Abortion is murder

[Alarica]

Calm down love, it's only a forum. You'll send your blood pressure soaring the rate you're going.

not my fault if you cant take my sense of humour sweetheart

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Alarica

Calm down love, it's only a forum. You'll send your blood pressure soaring the rate you're going.

not my fault if you cant take my sense of humour sweetheart

...I don't think you understand.
No one actually cares about this as much as you think they do.

[$haDe]

[Off-topic] Was the "you have no sense of humor" offensive ?

[Maggoty Anne]

Not really. Alarica isn't too popular here, what she says won't have much impact on anyone.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Yeah, I'm pretty certain most of us just laugh it off.

[jack_the_knife]

Originally Posted by Maggoty Anne

Not really. Alarica isn't too popular here, what she says won't have much impact on anyone.

It has an impact on me, what she said has scarred me for life, I don't no if I can carry on living now...

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by AshtrayKitten

It seems like circular reasoning, that killing a fetus is not homicide, but killing an unconscious person would be homicide because you'd be killing a person, and it's a person because it's been a person before and so on.

Perhaps. But the rest of the logic follows from believing there is difference between having existed, and not having existed.

Originally Posted by AshtrayKitten

Answering the question of whether or not it abortion should be legal falls under social organization. All I'll say is that the answer given should be consistent with whatever morals and ethics a society chooses to uphold. Or not, since one more contradiction in the pile won't hurt nobody.

Very true.

[sweetdreamr23]

I've had an abortion through medication.

[Saya]

^ That reminds me, a lot of people are agaisnt birth control pills because there is a chance that a woman can get pregnant while on the pill, but because you're on the pill it'll die before you even know. Is that murder? Manslaughter? What about the morning after pill?

[Maggoty Anne]

Originally Posted by Saya

^ That reminds me, a lot of people are agaisnt birth control pills because there is a chance that a woman can get pregnant while on the pill, but because you're on the pill it'll die before you even know. Is that murder? Manslaughter? What about the morning after pill?

The morning after pill prevents the egg from implanting on the uterine wall. If it has already, you will still be pregnant even if you take the pill. It does not cause abortions!

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Maggoty Anne

The morning after pill prevents the egg from implanting on the uterine wall. If it has already, you will still be pregnant even if you take the pill. It does not cause abortions!

If you consider life to begin at conception, then yes it is abortion if the egg is fertilized.

So I guess you believe life begins when the egg is implanted in the uterine wall?

[Maggoty Anne]

Originally Posted by Saya

If you consider life to begin at conception, then yes it is abortion if the egg is fertilized.

So I guess you believe life begins when the egg is implanted in the uterine wall?

It's not a matter of when life begins. Unfertilised eggs are just as alive as fertilised ones, it's just that one has the potential to reproduce. Pregnancy begins when a fertilised egg implants onto the uterine lining; that isn't subjective, it's the medical definition. Because abortion can only occur when someone is pregnant, the morning after pill cannot induce abortions. It is exactly the same as the regular pill, just a higher dose.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Abortion-...rning-Pill.htm
http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/ecabt.html

And besides, would you rather I get an abortion, or take The Pill?

[Saya]

I'm not arguing with you at all, but what I'm saying is a lot of people consider life to begin at conception, not when the egg is implanted. For example, back a while ago did you hear how in Palin's hometown of Wasilla they made r@pe victims pay for their r@pe kits? The logic behind that apparently was that r@pe kits have the morning after pill, which a lot of people are against.

And Ashtray said in the first post: The moment a fetus is conceived, it consists of living tissue belonging to what will eventually become a person. It is alive and human.

[Maggoty Anne]

So is semen.

[Saya]

Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

[.:_MOONCHiLD_:.]

i think that if your are ***** or something that it would be okay to do that, but if it's for no reason then it's just not right

[Maggoty Anne]

Originally Posted by Saya

Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

XD


fuckthe10charlimit

[AshtrayKitten]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Perhaps. But the rest of the logic follows from believing there is difference between having existed, and not having existed.

We are trying to figure out when a person is and when it isn't, when it does exists and doesn't etc. Recognition of self-awareness, I think I've established, is not sufficient a requisite towards claiming an organism is human.

Originally Posted by Saya

^ That reminds me, a lot of people are agaisnt birth control pills because there is a chance that a woman can get pregnant while on the pill, but because you're on the pill it'll die before you even know. Is that murder? Manslaughter? What about the morning after pill?

Which reminds me: If you believe a woman has the right to choose whether or not she aborts her baby, that the baby is a part of her body and merely a parasite, then you agree that birth control is totally the responsibility of the woman, that the consequences of getting pregnant are hers and only hers to deal with. I think.

[$haDe]

Originally Posted by AshtrayKitten

Which reminds me: If you believe a woman has the right to choose whether or not she aborts her baby, that the baby is a part of her body and merely a parasite, then you agree that birth control is totally the responsibility of the woman, that the consequences of getting pregnant are hers and only hers to deal with. I think.

This brings up a very good point. (good enough to drag me in replying this thread,again.)

Well, nobody want to die but they are not in control of their lives.

[Hades]

Dammit, too many pages. Let's start with some interesting things people said... and if this font hurts your eyes too, then you're all crazy! CRAZYYY!! This is the blandest of them all... =(

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

That is the hypocrisy. "Human" life is valued and all other is viewed as expendable. Pro-life is bullshit term.

People have been delving into the consciousness subject but oddly no one dared mention the soul-argument xD so i may sound all crazy and whatnot but who cares, right?

Why is pro-choice the cooler team? Because all we know about the fetus is its physical traits. We value our membership in the Humans-Are-Kewl club because of that little "extra spark" we've got, and do not know if other species have as well. Some call it soul, some over-developed brain, maybe experience, spirit, yo momma, chicken feet...

Compare a slimy little parasite that has no history, no contribution (good or bad) to the world and a consciousness and soul that are yet to be found, compare that with a developed human being, be it a baby or a 42year old female. You do know that medicine and science still haven't been able to explain every single detail of the world, so why don't you stop solely relying on medical explanations of how a fetus is similar to a human, and try to see that perhaps the value it has is actually more equivalent to its potential+whatever value we place on it, depending on how much we want it and love it.

Or maybe when its brain develops, its consciousness develops as well and it's THEN it starts having value... i don't kow when that happens so i'll say starting from the point the fetus actually has proper instruments with which to be aware, that's when it becomes a person.
Beyond that point, it may be murder to abort, but it might be murder in the same way that killing someone in self-defense is. Once again, sadly, human lives have different value. I'm not saying that's how it should be, but that's what it is and well, it tends to work (yes there's always exceptions). A murderer's life, a räpist's life, they're of lower value than say antie shop owner's.


This is a vast topic with beautiful philosophical points to touch on =) and i'm too lazy to write more on it, so i'll just say... consider arguments for what makes us human eg soul + consciousness, in what body part do these reside, when they come about, and also consider utilitarianism and such crap for the "is it wrong?" question. There. Now the quotes. =D

Originally Posted by viscus

Not to pick on you in particular, Angelik, but I hear this come up a lot in abortion arguments and it invokes moral relativism. You're walking dangerous ground, because a Muslim man who had beaten his promiscuous daughter to death, which is acceptable under Shariya law, could just as easily tell you not to "push your morals" on him.

True, but the value of that girl's life is far greater, as she has lived, done things and experienced things. Sometimes pushing morals on others is necessary when they are clearly, maliciously, and severely harming another person, already existing person, with no better justification other than "it's the way we do things around here". Just think of Hitler or something

Originally Posted by Alarica

And you seem like the result of married cousins, and if you dont like my posts, ignore me.

My question wasnt aimed at you, so unless you posted the original thread, put your ego away. If you did post the original post in the thread then by all means answer me with a near intelligent response

If one could not derive the meaning of the thread and why it was written as it was by themselves, then one might need to rethink whether the light they see themselves in is truly a realistic one... o.0

Originally Posted by Alarica

absolutely. couldnt agree more. Of course you are right. It is very mature to start a thread and let it go on for pages, when you dont have a clue what you are talking about especially with regards to comments about keeping a headless foetus alive, and ending his idiocy with comments a 3yr old makes 'you also smell of poo'. Could not agree more.

As for him saying he isnt against abortion, to be honest i couldnt care less. He started the thread titled 'Abortion is murder'. He should be able to back up his reasoning as to WHY it is murder, and in light of that should be able to understand why other people dont see that and understand the fundamentals of biology and the function of the brain.

And learn to read. I said if he is going to insist on behaving like a child i will treat him like 1.

Yes, cause a wordvomit of insults in one way or another is a very clever way to form your arguments "ABORTION IS MURDER" is a catchy title, will attract many opinionated people and raise discussions and debates, as a forum is supposed to do. "Do you like abortion? Are you pro-life or pro-choice? Abortion!-what's your take on it?" might convey a similar message in a more PC way, but hey, not as catchy

Originally Posted by Raptor

Differentiating between two potentials of life, one which has previously exsisted and one which hasn't.
By having previously exsisted, that person has gained knowledge, memories and has affected the world around them. It is not a potential for new life, but for the continuation of life. By killing the body you will end the potential for that person to return, and end their life.
For a zygote, you can kill the cells and end the potential for a life. But there is not yet a person that can be killed. The conciousness is prevented from exsisting, not from returning.

YYYYEEeeeeeeeeSSSSSSSS!!!!!
Well said. It's the whole "value of things" i tried to explain, sort of.

Originally Posted by Alarica

Oh do grow up, child. I have no intention of explaining to you how i know so much about the developmental process of a human foetus or on brain development and function. I have far better things to do with my time, oddly enough.

Originally Posted by Alarica

Then you interpret it how you like. All I have seen is a whiney bitch who wants me to sit here, wasting time i dont have, proving i have vast knowledge on a subject that is no longer relevant to me. All i have seen from a select few have been posts stating things they are convinced they are right on when they are wrong, and when corrected the response is 'yeah well whatever'. Typical childish response. I know 3yr olds who take being corrected better than that.

It's done. Deal with it. I'm not here to placate your little friends need to feel big in the world. I have said to someone else and will say the same to you. Behave like a child, i will treat you as 1.

The title of the thread isnt 'do you think abortion is murder' as a set up for a debate, it is a blatant statement 'Abortion IS murder' so all the posts in the world, even those full of facts stand for nothing. It was started by someone who has made their mind up and clearly wasnt throwing up a subject for differing views.

Originally Posted by Alarica

Now, quit being a whiney bitch and jog on. I'm done with this thread. You can find me elsewhere if you feel you are still unable to let this go.

All of those harsh words, long angry posts when she "had no time to waste on this" and the best part yet...

Originally Posted by Alarica

Calm down love, it's only a forum. You'll send your blood pressure soaring the rate you're going.

not my fault if you cant take my sense of humour sweetheart

LOL it sounds like you can't handle your own bipolar moodswings or whatever it is you have. I'm sorry for picking on you and "speaking out of my place" ye Old Wise one but you're the one that needs to keep her temper in check... o.0 and why i can butt in like a mad intruder? Because it's a forum =D

Woha, longest post i've done in years. My browser is feeling all laggy and whatnot. Gosh, i feel tho thmart =)

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Hades

People have been delving into the consciousness subject but oddly no one dared mention the soul-argument xD so i may sound all crazy and whatnot but who cares, right?

Anyone who actually cares about the quality of this conversation. So nobody.

Why is pro-choice the cooler team?

Because science says so.

We value our membership in the Humans-Are-Kewl club because of that little "extra spark" we've got, and do not know if other species have as well. Some call it soul, some over-developed brain, maybe experience, spirit, yo momma, chicken feet...

We already know that other species have minds. And politics. And inventions.

Compare a slimy little parasite that has no history, no contribution (good or bad) to the world and a consciousness and soul that are yet to be found, compare that with a developed human being, be it a baby or a 42year old female. You do know that medicine and science still haven't been able to explain every single detail of the world, so why don't you stop solely relying on medical explanations of how a fetus is similar to a human, and try to see that perhaps the value it has is actually more equivalent to its potential+whatever value we place on it, depending on how much we want it and love it.

A "slimy little parasite" is a living thing, and most likely a member of the all-important circle of life. Were it not for "slimy little parasites", whatever eats them would run the risk of dying out, and whatever eats that next thing would, too. The potential of a human is no greater.

[Hades]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

Anyone who actually cares about the quality of this conversation. So nobody.

Because science says so.

We already know that other species have minds. And politics. And inventions.

A "slimy little parasite" is a living thing, and most likely a member of the all-important circle of life. Were it not for "slimy little parasites", whatever eats them would run the risk of dying out, and whatever eats that next thing would, too. The potential of a human is no greater.

Hm, your other post seemed more snappy than that :/ "i'm not worth more" yea yea we're heard it all before, but you seeeee, the fate of this thread and therein the world and its bestiary... resides in thine shoes.

Seriously now, i do actually mock myself at times and "slimy little parasite" is a spiced up quoting of what some people called the fetus, since i'd used the word "fetus" too much i thought i'd give the little bugger some sarcastic variation i might be misunderstanding ye but stop getting hung up on the details and see and comment on the entirety of the diatribe that is mine essay.

I shall act as the very failed reviver of this discussion ^^ just because i want to see if anyone is still reading and if they have an opinion... but i've probably missed the entire party haven't i?

[kimaru]

I think that this world is already over populated, and if people are preventing an excess of babies in this world, thats fine with me.

[Darth Nihilus]

Originally Posted by Hades

[color=Yellow]

People have been delving into the consciousness subject but oddly no one dared mention the soul-argument xD so i may sound all crazy and whatnot but who cares, right?

Why is pro-choice the cooler team? Because all we know about the fetus is its physical traits. We value our membership in the Humans-Are-Kewl club because of that little "extra spark" we've got, and do not know if other species have as well. Some call it soul, some over-developed brain, maybe experience, spirit, yo momma, chicken feet...

There is no extra spark, and there is nothing spiritual about a human. You are flesh and blood like every other mammal on this planet. The only truly unique thing about humanity that isn't physical is our sheer, unrivaled egotism to think that we are anything more than piles of meat walking around deluding ourselves into thinking we are some sort of spiritual chosen children of an invisible diety or some rare occurrence in nature.

News flash, you're a primate, I'm a primate. We are animals. We simply are so arrogant as to think we're better.


As for the abortion being murder issue, I have a question.

Assuming that abortion is accurately called murder, so what? People have been brutally killing each other for far worse reasons than some people get abortions for. Not all life is to be encased in bubble wrap and treated as sacred. So even if your pile of cells does constitute a "human", it makes little difference. Most pro-life people I meet support things such as the death penalty and war, both things based around the acceptable murder of human beings. In for a penny, in for a pound.

[Hades]

Ah, you're one of "those people" well....... ok i don't remember what i said, let me re-read it.

Aah, yes.

Well, i pointed out one way of looking at abortion. There are many ways. I picked the one i relate to personally, of course, and you seemingly did the same the argument of "what is more valuable" still stands!

I do agree with you on the second paragraph, it's the (MUCH) lesser evil. Well, the reason why people love babies so much in the first place is because of this egotistic desire to live on, even through someone else... or to know that your gene-pool created something cool.