Nightwish

[Mandarinz]

Well I was gonna put "what we think is good" so that is wasn't a concrete statement, but I figured that you'd probably find something wrong with that too, so I didn't bother.

[Mandarinz]

I was going to say "we THINK it's good" so it wasn't a concrete statement, but I figured you'd probably find something wrong with that too.

[Hydrodyssodia]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

There IS bad art and there IS good art.

WTF am I reading? Honestly, I think Nightwish is shit but what the crap?

[Hydrodyssodia]

What would qualify music as "good". It's technical complexity? It's enjoyability? The ideology it presents?

[ape descendant]

Wow, this whole discussion is getting silly. Music is art, bands make music... so yeah.. its art.. and if a person does or doesn't like a band its due to artistic taste. Arguing that some one's art is shit because you don't like it, is childish and narrow minded...

Its one thing to think it's shitty... but another to completely lambast some one else for liking something you don't. Life would be pretty boring if we all did/said/liked/wore the same shit as every one else, so what the hell is the point of being shitty to some one who is just doing their own thing?

@ Noriette- I didn't mention Annette... but for the record, I'm not a fan of her style.

One thing I'd really like to know, is how one can make the call that a band is shallow across the board, is it that music can't move some one on more than one level or for more than one reason?

I enjoy listening to older Nightwish because it sparks my imagination and grows stories there. Art isn't always about what's on the surface, its not always about the words, sounds or pictures its made up of, some times a part of the piece is inside the person experiencing it. I am of the opinion that no piece is complete without and observer.

If liking a certain band, and saying so, wishing to discuss it with others who also enjoy the music makes me a shallow little girl, then that's ok, I don't mind.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

Wow, this whole discussion is getting silly. Music is art, bands make music... so yeah.. its art.. and if a person does or doesn't like a band its due to artistic taste.

Films are art. Security cameras film.
So yeah... security footage is totally art, huh?

[ape descendant]

Woodcarving is an art form, people carve chairs... are chairs art?

[Alan]

Wait... so you're repeating what I said, and with your example you are backing down from the thing you just claimed?

No bitch. Just making a chair doesn't make the chair a work of art. That's my fucking point and you're supposed to be arguing against it. Just making a song doesn't make that song a work of art.

[Saya]

I think you're kinda missing the point, ape.

But, what is good can usually be objectively decided, or at least fairly objectively. We all know Citizen Kane is a great film, and Trolls 2 is a very bad one. What you find enjoyable is very subjective, however, some people don't care for Citizen Kane and lots of people enjoy the badness of Trolls 2, it doesn't need to be that extreme, lots of people turn their brains off to enjoy crap without thinking if its good or not *cough*eatpraylove*cough*.

Nightwish is very cheesy music and they repeat themselves a lot. But there's definitely a lot of cheesy bad things I like so I don't judge, but I do recognize that its not quality stuff.

[vx cheerleader 69]

OK, now, can we stop the drama and start threads about artists we like and so on ? I've been very negative about Nightwish (still am) but I tried at least to be somewhat funny in my interventions. Anyway, I'm stopping watching this topic, it faded into pure hysteria.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Alan

Wait... so you're repeating what I said, and with your example you are backing down from the thing you just claimed?

No bitch. Just making a chair doesn't make the chair a work of art. That's my fucking point and you're supposed to be arguing against it. Just making a song doesn't make that song a work of art.

So, Alan, what makes art, art? Please, enlighten us.

[Alan]

That is not the discussion here. I am not here authoritatively declaring what is and what is not art.
I'm just here to call on your bullshit when you pretend to authoritatively declare that something is art when it's that shitty.

[ape descendant]

@ Alan- You know, answering your original question about security cameras being art... is something I probably should have tackled up front instead of asking a question that is subtly different.

Film is a medium, like paint or word. There are some who use security cameras and what I would call the "security camera format" as a medium. There are music videos and movies that use the format to lend a certain feel to a scene, and there are people who use security cameras to record little plays that they put on. So, I say that security cameras as a medium can be used for art.

Chairs are a bad analogy, as chairs are usually a finished product, not usually used as a medium like film.

@ Saya - From what I understand, there's no actual way to quantitatively measure the quality of art, no units to add up and show a hard provable system of showing that one piece is proven to be better than another. From what I understand the quality of art is judged by critics and consensus, and while they are important, to allow popularity or some one's strong opinion to limit what we allow ourselves to take in or affect how much we allow ourselves to enjoy something would be a sad limitation of human individuality.

Of course there will always be greats, classics, and widely loved pieces. There will also be the little folk pieces, the cheesey pieces and the pieces that we complete in our imaginations, these ones can often mean more to a person than all of the Warhols, Polloks and Picassos combined, because they touch our lives on a daily basis in ways we understand personally.

[Noirette]

Originally Posted by Mandarinz

It was just this particular comment that I thought was stupid. It wasn't even aimed at me, but we could say the same thing; "that Noirette is s stubborn little girl who can't accept that what we like is good"

That' my dear, was after Ape insulted my singing abilities without hearing me and started to make it personal, in case you missed the point.

Problem is, Mandarinz, you take someone else's opinion too personal. That's a good thing to learn, ans a very hard one. Think about before you answer.

Nightwish ia all about Escapism and shallow lyrics with catchy music that isn't too difficult on the technical level, and there was only a single song I could ever attach a clear meaning to. I was a Nightwish fan for a year or so and I knew almost all their lyrics by heart, before you start waving around the "you don't even know what you're talking about" statement.
Hell, even their song-writer clearly admitts it's all about Escapism, that it's shallow aesthtics with no means to change something. It's nice, sometimes, but come on, you can't let that be considered "deep".

What do we listen to? Was that meant to be sarcastic?
Anyway, that's a song I sat as the example of what Nightwish are NOT :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjy5TQiUuNQ

[Noirette]

I tend to agree with Ape about art being in the observer. That's nice.
But then, Nightwish, as Nightwish and not as "Nightwish through Ape's eyes" isn't good, that's all. Just like your sister's drawing to Christmas might make you excited to the point of crying, but it might be horrible as a painting.
That's subjectivity, we're not discussing it. At least, I hope we're not.

[Alan]

We're not. Remember that we're not the one who arbitrated what is art and what isn't. She's the one that said "oh no, THIS is art"
Don't concede more than she is due or she will start thinking that your argument was hers all along.

[OnyxBat]

Making a chair is work of art because its a type of art to (carving). Painting a wall is art, graffity is art, people are art, even a t.v is art. They all have some kind of creativity to them that makes them art.

So is a security camera.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

Making a chair is work of art because its a type of art to (carving). Painting a wall is art, graffity is art, people are art, even a t.v is art. They all have some kind of creativity to them that makes them art.

So is a security camera.

You don't even know what we're talking about. Shhhhh

[OnyxBat]

Originally Posted by Alan

You don't even know what we're talking about. Shhhhh

, I just wanted to make my point clear about art.

[Alan]

By your definition taking a shit is art. Killing a person is art. Anything is art. And if anything is art, nothing is, because the word art would be redundant.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

@ Saya - From what I understand, there's no actual way to quantitatively measure the quality of art, no units to add up and show a hard provable system of showing that one piece is proven to be better than another. From what I understand the quality of art is judged by critics and consensus, and while they are important, to allow popularity or some one's strong opinion to limit what we allow ourselves to take in or affect how much we allow ourselves to enjoy something would be a sad limitation of human individuality.

We do have ways of telling whether something is good or not. In the case of film, how original was it? How was the technical quality (quality of picture, transition, were CGI effects glaringly obvious, lighting, etc)? How convincingly did the actors perform? How was the quality of the plot? How enthralling was it? Even films I don't enjoy I'll admire for the acting, plot or technical side of it. I'm not an expert on music so I can't really tell you what qualifies good music, but I'm sure the list looks something like that. Its not at all a popularity contest, I'm sure we all have less known pieces of art we admire.

Of course there will always be greats, classics, and widely loved pieces. There will also be the little folk pieces, the cheesey pieces and the pieces that we complete in our imaginations, these ones can often mean more to a person than all of the Warhols, Polloks and Picassos combined, because they touch our lives on a daily basis in ways we understand personally.

Nightwish is not a shining example of a folk piece. I do concede that people like crappy things because of personal reasons, but that doesn't mean that those crappy things aren't crap. There it has a personal value, but not an artistic one.

[OnyxBat]

Originally Posted by Alan

By your definition taking a shit is art. Killing a person is art. Anything is art. And if anything is art, nothing is, because the word art would be redundant.

Different people think different things, we are all NOT like YOU.
And shit is art, the processing throught our digestive system is creativly amusing (I am not going to get into the process).

[Alan]

Some people think the world is flat. You're a fucking idiot.

[OnyxBat]

your a twat

[KontanKarite]

But Alan is not a twat. You're just a LYING idiot now. Stop compounding your fail.