Fantasy Fiction

PhilSmith · 02-09-2006, 11:39 PM

What do you think are the worst excesses of fantasy fiction these days? I'll get the ball rolling by pointing out what irritates me.

I like to think I'm a fan of fantasy, but I've come to realise that the more of it I read the less I like; so far, out of the Big Names (tm) the only writers I've enjoyed at all are Michael Moorcock, Mervyn Peake (even though he wasn't really what I'd call a fantasist), Roger Zelazny, Clark Ashton Smith and to a lesser extent, J.R.R. Tolkien.

It just seems to me that there's a lot of repetition; so much sub-Tolkien rubbish seems to be churned out before the novel horks up a handful of dwarves (with requisite beards and axes as per spec) or shits out a load of elves that are pointy-eared, magical and attuned with nature. Is it some kind of law now that elves, dwarves and dragons are pre-requisites for fantasy? Worse yet, do characters from these groups have to be defined merely by beard-length, ear-pointiness or breath temperature?

I'll stop there lest I get myself all wound up again.

WolfMoon · 02-10-2006, 09:28 AM

Hmmmm, good point Phil.

Worst excuses?

Just about anything by Piers Anthony. Probably 90% of his books are rubbish. But I'll still read 'On A Pale Horse', that one's just hilarious.

Juliet Bathory · 03-08-2006, 02:13 AM

I recently discovered James Clemens and I loved the Wit'ch War saga and I have just bought book one of his new series. I have only read a little bit of fantasy fiction (no I haven't read LOTR or the Hobbit and have no plans to do so) so I am not so disillusioned by fantasy, but I know that by the last Vampire Chronicle - I was fed up with the trite characters and overused scenery that I was glad she quit writing goth horror.

What do you think fantasy needs in order to breathe new life into the genre?

emeraldlonewoulf · 03-08-2006, 09:16 PM

Something other than elves, fairies, gnomes, dragons, etc., i.e. all overused mythological beings, unless a genuinely new perspective can be found. Also, new plot line. There are only so many princes that can discover their past after being raised from nothing, only so many princesses who can be rescued, dragons slayed, etc. Even reverse plots have been over used ( dragons as good guys, kickass warrior princesses, princes fallen from grace, etc.)

ghostposts · 03-27-2006, 11:44 AM

Now, I have fun with fantasy. In one story I parodied a classic guy puts his foot in his mouth with woman and set it witha priest and a Goddess. It got good reviews in Tangent.

My current series, which is about to come out by rene publishing as an e book, is a satire on government, relationships and religion, disguised as a fantasy/comedy. The cliches are there, but I play with them, and introduce old mythological monsters as well.

My other is a rebel story, where a Necromancer goes against not only his cultural beliefs but his Goddess, and is cursed. Rene has that one, too.

I've been hustling, trying to get them edited so they can go to the publisher. She'll edit them again, but I want to make them look as good as possible. Work, work, work...

Basically, it is what you make of it. Most stories have a fantasy element. Supernatural horror, my favorite, is a good example.

ExistentialDisorder · 03-27-2006, 11:56 AM

what makes it fantasy if it doesn't have magic, elves and dragons and all the classic elements of fantasy?

i don't really read fantasy, so that's why i'm asking. i've tried in the past but it was boring. but that's probably because i chose bad authors. the concept has always been interesting, and i usually enjoy playing world of warcraft...

angel011 · 03-27-2006, 01:14 PM

There don't have to be elves and dragons. There's urban fantasy, too. Neil Gaiman's "American Gods" is considered to be dark urban fantasy. Barker's "The Weaveworld" is close to urban fantasy, too, though Barker is a story for himself. "Tea with the Black Dragon" by Roberta McAvoy is another wonderful urban fantasy (all right, there's a dragon in the book, but he's adorable).

There are many overused cliches in fantasy, and that is irritating; what's even more irritating are underinformed people (or, even worse, underinformed writers) who believe that in fantasy everything goes because "it's not real", and that they don't have to read what other fantasy writers have written and thus avoid what's already been overdone to death. As a result you get yet another dumb book with dragons and elves.

Probably the worst fantasy books I've read lately are books by Mercedes Lackey. She's as mediocre as anyone could possibly be. She also tends to "educate" her readers with wisdom like "slavery is wrong", "females should have the same rights as males" and to overuse that cheap "a child in danger" trick to get the attention.

On the good side, there's George R. R. Martin's "A song of Ice and Fire" series, not exactly thought-provoking, but well-written and enjoyable.

ExistentialDisorder · 03-27-2006, 04:22 PM

ok, fair enough. but then that brings up the question of genre.

when you visit your average book store, you'll find authors like Barker listed under horror, not fantasy. I don't know what an "Urban Fantasy" is, and I've never read Weaveworld. I was a fan of Nightbreed, based on his book Cabal. Would that be considered urban fantasy? It is classed as horror, both film and book.

So I think it's a question of genre, and what a title immediately puts in your head. When the average person hears the word 'fantasy' they immediately think of faeries, elves, dragons, harry potter, etc. When you hear horror you think werewolves, vampires, freddy krueger, etc. Even tho I've never considered Rice's vampire tales to be horror, they're classed as such in every book store I've ever been in, because vampires are by tradition, horror stories. save the occasional book store that categorizes by author name and not genre. just as dragons, by tradition, are fantasy. would the film Reign of Fire be considered Fantasy or Sci-Fi? I'm not sure it was ever based on a book.

angel011 · 03-27-2006, 10:49 PM

Cabal is horror, no doubt about it. Barker was pretty annoyed when people labeled him as a horror writer because of his earlier works (Cabal, Books of Blood). Weaveworld is more fantasy with elements of horror, and later Barker's works are difficult to classify as any particular genre (Barker himself called them "fantastique").

"Urban Fantasy" is set in the modern-day world, but non-realistic things happen and/or there are non-realistic creatures (typically they are mythological beings).

When an average person hears the word "fantasy" what they usually think of is "Sword and Sorcery" (elves, dragons, sorcerers etc.), which is just one of many sub-genres of fantasy.

Reign of Fire? It happens in the future of our world, so it, traditionally, should be Sci-Fi. If there was also an attempt (I forgot whether there was or not), no matter how weak and lousy, to try and explain the dragons scientifically, it's definitely Sci-Fi.

winged_dreams · 03-27-2006, 10:58 PM

It's hard to write a fantasy story that hasn't been done many times before. It's a mark of a good writer then can take a well used genre like fantasy and turn something somewhat original out of that. Or at least I think so.

I do enjoy my elves though.

tenet_2012 · 03-27-2006, 11:05 PM

I enjoy David Eddings.

I have also read a couple books from the "Wheel of Time" epic, but damn is that story long. It is on it's eleventh book and still going.

ExistentialDisorder · 03-27-2006, 11:07 PM

Reign of Fire wasn't too far into the future. They didn't have any sort sci-fi weapons, tools, etc, that I can remember. just guns, with bullets, and I think they used some make-shift bombs. The only thing sci-fi about it would have to be the dragons. And yet dragons are fantasy creatures.... Surely it can't be the time period that makes it a sci-fi film. Otherwise, a love story that takes place in 2030, that doesn't show anything more advanced than our current technology, would have to also be considered sci-fi. ??

Curious.

I've wanted to write my own bit of fantasy. As I said I've never really read much of it. All I know of fantasy creatures is what I've gathered from Ultima, Warcraft, and other games I've played. Plus the varioius movies i've watched. Still, I have this scene in my head that started as a dream, that I want to write out some day.

angel011 · 03-27-2006, 11:35 PM

I don't remember Reign of Fire too well, so I can't be sure. The time period alone wouldn't make it sci-fi, that's true, future (even if it's not that far in the future) is just usually reserved fot sci-fi. What matters most is how the material is treated. Like I said, if there was an attempt, even a poor one, to try and explain the dragons scientifically, that it's sci-fi. If dragons just are, like humans just are, it's more in the domain of fantasy.

If you're going to write fantasy then please, please first read it. If all you know about it, or almost all you know, comes from games and movies, you can only avoid doing what's already been overdone to death if you have an amazing amount of luck.

And if you do have THAT amount of luck, play lottery, and you'll soon get disgustingly rich.

Shi'ark · 03-27-2006, 11:47 PM

I believe that to write modern fantasy and write it well you have to do one of two things. Invent something new and original or go back to the mythological. I agree with what most here had said, coming up with the same kind of stuff over and over again elves, dwarves, etc is just crap. Where’s the imagination in it. More writers need to come up with their own mythology instead of living in a world very much like the one some body ells had come up with. I use to love Terry Brooks and Kathleen Kerr (I think that’s how her names spelt) but with the Middle earth stile of world the characters live in made me crave for some thing more. Thank god fore Philip Pullman.

angel011 · 03-27-2006, 11:47 PM

About that "Wheel of Time" epic: it's another one I can't stand. Many like it, though.

Shi'ark · 03-27-2006, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angel011

About that "Wheel of Time" epic: it's another one I can't stand. Many like it, though.

I read the first one I liked is but it when on a little bit. Might have been better if shorten down a little but I will read the second book.

tenet_2012 · 03-27-2006, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shi'ark

I read the first one I liked is but it when on a little bit. Might have been better if shorten down a little but I will read the second book.

So far there are eleven books and counting.

Good Luck.

angel011 · 03-28-2006, 12:01 AM

I didn't really like the first one, but it had some interesting enough parts to make me read the second book. After that one, I gave up.

As for fantasy literature in general, I don't think that the problem is in elves and dwarves and Medieval-like setting. The problem is in writers who have nothing to say and try to hide it with colorful pictures (elves, dwarves, dragons etc.). If a writer really has something interesting to say and a story to tell, and creatures like elves fit in it well, it will work out just fine.

psychopenguin · 03-28-2006, 12:03 AM

I think in order to really enjoy fantasy these days you have to forcibly forget the stories that have been written over and over and look that them as a fresh new idea every time- even if it isn't new. Otherwise everything becomes too similar for enjoyment. Eventually all the stories bleed together and become one. Yet if you were to mentally separate each story from the next and ignore the similarities... you'll find you can still enjoy the classic "prince is brought up in squalor becomes great and slays the dragon while winning the heart of the stubborn maiden/princess".

Shi'ark · 03-28-2006, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenet_2012

So far there are eleven books and counting.

Good Luck.

Well there’s 15 Shannara books by Terry Brooks, I thing I read up till 9 when I lost interest. I still love his Word and the Void trilogy though.

tenet_2012 · 03-28-2006, 12:13 AM

I have read all of the Dune books.

Very good stuff.

ExistentialDisorder · 03-28-2006, 12:41 AM

now is Dune fantasy or Sci-Fi ? I've always thought of it as sci-fi. and on top of that, i think the concept is stolen from star wars, unless dune was written first. Dunno. but i'm thinking it wasn't.

Quote:

you'll find you can still enjoy the classic "prince is brought up in squalor becomes great and slays the dragon while winning the heart of the stubborn maiden/princess".

I, personally, would never write about that. it's weak and rather pathetic. not to mention extremely dated and boring.

it's been my understanding that Tolken laid the groundwork for modern fantasy, through LOTR. prior to that, there were of course, various 'fantasy' tales, envolving dwarves, elves, faeries, etc etc, but Tolken was the one that brought them all together to live in the same world, enteracting with each other, along with the other creatures he created or reinvented himself. And his framework is what most fantasy authors today write in. is that correct?

My lack of actually reading much fantasy is probably a big reason why i've never really tried to write any. but even so, i've dreamed up my own ideas, from characters that i've created, to entire plot lines. i've learned a lot about different creatures and beasts and their origins, from various games i've played. I have to admit, the longest running game I've ever played was Ultima Online, which i was addicted to for over 5 years. My little brother and I were big fans of the previous Ultima games (those that came prior to the online mmo). And I'm pretty sure, tho not 100% possitive, that its story is based largely on Tolken's creations, just using its own world. But regardless, if these games are based on modern fantasy fiction, and that fiction is mostly the same from one book to the next, where is the difference then, from experiencing it all through a game or through reading it?

Shi'ark · 03-28-2006, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder

now is Dune fantasy or Sci-Fi ? I've always thought of it as sci-fi. and on top of that, i think the concept is stolen from star wars, unless dune was written first. Dunno. but i'm thinking it wasn't.

No Dune is about 15 years older then Starwars.

ExistentialDisorder · 03-28-2006, 12:55 AM

ah, well then there you go. i always wondered between Dune or the spice mines of Kessel which were older. heh.

Leave it to Lucas to not have an original thought in all of his star wars films. and yet, he had the nerve to sue the creators of battlestar galactica for being "too similar" to star wars.

angel011 · 03-28-2006, 04:46 AM

And, btw, Dune is Sci-Fi.

Quote:

it's been my understanding that Tolken laid the groundwork for modern fantasy, through LOTR. prior to that, there were of course, various 'fantasy' tales, envolving dwarves, elves, faeries, etc etc, but Tolken was the one that brought them all together to live in the same world, enteracting with each other, along with the other creatures he created or reinvented himself. And his framework is what most fantasy authors today write in. is that correct?

It is correct, at least when it comes to sub-genres such as High Fantasy (Tolkien) and Sword and Sorcery (similar to Tolkien's work, but a much lighter read).

Later, though, appeared fantasy sub-genres such as Contemporary Fantasy, Urban Fantasy, Magical Realism, Dark Fantasy... While they're somewhat influenced by Tolkien, they are considerably different from his work.

While games are based on modern fantasy fiction, they're based on modern fantasy cliches, on things already overused.

Quote:

i've dreamed up my own ideas, from characters that i've created, to entire plot lines.

That's good. But if you don't know the genre in which you write, you could end up doing something which has already been done before so many times no one wants to read your work, and games can't provide you with enough information.

Quote:

i've learned a lot about different creatures and beasts and their origins, from various games i've played.

What you learn from games can be interesting, but keep in mind that games use their own versions of creatures and beasts and their origins, and therefore can be different from the original myth. Most of the time they are different. If you really wish to learn about various creatures, encyclopedias and actual myths are a much better source.