Death to MEGACHURCHES!

[Renatus]

In the Bible it says to selflessly help your fellow man, it also says to take some of the money that could help your fellow man and give yourself reclining seats, a stadium, and big screen tvs to watch the pastor with, because as we all know the poor and starving of the world need people to not give them money. It's a terrible day when the quantity of worshipers and their level of confort takes priority over the quality of the worship and the level that people follow the teachings. It's stuff like that that shows that protestantism has outlived it's usefullness and is now just for a bunch of people who are in it for the felxibility of it's rules, rather than the Will of God and the greater good. Either the protestant religions need a series of reforms or it should rejoin the Catholic church.

[spoon!]

This is what I don't like about church these days. It's a spectacle now. The only thing I haven't seen yet is moshing parishoners, and I don't doubt that it occurs.

[CptSternn]

I am a Catholic, so I might be a bit bias on this, but...

I have always felt that protestant religions do more harm than good. Once a group decides it can charter it's own religion without any input from society, and decides that it alone knows exactly what the Bible is saying, thats a bad thing. In a large religion, you have many voices to help guide the group. When your talking about a handful of people, without any former training or education in many cases, then your looking at something that is only a few steps away from a cult.

A good example of this is the church of the creator - who right now is being sued for 10 million for protesting at miltary funerals. The members are all related. In bred, country-bumpkins who have posted 'God hates <fill-in-the-blank> websites across the net because they think they know what God thinks (*cue Voltaire theme music).

They are unaccountable, as they themselves gleefully proclaim in court - since they have no official organisation which society can hold accountable for their actions. They don't take cues from anyone else, other than their own relatives which they are married to.

While it's true not all protestant religions behave in such a way, nor are they without a large organisational structure like this one group, it can be said they in some ways they do all embody the same principles. I don't mean they support these people in their endevours such as the fiasco at the funerals, but they do support anyone out there claiming that they know what God thinks and it's ok for that person to start their own religion, in the name of the same God, without any type of pre-cursor needed.

That sort of thing encourages people to behave badly, in the name of the same God they claim to support. Like those people who have ordained themselves as Internet ministers, protestants can claim they too are minsters if they at any point find their beliefs conflict with the church, and then go off and start their own religion, once again in God's name.

Thats why we have these nut-jobs running around, and people like bush in power who can oppose gay marriage (and gay rights), stem cell research, legally discriminate against various minorities, start wars, and all this other stuff the bush admin is known for, and then claim to do in in the name of God, supporting the Christian religion.

On a side note - bush claims to be methodist, but at the same time the head of the methodist church has taken a stand agains the war (befor it even began) as well as opposed bush on many other policies, which bush still pushed through anyhow. Why? Because you can't be kicked out of a protestant religion like you can in Catholicism. Once again, no accountability, even among the people who practice.

The protestant religion has become a tool in America more than a religion. It's like the corporation of religion - no one is accountable, no one has to follow any rules, and if the shite hits the fan, you can just break up the group, and start a new group to alleviate any bad publicity or any other issues that may have arisen.

[Rosie]

Yeah, it's so weird reading all these threads on guitarist forums that make churches out to be like some kind of big venue.

The Vox AC-30 is apparently popular with the religious rockers. As well as the Beatles, and probably Ian Curtis if he'd have been able to afford a better amp at the time.

[HumanePain]

When asked about money, Jesus said:

"Whose face do you see on coins? Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's"

Meaning money is man's, and souls are God's.

Money based religion brings dangerous temptations to church leaders.

[korinna5555]

Being raised Roman Catholic, I was lucky if the church was warm enough. Cushions on the pews were a treat.. not all churches have them.
Of course, the priests live like kings, and everything on the altar is gold/silk/fine linen/marble..



I like being a Druid

[grauenacht]

CptSternn nailed it. Accolades to you my good man.

[le_revenant]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

... Once a group decides it can charter it's own religion without any input from society, and decides that it alone knows exactly what the Bible is saying, thats a bad thing.

Well I agree, but, heck, that can generally describe just about any major religion, including Catholicism.
While a good number of Catholics, American & otherwise, might take issue with the policies of the Holy See, as well as its interpretation of Biblical script, the Vatican has repeatedly made it plain that these dissenters are "misguided" as the Church is merely continuing to uphold the "true" teachings of Christ as handed down from him.
Period. No discussion.

I was raised Catholic, by the way.
I call myself a latent one tho!

Personally I think religion in general is a good thing as it uplifts the spirit in some.
Organized religion, IMHO, crushes the spirit of many.

[Mon Coeur Noir]

I was getting ready to disagree with this post, but it turns out, yeah...the Mega-Ultra-Uber Church as a building needs to GO! What I remember from my church goin' days is that a church is really defined as a body of believers. I mean, as long as we were doing God Related study, we could be at someone's house and call it Church. I think people get too hung up on the actual building, and it's amenities.

[Corpsey]

Originally Posted by Cpt Sternn

Once a group decides it can charter it's own religion without any input from society, and decides that it alone knows exactly what the Bible is saying, thats a bad thing. In a large religion, you have many voices to help guide the group. When your talking about a handful of people, without any former training or education in many cases, then your looking at something that is only a few steps away from a cult.

Isn't that roughly what Muslims think about Judaism and Christianity, except that they were given the knowledge and then corrupted it for our own ways?

I don't like those mass gatherings at rock concerts either, they feel just too human.

Still, don't forget that plenty of others have accused us all of being equally deluded. Belittling other Religious activities is pointless, because for every time we try to do so, someone else from another sect is doing the same thing; we are someone else's heretic after all.

[Stormtrooper of Death]

I used to play Vox but I didn't like the tone so I'm switching to either a Marshall or an Orange amp. Anyways, I just don't like religion when its getting SHOVED down your throat by a right wing nut job.

[KontanKarite]

The Catholic church killed the heretics. Those poor gnostics...

[Ulfilas]

Another Way is possible, The Simple Way. Back to basics Christianity - Church the way Jesus intended - It's not about religion and more about a way of life that gives rather than receives. This is the way of the ordinary radicals, as demonstrated by http://www.thesimpleway.org/index2.html

I've just read the book " The Irresistible Revolution, Living Life as an Ordinary Radical" by one of the guys who founded this community... it's very challenging and has made me start to change my way of life.

I've been looking to start a church that's based on similair principles.. wish me luck

[DepthsofSpace]

Originally Posted by Ulfilas

Another Way is possible, The Simple Way. Back to basics Christianity - Church the way Jesus intended - It's not about religion and more about a way of life that gives rather than receives. This is the way of the ordinary radicals, as demonstrated by http://www.thesimpleway.org/index2.html

I've just read the book " The Irresistible Revolution, Living Life as an Ordinary Radical" by one of the guys who founded this community... it's very challenging and has made me start to change my way of life.

I've been looking to start a church that's based on similair principles.. wish me luck

Hey, awesome! Reminds me of Tolstoy's Christian wittings in a way, which heavily influenced myself.

I would love to find a body of believers to fellowship with that shared this view point.

[Ulfilas]

Well if you're interested in exploring the possibilities why not join our Ning group... http://www.ulfilasproject.ning.com - its quite new and not launched properly yet - We're linked to a few other like minded people such as the Underground Jesus Network too..

[spoon!]

I honestly don't think you need a church to have a faith in God, Jesus, or anything else. If you have it in your heart, isn't that enough?

[Delkaetre]

I'm an atheist, but....individual spirituality seems best to me.
It means that your beliefs are yours, and that you don't live in fear from something a too-rich man yelled from his platform.
It means that you're not part of a group that can be easily segregated.
It means you're not part of a group that will deliberately incite hatred against others for religious reasons.
Fewer wars, fewer fat preachers, more personal trust. Individual spirituality and belief for the win.

[Green.Lady]

I personally can't deal with organized religion. Having morals is one thing, having specific life rules is another. Extreme protestants usually do end up making me the most angry, as they are generally the most pushy and can't shut up about how fantastic their lives are because of Jesus. Catholics seem to mind their own business, which is nice.

(no offense to anyone)

[Darcnyss]

This is why I remain agnostic. This problem isn't only found in Christianity, but in various other religions as well, such as Scientology and some new-flanged religions that have reared their heads in the last 60 years or so.
Even some of the religions older than Christianity aren't completely immune to it.

[drewsilla]

Church-going was soured on me long ago. My parents were Church of God people, and the strict rules it had on raising children had us pretty tied down most of my childhood. There was so much we couldn't do as kids that when we got old enough to go out on our own most of us went wild.

That's why I'm Wiccan now. It makes so much sense to me, and I follow my own path to faith. I think that's the way it should be, not the usual church way of "Believe and think as the church does!"

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by Green.Lady

Catholics seem to mind their own business, which is nice.

I'd hardly characterize the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, IRA terror campaign in Britain, or the swath of abortion clinic bombings as, "minding one's own business." At least the priests did keep it to their communities though when they went around groping little kids.

I don't adhere to any religion, so no bias here when I say they all have their misgivings. Painting Catholics as a bunch of rosy-cheeked, flower children that are one with the world isn't accurate to history. Protestants are annoying for their use of words, but Catholics are too for their use of weapons.

[Drake Dun]

I was going to remain silent, but as you may guess, I'm with MaguMan on this one. The Catholic church has an unbelievably ugly history, and they still poke their stuff into things today (though not as badly).

I was a bit surprised by Sternn's comments. I agree that on the whole, the Catholic church is a little less insane than some of the more whacked out American protestant churches, but in general, which is more dangerous - fifteen people with a crazy idea? Or millions and millions of people who believe that some guy who lives in Rome can communicate with the creator of the universe and impart his devine fiat to the rest of us?

Drake

[deafasadoornail]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I have always felt that protestant religions do more harm than good. Once a group decides it can charter it's own religion without any input from society, and decides that it alone knows exactly what the Bible is saying, thats a bad thing. In a large religion, you have many voices to help guide the group. When your talking about a handful of people, without any former training or education in many cases, then your looking at something that is only a few steps away from a cult.

I think you need to understand the difference in mainline Protestant churches and fundamentalist, bible-based, etc. megachurches. Mainline denominations -- including Lutherans, Calvinists, Methodists, Presbyterians, et al -- don't split up into factions. The congregation votes on everything from when to change ministers to how to spend the budget to the Sunday School curriculum. If you don't like the way they vote, too bad. Mega-churches ARE cults -- often, what is called a "cult of personality" meaning that the leader determines the teaching and direction of the church rather than the congregation. When the leader dies, often the church fragments because there is no structure to it.

While it's true not all protestant religions behave in such a way, nor are they without a large organisational structure like this one group, it can be said they in some ways they do all embody the same principles. I don't mean they support these people in their endevours such as the fiasco at the funerals, but they do support anyone out there claiming that they know what God thinks and it's ok for that person to start their own religion, in the name of the same God, without any type of pre-cursor needed.

As I said, that is not true of mainline Protestant denominations. They are often skeptical of churches without a firm structure.

That sort of thing encourages people to behave badly, in the name of the same God they claim to support. Like those people who have ordained themselves as Internet ministers, protestants can claim they too are minsters if they at any point find their beliefs conflict with the church, and then go off and start their own religion, once again in God's name.

Thats why we have these nut-jobs running around, and people like bush in power who can oppose gay marriage (and gay rights), stem cell research, legally discriminate against various minorities, start wars, and all this other stuff the bush admin is known for, and then claim to do in in the name of God, supporting the Christian religion.

First paragraph: Yes, it does. No, they can't (you have to go to seminary). Not exactly, because they aren't starting a new religion -- just a new church. But that church would not be able to call itself Lutheran, Methodist, etc.

Second paragraph: The president is a Methodist, which is a denominational church. All of the things you just listed could also be laid at the feet of the Catholic church.

On a side note - bush claims to be methodist, but at the same time the head of the methodist church has taken a stand agains the war (befor it even began) as well as opposed bush on many other policies, which bush still pushed through anyhow. Why? Because you can't be kicked out of a protestant religion like you can in Catholicism. Once again, no accountability, even among the people who practice.

Actually, in both cases, you CAN be kicked out of a church. Our local Lutheran church just threw out the youth leader and a couple other people (for threatening kids, so good for them says me). I don't know how good the records are in the Catholic church but I think even with excommunication, you can just quietly go to church someplace else. It's pretty hard to get kicked out of a religion, which would be like getting kicked out of your own head. You can't be kicked out of a belief, although you could probably have it kicked out of you.

The protestant religion has become a tool in America more than a religion. It's like the corporation of religion - no one is accountable, no one has to follow any rules, and if the shite hits the fan, you can just break up the group, and start a new group to alleviate any bad publicity or any other issues that may have arisen.

I think Protestantism is USED as a tool slightly more by politicians. Time magazine has been rating the candidates on their religious stance lately; it's pretty funny. Nobody really stands to gain from that, though. Most Americans, when asked, would rather have someone who can do the job than someone who is religious. The issue gets confused because pollsters ask people if they want a moral president. Of course, everyone wants a moral president but morals and religion are not the same thing. To a lot of people, moral just means using good judgement and doing the right thing.

[Linen]

I agree, Megachurches are ridiculous. Then again, Catholics "borrowed" most of their traditions from Pagans in order to convert them. No religion/sect is without its hypocrites and the self-righteous, but I find the Evangelicals to have a ridiculously high number of these types of people.

[Tumor]

Megachurches, like regular churches, should have the right to exist. At the same time, the government should have the right to tax the hell out of them.