Latest from the Gaza Strip - Family Killed in Raid

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Megansmom

Nor can I like or respect any person that lets others tell them they are not worth anything nor do I like people who are too lazy to do anything about their lives and complain about it while they draw a welfare check, courtesy of mine and every hard working American who pays taxes,for their 6 babies by different fathers none of whom pay child support or
are in jail .

You win the racist prejudice trophy of the day. I wonder if thats the Christian coming out there in that statement?

I must have missed the chapter when Jesus told the masses 'feck off, I only have two fish and a loaf a bread - go get jobs and stop making babies'.

Homeless people who are perfectly able to get a job and take care of themselves but rather live on the streets and then bitch about all the free handouts aren't enough. then they put out the signs saying will work for food but they really want a beer and they throw the food you give them back in your face. What's wrong with telling the truth like hey I just want enough money to get my next fix?

Wow, this statement is also just as telling about your true inner being. Now all homeless are actually able bodied workers who are just 'lazy', and somehow are less than human in your eyes. Too bad you can't just eliminate this untermench, eh?

Drug addicts and alcoholics I try to feel mercy for them, but I can't. grew up around them and I have a sister that is an addict but I feel anger and hatred towards them. They don't care anything for themselves and they could care less about how they hurt others. They clean up for awhile and then go right back to the same old stupid crap even knowing that they'll destroy everything they have worked for and knowing that they are what they are and they should stay away from the crap.

Still wonder why I think American Christians aren't real Christians? That statement speaks volumes. 'Here is why I hate large groups of people, but oh I'm a Christian'.

But seriously, should they put down the bottle and pick up a Bible? Is sustituing one crutch for another really a solution to their problems? I can stand those 'new' Christians, the ones who were alcoholics, now every other sentence they are talking about Jesus, but really have no understanding of his teachings. You find these sorts in America often.

This all goes to my problem with American Christians. People who in every other statement make some Biblical reference like they are some sort of monk, yet their personal belief system is so out of whack with what they preach and they can't understand why people don't take them seriously.

It's like don't kill, unless its those damn Arabs. And love thy neighbor, unless he is homeless or drinks. The meek shall inherit the earth, but I support preemptive strikes on sovern nations. We think Jesus showed the world mercy, but hey, torture is a nessesary evil to allow us to continue our way of life.

Paul wrote you will know Christians by their actions, which includes what they say. I don't care who you are or claim to be - if you support things that are in direct conflict with what you teach, are you really a member of that way of life/sect/religion?

I find too many American Christians preach on thing, then engage in or support behaviour that is the exact opposite of what they claim to hold as a religious tenant.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me here? AK's and AR's are all made in America. Pegasus arms, Colt, and a few other manufacturers make those guns mate - in America or in factories in Europe owned by American companies.

Well, both. Disagree because your words were that all weapons used by Israel are American made. Which is wrong, as shown by the list of non-US weapons in use by Israel (weapons other than Armalite rifles). But they do get a large amount of weapons from the US. If its morally wrong to send weapons to support war, then it doesn't make much difference (morally) whether you're supplying all of them, or a majority of them. Its still wrong, so I agree with you.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

You might think that, but you would be wrong. See, its not that the US made money, its the companies mate. The US tax payer is out TRILLIONS. The small cadre of US companies with ties to the White House have made out like bandits. The people in the White House have all made personal fortunes as well.

Oh. Yeh you're probably right then, I'm sure arms companies are doing fantasticly well from these wars.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Well, both. Disagree because your words were that all weapons used by Israel are American made. Which is wrong, as shown by the list of non-US weapons in use by Israel (weapons other than Armalite rifles). But they do get a large amount of weapons from the US. If its morally wrong to send weapons to support war, then it doesn't make much difference (morally) whether you're supplying all of them, or a majority of them. Its still wrong, so I agree with you.

Well look at it like this mate -

Those guns didn't originate in those countries. They were brought in by the Americans. So when I say American weapons its like saying 'your car'. If you own a car its 'your' car. Technically Honda, Toyota, Ford, etc. someone made it, but its yours and if you sell it you call it 'yours'. People buying it will say they bought it from you and it was 'yours'.

Same with the guns and what not. They could have been made in other places, but they are 'Americas' weapons. Brought in, paid for, transported by, and put there by America.

Also note, many of those companies have contracts solely with the US military. MP4 rifles made by H&K in Germany are only supplied to US Defence contractors. So yes it's a German weapon made in Germany, but they are only sold and distributed by the US military.

If you follow the gun trail up the ladder you will find all roads lead to America.

Even in Iraq - all the weapons the insurgents have came from American back during the Iran/Iraq war - when the US was backing Saddam. Also an ironic thing to note - the Iranian army is using the weapons they bought in the Iran-Contra scandal.

I could continue on, but you get the idea.

[Raptor]

The Galil and TAR21 are Israeli. As in, designed and manufactured by Israel. Same with the Uzi, and I assume the same with the Merkava tank. MP5 PDW's are made by H&K which again is not American. So no, they weren't brought in by Americans.

If you're just saying that America pays for them, well you're probably right.

I have no idea what a MP4 is. Maybe you meant H&K416, in which case it's not strange getting a private company to design a new weapon for a military so I don't understand what the point was.

[GothicChristian]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

You win the racist prejudice trophy of the day. I wonder if thats the Christian coming out there in that statement?

I must have missed the chapter when Jesus told the masses 'feck off, I only have two fish and a loaf a bread - go get jobs and stop making babies'.

I'd like to see where she mentioned race in that?

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Wow, this statement is also just as telling about your true inner being. Now all homeless are actually able bodied workers who are just 'lazy', and somehow are less than human in your eyes. Too bad you can't just eliminate this untermench, eh?

Did she say all? No, I didn't think so. She said the ones that are able bodied, but choose to be bums.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Still wonder why I think American Christians aren't real Christians? That statement speaks volumes. 'Here is why I hate large groups of people, but oh I'm a Christian'.

Who's the one being prejudice now? Lumping everyone together and not just saying some of them.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

But seriously, should they put down the bottle and pick up a Bible? Is sustituing one crutch for another really a solution to their problems? I can stand those 'new' Christians, the ones who were alcoholics, now every other sentence they are talking about Jesus, but really have no understanding of his teachings. You find these sorts in America often.

Again with the prejudice against Americans? Would you rather them be slowly killing themselves from the inside out? Wow, you're compassionate.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

This all goes to my problem with American Christians. People who in every other statement make some Biblical reference like they are some sort of monk, yet their personal belief system is so out of whack with what they preach and they can't understand why people don't take them seriously.

You're just the pot calling the kettle black here, aren't you, dear?

Originally Posted by CptSternn

It's like don't kill, unless its those damn Arabs. And love thy neighbor, unless he is homeless or drinks. The meek shall inherit the earth, but I support preemptive strikes on sovern nations. We think Jesus showed the world mercy, but hey, torture is a nessesary evil to allow us to continue our way of life.

When did she endorse any of this? Were we reading the same post?

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Paul wrote you will know Christians by their actions, which includes what they say. I don't care who you are or claim to be - if you support things that are in direct conflict with what you teach, are you really a member of that way of life/sect/religion?

When did she support anything that went against Christ's teachings? I think you need to go back to school, love, your reading skills seem to leave much to be desired.

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I find too many American Christians preach on thing, then engage in or support behaviour that is the exact opposite of what they claim to hold as a religious tenant.

So, basically, you're saying 'Here is why I hate large groups of people, but oh I'm not prejudice, everyone else is.'

Here is where I admit my prejudices, I'm quite prejudice towards idiots.

[Splintered]

Originally Posted by Raptor

MP5 PDW's are made by H&K which again is not American. So no, they weren't brought in by Americans.

This is a bit of a tangent, but it's something I know a lot about, so I figured I'd clear this whole mess up.

Isreali Weapon Industries (the company that produces the Tavor and the Galil) is a government owned corporation run by Israel based out of Ramat Hasharon. However, they only provide the Galil, Tavor, and Negev LMG on their own. The rest is contracted to group like Magnum Research, which is an American company.

Fabrique Nationale produces the Uzi along with IMI (Arguably more, considering FN's production capability compared to IMI/IWI). A lot of American companies make the "SM-1", which is actually nothing more then an M-1 Carbine with a Tavor body. The Jericho and Desert Eagle are both produced by Magnum Research, which is based out of Minnesota.

The Israeli military heavily uses M-16 and Car-15s, with a garnishing of M-4s. Those are primarily manufactured by Colt, with a contract to FN and Armalite. They also used the FN MAG, commonly known as the M240B/G and produced by FN, which has massive operations in the states.

For their snipers, they use the M24 (Remington 700 with modifications, Remington Arms being a near exclusive American company), M82 (Barret, based out of Tennesse), and the SR-25 (From Knight Armaments in Florida).

They also have an obsession with Glocks, which is an Austrian (Not German) company, that I (believe) has a lot of manufacturing in the United States. (I know they have representations from Glock, Inc, which is the U.S. counterpart to Glock GmbH.

Finally, Heckler and Koch is founded and headquartered in Germany, but like Fabrique Nationale, a Belgian company, has not only contracts with the United States, but manufacturing plants and subsidiaries in the United States. Just a little tidbit: FN owns Browning and Winchester as well.

I just thought I'd clear that up. Israel does have it's own in house developers. However, it has a massive draw from American corporations.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Splintered

I just thought I'd clear that up. Israel does have it's own in house developers. However, it has a massive draw from American corporations.

Yeh thats pretty much what I said in my longer list of weapons (previous page). Though I didn't realise the Jericho was from the US. But I think Stern is trying to say everything is paid for by America, therefore its all American whoever makes it.

I only listed weapons because I thought he meant it was all American made, which is slightly different and yes it has turned into a huge tangent. For which I am to blame.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by GothicChristian

I'd like to see where she mentioned race in that?

So you think this statement:

nor do I like people who are too lazy to do anything about their lives and complain about it while they draw a welfare check, courtesy of mine and every hard working American who pays taxes,for their 6 babies by different fathers none of whom pay child support or are in jail .

After the 'I hate gangster rappers' statement which preceded the above statement that this is not directed at a certain community?

Did she say all? No, I didn't think so. She said the ones that are able bodied, but choose to be bums.

I ask, who are you or her to judge? How do you know the man on the corner pan-handling is able bodied? Over 70% of homeless people have a mental disorder. Are you discounting mental issues? I mean, they could be healthy physically, but have a severe mental disorder - but you say screw them you hate them anyway? Or maybe the person was normal, but had a break down, say after their family was killed in some horrific accident. Those people you hate as well? It just seems from a 'christian' standpoint, you shouldn't be passing judgment on other people, especially ones who you have no clue about their lives, history, or anything else. What? You can look at a person and know if they are a real bum who has no mental disorder and is fully able bodied just by looking at them? If so, how exactly did you acquire that talent? The real question is what criteria are you using to judge these people? Don't like their clothes? Their faces? The colour of their skin? If you can't tell me you know about their mental and physical status just by looking at them then you are judging them based on something other than who and what they are, you are discriminating based on your own limited perception.

That doesn't seem very Christian to me.

Again with the prejudice against Americans? Would you rather them be slowly killing themselves from the inside out? Wow, you're compassionate.

No, that wasn't a swipe at Americans, it was a statement about so-called American christians. You know they ones who get addicted to crack/alcohol/etc. and then 'find' Jesus and then instead of having their life centred around drugs or drink they slap a Jesus fish bumper sticker on a car and throw on a Jesus t-shirt and think that they represent christianity. The reality is they have substituted on crutch for another. People should find God because they want peace and absolution in their life. They should find God because their path has led them there. No because someone sold them a bait and switch. Not because they need something to fill the void that is there because they are getting rid of their previous crutch. Hell, people like that you can get them into bowling, football, or a sport of some sort and they wouldn't know the difference. Their beliefs are not based on faith, but on a need to have something to focus on. Allowing someone to fall into such a state without fully understanding the true Christian faith is reprehensible IMHO.

When did she endorse any of this? Were we reading the same post?

Yeah, check back a few pages on her thoughts on the Palestinians.

When did she support anything that went against Christ's teachings? I think you need to go back to school, love, your reading skills seem to leave much to be desired.

Well then, please show me where Jesus supported preemptive strikes. Please show me where Jesus supported torture. Better yet, please show me where Jesus supported the mass killing of innocent civilians, starving the masses, to prove a political point. I must have miss out on that and you two seem to know more about it.

Maybe I need one of those WWJB bracelets (Who Would Jesus Bomb?)

So, basically, you're saying 'Here is why I hate large groups of people, but oh I'm not prejudice, everyone else is.'

Exactly. I'm prejudice against people who are openly prejudice.

[Megansmom]

Stern you take a lot of stuff and really twist it around .
There was no mention on preemptive strikes or killing in my post. Nor was there any mention of any mass starvations in any of my post. i never said I hated Palestinians, I simply said they should start trying to work with other countries to expand their capabilities and stop blaming Israel for all their problems. I also said their government was robbing the people blind and that the people should look to them for the biggest part of their problems and that since they wanted to be their own country they should learn to be more self reliant. That is not racist that is granting the right to succeed or fell as a country.
Of course your right about the time.There has never been a country called Palestine. You will find it only listed as a region on maps . check out you Middle Eastren Maps.
Nor did the Jews misplace anyone. The land was nothing but deserts and swamps with a few nomadic tribes . Nobody wanted it and gladly let the Jews have it.
During the 19 years that the territories were occupied by Jordan and Egypt no one talked about a Palestinian state. Nor was either country asked to to abdicate ownership of this region not even the people themselves. nor did either country offer the people citizenship.
Palestinian people are Arabs. They speak the same language practice the same religion and have the same culture.The only difference is they live in a land called Palestine.( Kind of like the Welsh and the Scot. They are all British just two different regions) So why aren't the other Arab nations helping them ?
I don't believe Israel should provide these people with everything they want . You believe Israel is guilty of some crime and refuse to admit that Palestine has a lot of fault here too. I don't see you condemning them for the use of suicide bombers or missiles on civilian towns in Israel.
Israel never went to war against Palestine , they were attacked by 6 Arabic countries at once and won the so called territories from Jordan and Egypt. They did not steal the land from the Palestine people.
Very few of the people who live on the Gaza strip or in the Palestine region are natives. It wasn't until after Israel became a thriving country that most of the Arabs started immigrating there, and most are refugees other Arabic nations wouldn't take.
Then again you live in a country that has used terrorism a time or two to try and get it's own way too. Yea the good old IRA. Did that do Ireland any good? No it didn't.
And I hate gangster rap music and the life style because it promotes violence, disrespect for women and life, usage of drugs and is so vulgar . no where did I say because it's because people who listen to it or sing it are one race or another. I know people of all races who listen to it. wonder what race you thought about.
I dislike laziness and people being rewarded for it. Since you want to throw out Christian values you should read Acts and 2nd Thess Paul wrote about the virtue of working hard to feed himself and making himself useful to those around him.
I dislike people who abuse the system and I am overly aware of the mental issues of some homeless people . That is why the ones who are bums or just choose to be lazy bug the shit out of me :they take away from those who need. Hence the wording homeless people who are able not homeless people because. No where was the word hate used there.
True , I did say I dislike even hate alcoholics and drug addicts. I won't
apologize for that one because I've seen way too much and experienced way too much because of that. I even have a hard time believing in recovering alcoholics and drug addicts but I do believe they can do it if they really want to.
And just a little tidbit here I dislike these behaviors and the harmful impact they have on people I started a group using my church to work with kids of families who are lacking stability for lack of a better word, who have parents who are on drugs or alcoholics , and just wanted a safe place to come to. We fed , counseled and helped all who came through the doors. And not all of them were minorities.
No government money was used and people were never turned away. The church and the community paid for and provided everything from food to time . And nothing was asked for from those we helped except that when inside your gang colors came off. ( there are five active gangs in the area.)
So what have you done for anybody? Other than sit on your sanctimonious arse and call people racist where there is no racism involved and pretend you are all perfect?
As the original post said , I know as a human I am flawed and that I have prejudices . I also said these are things I have to work on, as the Bible says one must pull the logs out of ones own eyes before they can help pull the splinters out of another's
I give you back your trophy on racism and assumptions. I also give you the top award for being able to twist everything that doesn't agree with your little world . I also give you kudos for realizing I was calling you alone a nut job, you know if the shoe fits....
By the way your wrong. I have 2 college degrees and am working on my 3rd a masters in nursing. My income is none of your business, but I can assure you it's more than 50 thou a year and I've never been to Mexico.
One more thing a MP4 is a MP3 with video capabilities

[insolitus_noir]

Originally Posted by Megansmom

Nor did the Jews misplace anyone. The land was nothing but deserts and swamps with a few nomadic tribes . Nobody wanted it and gladly let the Jews have it.

I'm afraid you're mistaken. The land was very much occupied. From a recent roundtable interview on Democracy Now:

AMY GOODMAN: How was it that for so many years the Zionist narrative was that there were either no Palestinians—it was an empty land—or the Palestinians left of their own accord?

BENNY MORRIS: These are different subjects, but I think the Zionists preferred not to see the 500,000-or-so natives who were there, as they regarded them at the end of the nineteenth century, because if they had sort of looked at them and they’d have seen the problem of what do you do with 500,000 people who don’t want you to arrive and settle in your—in what they regarded as their land, this would have knocked out the confidence from the Zionists and undermined their enterprise. It was better to see that the—to believe that the land was in some way empty. But if you look at the actual Zionist documentation, they did see the Arabs, and they knew there was a problem almost from the start.

Actually, the whole discussion between historians (Morris is an Israeli historian) that are expert on the history of Israel and Palestine is worth reading: http://www.democracynow.org/2008/5/1...d_palestinians

and

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/5/1..._honig_parnass

The entry on Israel at Wikipedia also strikes me as reasonably good, based on what else I've read on the subject, in describing the history of Israel's problematic creation.

[Splintered]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yeh thats pretty much what I said in my longer list of weapons (previous page). Though I didn't realise the Jericho was from the US. But I think Stern is trying to say everything is paid for by America, therefore its all American whoever makes it.

I only listed weapons because I thought he meant it was all American made, which is slightly different and yes it has turned into a huge tangent. For which I am to blame.

It's a tangent that I enjoy though.

Israel is a weird case for arms dealing. It's not a lower class consumer that takes away old Soviet-Bloc weapons to man it's army. However, it's not an upper-class consumer either, in that it doesn't really have an advanced production company of it's own. It does have IMI, but all they are really famous for are the Tavor and the Galil. The Jericho is even weirder, it's a CZ-75 in a Desert Eagle shell, chambered for the .41AE, which no one really used up until then.

It's just fascinating to me.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Megansmom

There was no mention on preemptive strikes or killing in my post. Nor was there any mention of any mass starvations in any of my post. i never said I hated Palestinians, I simply said they should start trying to work with other countries to expand their capabilities and stop blaming Israel for all their problems.

When you support israel in the debate on the Middle East, you automatically support premptive strikes, killings, and mass starvations. Thats what the israelis are engaged in. Thats why there are so many UN resolutions condemning them. You can't support them without supporting their tactics.

It's like saying I support armed bank robbers, but I hate guns and violence. The two go hand in hand. You can't support something without supporting their policies and the tactics they engage in.

I also said their government was robbing the people blind and that the people should look to them for the biggest part of their problems and that since they wanted to be their own country they should learn to be more self reliant. That is not racist that is granting the right to succeed or fell as a country.

It's racist since you obviously have no idea whats going on over there. They currently have no government. The israelis bombed all government buildings and told the Palestinians they could not assemble. How exactly can they 'be more self reliant' when they cannot hold open elections and cannot assemble in their own country because another country is killing innocent civilians in attempts to control their government?

Of course your right about the time.There has never been a country called Palestine. You will find it only listed as a region on maps . check out you Middle Eastren Maps.
Nor did the Jews misplace anyone. The land was nothing but deserts and swamps with a few nomadic tribes . Nobody wanted it and gladly let the Jews have it.

Again, where do I begin to explain how wrong you are on every aspect of that statement?

Palestinian people are Arabs. They speak the same language practice the same religion and have the same culture.The only difference is they live in a land called Palestine.( Kind of like the Welsh and the Scot. They are all British just two different regions) So why aren't the other Arab nations helping them ?

Even more convoluted and misinformed history here. First, I know many Scots. Many don't like to be called brits. In fact, the SNP is now pushing for a referendum to make Scotland independent, but thats for another thread. And other nations ARE helping the Palestinians. Pretty much all of them are - even Egypt who recently opened their boards to help starving Palestinians. You must read up on this, and check the current news out on this as you really have no clue about the history or current unfolding events.

I don't believe Israel should provide these people with everything they want .

You sound like its israels land. They steal the land, then tell the people to feck off, and your like somehow israel has some right to the land? The land did not belong to the brits - it belonged to the Arabs there. It wasn't britians to give away.

If I say sold your house tomorrow, even though I don't own it, do the new owners 'owe' you anything? I mean, why should the new owners of your house help you out? Seriously, they are the owners - your just a squatter there. Implying that somehow israel 'owes' is to imply that they are legitimate owners of the land. They are not. They are merely the ones who took it illegally and have spent decades killing civilians to keep it. That doesn't make them by any means legitimate.

You believe Israel is guilty of some crime and refuse to admit that Palestine has a lot of fault here too. I don't see you condemning them for the use of suicide bombers or missiles on civilian towns in Israel.

The Palestinians are acting in self defence. You can't fault a people for acting in self defence. If your family was under attack from somewhere and your home was threatened, would you not act in self defence? If a nation is attacked, it has the right to defend itself. Much like Iraq, israel has tried to convince everyone that they are the ones under attack, like America tried to convince they are the ones under attack in Iraq. Truth is - both nations invaded sovern nations and control land that wasn't theirs. The indigenous people there have the right to defend themselves, their families, and their way of life just like you would if some nation decided to invade America.

Israel never went to war against Palestine , they were attacked by 6 Arabic countries at once and won the so called territories from Jordan and Egypt. They did not steal the land from the Palestine people.

Wow, you really have been fed a lot of misinformation. Check the above links in the Wiki, but you need to seriously read up on this. Not one nation ever invaded israel. Why? Because israel launched a 'preemptive strike' and then claimed that those six nations were ABOUT to attack. That was their CLAIM. Just because they said it doesn't make it true. What is fact is the weapons israel used to preemptively strike those six nations were all provided by the US.

Very few of the people who live on the Gaza strip or in the Palestine region are natives. It wasn't until after Israel became a thriving country that most of the Arabs started immigrating there, and most are refugees other Arabic nations wouldn't take.

Seriously, you need to watch a few of those BBC documentaries and see for yourself and hear for yourself the truth. You are spewing the right-wing rhetoric that is cut and paste from propoganda mags. Nothing you have quoted so far is true.

Then again you live in a country that has used terrorism a time or two to try and get it's own way too. Yea the good old IRA. Did that do Ireland any good? No it didn't.

Here, I know a thing or two. First, the IRA freed Ireland. Ireland didn't exist until the uprising in 1916. The IRA brought freedom to Ireland. Thanks to the campaign in the 70-80's today the Sinn Fein is in power in the North. In fact, one of the former heads of the IRA is currently First Minister of Northern Ireland. Currently, he is engaged in a unification campaign to end british rule in the north and rejoin the nation. Before you argue this, know that I am a member of Sinn Fein, have been for decades, and hold an elected position within the party. If you really want to talk about Irish politics, I will be more than happy to start a thread on this.

And I hate gangster rap music and the life style because it promotes violence, disrespect for women and life, usage of drugs and is so vulgar . no where did I say because it's because people who listen to it or sing it are one race or another. I know people of all races who listen to it. wonder what race you thought about.

Really? Because if I said goths - would you think African Americans? If I said country and western music, would you think Chinese? If I were to make a statement against headbangers, would your first thought be Indians? To act like you didn't mean to imply a certain colour is quite naive on your part.

I dislike laziness and people being rewarded for it. Since you want to throw out Christian values you should read Acts and 2nd Thess Paul wrote about the virtue of working hard to feed himself and making himself useful to those around him.
I dislike people who abuse the system and I am overly aware of the mental issues of some homeless people . That is why the ones who are bums or just choose to be lazy bug the shit out of me :they take away from those who need. Hence the wording homeless people who are able not homeless people because. No where was the word hate used there.

Again, how do you define these groups? Do you know any bums who are just lazy or is this just some stereotype you have in your brain? Is there one man or woman in particular? If so, do you really know all about them or are you just juding them on face value. It's easy to say you dislike <fill-in-the-blank>, but the reality is you don't know if that person or group of person even exists. Your going on a stereotype or something you have been sold by right wing pundits.

[CptSternn]

So what have you done for anybody? Other than sit on your sanctimonious arse and call people racist where there is no racism involved and pretend you are all perfect?

Where should I start. The fact I have been imprisoned in three countries for my political beliefs? The fact that I work with a dozen different groups in efforts to bring change in various parts of the world? I work with many Middle Eastern groups as well as many anti-war groups. I have a few articles here:

http://www.sternn.com/stuff/media

A few shots from the various papers in Ireland where I was featured. I have some TV media clips coming soon.

I work with men who have been in Guantanamo Bay. I personally know and correspond regularly with current and former political prisoners. A have some more pictures here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cptster...7600566403611/

But thats just the ones I have been able to track down from various media outlets.

As the original post said , I know as a human I am flawed and that I have prejudices . I also said these are things I have to work on, as the Bible says one must pull the logs out of ones own eyes before they can help pull the splinters out of another's

I like that. Tis true sure. That being said you should maybe take a step back and look at all the facts in the debate here. Before you think I'm wrong, maybe you check out some of those vids I suggested? Get another view point thats not from your normal sources. I was raised in America. I have seen the viewpoint from there, and you echo it without flaw. I personally think you might be surprised if you took the time to look into some alternative sources, which I hope you do and stay in this debate and let us know what you think after seeing another media standpoint.

I give you back your trophy on racism and assumptions. I also give you the top award for being able to twist everything that doesn't agree with your little world . I also give you kudos for realizing I was calling you alone a nut job, you know if the shoe fits.

You say 'twist', but I argue that it's your views that are twisted, you just need to untwist them to see them from my perspective. But again, this isn't just 'my' viewpoint, this is the viewpoint that is common outside of America. Wouldn't you think that it would be beneficial to take a look at things from the other side of the argument?

By the way your wrong. I have 2 college degrees and am working on my 3rd a masters in nursing. My income is none of your business, but I can assure you it's more than 50 thou a year and I've never been to Mexico.

Good for you. You haven't had any political theory and definitely no Eastern or Middle Eastern history. Thats ok, but you have to realise there is a whole world out there, and most of it disagrees with what is taught in America these days.

One more thing a MP4 is a MP3 with video capabilities

An MP4 is a submachine gun made by H&K. The MP line means 'military police'. They have a wide selection of these - MP5, MP12, and others.

[Mir]

I think all people of a religious inclination (specifically christians) should read The Antichrist by Nietzsche.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

An MP4 is a submachine gun made by H&K. The MP line means 'military police'. They have a wide selection of these - MP5, MP12, and others.

MP is an abbreviation of Maschinenpistole, the German term for submachine gun. I still haven't heard of an MP4 though. Theres a UMP 45. Or a H&K416.

Originally Posted by Splintered

It's just fascinating to me.

Me too. You know a lot more about the companies I think. Whats a MP4?

[Splintered]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

An MP4 is a submachine gun made by H&K. The MP line means 'military police'. They have a wide selection of these - MP5, MP12, and others.

Originally Posted by Raptor

Me too. You know a lot more about the companies I think. Whats a MP4?

The MP line means "Maschinenpistole" (1). There is no MP-4 in the Heckler and Koch arsenal. They produce the HK-54, which was the pre-adoption name of the Mp5, and the Mp5a4. There was also a prototype called the Mp-64, however it never really saw production. Finally, they make the Mp5/40, which is the Mp5 chambered for the .40 cartridge. (They made the Mp5/10, which is supposed a fine gun too).

Heckler and Koch does not make an Mp4 model, to the best of my knowledge. They also don't make an MP-12 either. Beretta makes the Model 12, which is a submachine gun, however it's not called the Mp-12, it's called the PM-12 and the PM-12S.

The only way I can think of the Mp4 being an HK gun, is if people use the old, old, old naming scheme. The number "4" used to designate the caliber 9mm in HK guns, so someone could mistakenly call the Mp5 the Mp4 (because the Mp5 uses the 9mm caliber for the basic model), but they'd be calling it the wrong name. That would explain why it doesn't show up anywhere. However, the Mp-12 is still plain out.

[Raptor]

I thought it was odd I hadn't heard of them... the only MP weapons I know are the variety of MP5's and the MP7. Or the MP40 from WW2.

But yeh because of this:

Originally Posted by CptSternn

MP4 rifles made by H&K in Germany are only supplied to US Defence contractors.

(the US only part and the rifle part) I thought it could be the H&K416, as it is an assault rifle. Wikipedia claims it was originally called a HKM4 so that could get confused with MP4. I also claims that some other countries besides the US are buying them for their special forces, so even if the US is the major buyer, it isn't the only one.

[Splintered]

Originally Posted by Raptor

(the US only part and the rifle part) I thought it could be the H&K416, as it is an assault rifle. Wikipedia claims it was originally called a HKM4 so that could get confused with MP4. I also claims that some other countries besides the US are buying them for their special forces, so even if the US is the major buyer, it isn't the only one.

It's possible too. We'd have to ask Sternn what he's talking about though.