobody has rigth(law) to judge!!!
a word to the wise is enough Despanan!!!
i thought of finding things more sincere to goths ,i think and i imagine to find more freedom of thougts....

[Alan]

You're new and not good to English, so I'll just explain to you.
Despanan was being facetious by scolding a whole country. It's the conclusion of an argument that didn't go anywhere; Isaloween just wasn't getting it so Despanan explained it in absolute terms.
What's your original language?

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

I feel silly. I'd forgotten France's strong tradition of secularism.

Video of two female students protesting the ban of niqabs and burkas: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...n-protest.html

Geoluhread: I wish people listened to that Fatwah more. I think that when testifying, or when receving medical care, or when one needs to be visually identified, one should uncover one's face, but other than that, it's the woman's choice (or at least should be).

[Geoluhread]

I can tell you that some muslims would think such Fatwa is outragous. They seem to forget that Islam is basically a religion of making things easier and not harder. If she chooses to wear Niqab it's her choice, it is not manditory.