Gothic Discrimination in School

[soggypicklemuncher]

Oh, also, in the Hamilton City School District, "occult" or "satanic" symbols are not allowed, which means even wiccans are not allowed to wear pentacles. That's some bullshit there.

[snapdragon]

Crosses, but no pentacles? Well... They probably think they're saving some kids from the 'horrid evils'. I've heard the rumor that our school might be making a new rule stating that we are not to dress in the same color consecutively during the week. A few years ago at my middle school, they started sending kids to the dean who had on all black, regardless if it were plain black, or with offensive material on it. So, I'm just sorry for them now..its all bull, but they probably had enough complaints to fill the gym..haha.

[NoneSuch]

Like I said.. just be happy you arnt english we are forced to wear uniforms in all our schools.... They force you to look like everyone else.. one little differnce like a necklace and it gets taken off you .

[Raven113]

Originally Posted by soggypicklemuncher

Oh, also, in the Hamilton City School District, "occult" or "satanic" symbols are not allowed, which means even wiccans are not allowed to wear pentacles. That's some bullshit there.

In my school I lucked out, the exact wording was "symbols encouraging chaos" meaning only the anarchistAwas outlawed. The authority figures had believed that pentacles fell under that phrase as well. A little education changed their minds. I worked within the system, and everything was fine for me. (Being an 18y/o senior year and living on my own helped. Adults give you a bit more credit when you can bitch right back at them about the "real" world.)
I'm told the dress code has gotten stricter in the last few years though, so mayhaps no one is fighting them properly anymore, or they are just not being reasonable.

[Jane13]

My school is sort of subtley trying to kill the goth look.... I can no longer wear my goggles, but they let me do the eyebrows. They don't flat out say "Redneck good, Goth bad!" but they do the "distraction" theorum thing. We aren't allowed to show our shoulders. They say distracting, so guess if you have seniority over the rule you luck out. My friend gets to keep his signature "Johnny The Homicidal Maniac" hair, and you're allowed to wear bondage pants, which I think is funny since they make such a big deal about "sexual innuendos" (in this case what they don't know doesn't hurt us). However, they will not let people wear big black eyeliner circle or black lipstick (I'm not a fan of the stuff, but it's still about choice), fishnet (sheer clothing of any kind), any type of non-religious headgear (which is annoying when you wake up, make an outfit based around a spiffy pinstriped fedora and then remember you can't wear it), spikes, chains, ripped clothing, coats that fall below the thigh, and boys can't wear skirts. I don't see why not! Some of my straight, non-gothic, male friends just feel like wearing skirts! Besides, there's nothing wrong with being gay or gothic >.< One day last year I almost got in trouble for wearing a pretty frilly EGL dress, but one administrators was really nice and reasonable, and even asked me if it was some sort of style. This year The most "goth" thing I've worn was a pair of vynil pants an no one really got angry... but getting really dressed up at school just doesn't seem worth much anymore, so I just save my favorite clothes for the weekend. At least they wont get worn out that way. Eh, that's my peice.

[(-$|N-)]

This makes me glad I graduated, and do not have to put up with the discrimitory stuff thats coming up and its mainly because of a few people that ruined it for the rest of us because they could not suck it up and deal with it. Basicly the schools are trying to keep stuff from turning out like this one story I heard a few months ago about a goth who was killed by a jock because he was a goth. So they figure eliminate one factor the problem should go away, but by thinking it will go away your not solving it. That is what the schools dont realise.

[Sakred_Winter]

Originally Posted by Jane13

My school is sort of subtley trying to kill the goth look.... I can no longer wear my goggles, but they let me do the eyebrows. They don't flat out say "Redneck good, Goth bad!" but they do the "distraction" theorum thing. We aren't allowed to show our shoulders. They say distracting, so guess if you have seniority over the rule you luck out. My friend gets to keep his signature "Johnny The Homicidal Maniac" hair, and you're allowed to wear bondage pants, which I think is funny since they make such a big deal about "sexual innuendos" (in this case what they don't know doesn't hurt us). However, they will not let people wear big black eyeliner circle or black lipstick (I'm not a fan of the stuff, but it's still about choice), fishnet (sheer clothing of any kind), any type of non-religious headgear (which is annoying when you wake up, make an outfit based around a spiffy pinstriped fedora and then remember you can't wear it), spikes, chains, ripped clothing, coats that fall below the thigh, and boys can't wear skirts. I don't see why not! Some of my straight, non-gothic, male friends just feel like wearing skirts! Besides, there's nothing wrong with being gay or gothic >.< One day last year I almost got in trouble for wearing a pretty frilly EGL dress, but one administrators was really nice and reasonable, and even asked me if it was some sort of style. This year The most "goth" thing I've worn was a pair of vynil pants an no one really got angry... but getting really dressed up at school just doesn't seem worth much anymore, so I just save my favorite clothes for the weekend. At least they wont get worn out that way. Eh, that's my peice.

A little legal jabber for you, if girls are allowed to wear skirts, then the boys are allowed to. Disallowing boys to do something, but letting the girls do it (this is the same the other way around) then that is "enforcing gender stereotypes," and that is illegal. So tell your friends that they have the law on their side :grin:

So, last week, after about two weeks of wearing my lip ring every day since Friday, Sept. 2 (my b-day) Suddenly, one of my teachers felt it distracting to the educational process and I was told to take it out. Its only been in about 3 weeks, and its not done heal so I told her No. It'll heal over and hurt like a bitch. I dont have a clear stud (I have one now but I hate it, because, to me, it represents the oppression I have been dealt) So I was sent home for not taking it out. My mom was pissed and she got me an excused absence for that day due to administrative approval. I took the clear stud out today 1. The pus cakes around the stud and it looks really gross and makes my face sticky. 2. it hurts and rips the inside of my lip 3. Once again, it represents the humiliation I have to endure every day since this year began. And my vice principle told me to my face that she doesnt want my lip to get infected or anything unhealthy such as that, when, (before she made me change to the stud) was almost healed. Now, its swollen, infected, and ripped. Plus, other facial peircing are allowed, eyebrows, noses, and one other person with a lip ring, but he hasnt been subjected to taking his out.
So, after one more unconstitutional factor (wearing my "Proud to be Pagan" shirt. If they try to make me change I can get another article against them, Religious Discrimination.) I'm having my girlfriend's mom help me get an attourney and suing the crap out of the school. If I do win the money, most of its going back into the art program in my school, which is also oppressed and ignored.

[Raven113]

Originally Posted by Sakred_Winter

If I do win the money, most of its going back into the art program in my school, which is also oppressed and ignored.

While I applaud your altruism, I find it hilarious that this scenario would be a long, expensive process with the end result of you telling the school board where to spend their money.

[lacroixdemalmort]

while the scools are trying to ban us from wearing the clothes that we want they dont see that preps are wearing wrost and more revealing items then we are..... if they are going to set up a set of rules for us to go by it should be for all.....not only that at my school they have a crazy day and people get to dress gothic and they think its cure we do it and we are suspended its all bullshit if you ask me

[Jane13]

Thanks for the info, Sacred_Winter! Oh... your poor lip >.<; that's not fun at all. I hope it stops hurting and and it doesn't heal over... and your comitment to your school's art program is really great!

[Loy]

It's funny to me listening to all of you people under 18 talking about rights and stuff, considering that you don't have any. At least as far as the Supreme Court's concerned.

[Sakred_Winter]

I have the same rights of any adult. I've been a "legalized" adult since Sept. 2. Second, the responsibility of the school is not to oppress, discriminate, or favor any specific group of people. One of the main jobs of the school is to support individuality in a child, not conform it, while teaching us what we need to do to get on in the world. The school shouldn't just ban that culture and tell us all that is a bad decision and you shouldn't do it just because THEY don't like it.
Like it or not, they are a public school system and still must obey the rights of anyone. If the look isn't hurting someone, or just being vulgar or slutty..You know, just being creative instead of trying to follow the dress code society tries to set for us, then it should be tolerated in school.

[Peter]

I could have sworn children had legal rights in the US, this isn't Starship Troopers. Yet.

[Demonista_Ravenesque]

I almost got suspended for wearing random bondage to school, and bringing a set of handcuffs and whips too, fucking school...But it wasn't smart of me since I clearly know that every school in Australia is a uniform school :P. So no, I can't do shit about it, but I'd say...you should invent some reason for it, like, my friends wore dreadlocks and the school doesn't allow it but he said it was part of his religion to have dreadlocks so they fell for that and let him. But seeing as you're mature, I bid you good luck on your petition to bring back the goth in schools.

[Loy]

Sakred Winter-If you actually believe that schools are supposed to foster "individuality", then I'd suggest you look into the history of our schooling system. (OK, REALLY short lesson-our schooling system was based on the Prussian system of education, with bits and pieces taken from the Vritish system. And with both systems, the main goal is fostor conformity, union, and belief in the state/hegemon/culture. Why these goals? Simple-to create cogs/soldiers for the state. I could go on about it, but fuck it, I'm feeling lazy right now, so I suggest that you do the studying up on it. That way, you learn something for yourself, and you don't sound so ignorant about a subject before proclaiming "truths" about it)

Peter-the Supreme Court has ruled over and over again that people under the age of 18 are charges of their parents. In the case of the parents not being there, then they are the charges of family/relatives. If they're not there, then they are charges of the state. In other words, legally, people under 18 are not real citizens, and therefore, not entitled to the same rights as adults. And yes, according to the Supreme Court, schools CAN impose all kinds of rules upon students, AND tell them what to wear, what to write, etc. (This I know from personal history. As an editor for my high school newspaper, I was suspended for writing an anti-Bush editorial. I was about to try to bring it up in lawsuit, and then the supreme court ruled on a similar case, and pronounced that schools had the right to censure students any way they pleased as long as it wasn't in a way offensive to "community standards". On a realistic level, "community standards" leaves a hole big enough to drive a semi through, but all in all, they've upheld this ruling a number of times, and expanded upon it, as I've explained above.)

[Peter]

Oh I know, but children still have rights, it's not like they're allowed to kill you to death with sticks.

After all, it's the Supreme Court's job to make sure lawyers have stuff to argue over so decisions are made as ambiguous as possible whilst they try to rule on an individual case without creating any real precedents outside of very narrow criteria. (Like with the ten commandments on government property thing, which is clearly unconstitutional, except when it isn't, let the lawyers fight over it)

So I know this isn't their stated job, but a lot of those lawyers have families to feed and children to stagnate.

[Fenris]

I don't think the problem is that they are trying to keep gothic dress out of schools, it's that they aren't being consistent.

If you're allowed to wear a cross outside your shirt, your allowed to wear a pentacle. If your allowed to wear your favorite cheesy as all hell trendy jesus shirt, your allowed to wear your pagan shirt. Anything else is blatent favortism of a specific religion by a government intstitution, and religious persecution.

Not all American schools are bad about it, and i have no problem banning pentacles and spikes if they want to ban crosses and wwjd wrist bands too.

Trying to focus on how they're stifling creativity will never get anyone anywhere legallly with a bunch of white middle-to-upper class males who always wear suits anyway.

If someone focused more on the discrimination and provided a well designed photo-documented study on the issue and found the money to push it until someone cared, the schools across the country might be inclined to change once the constitution is ruled to be against them.

Not that the constitution matters in southern states anymore *cough*Alabama*cough*. Re-entered into the union my ass, damn modern confederacy.... *steps off soapbox*

[Peter]

Is "pagan" actually recognised as a religion there?

[Loy]

Peter-and what exactly are those rights? (And don't use the "right to not be fucked with unneccesarily" line. That isn't a "right" as much as it's a guidline for discipline). On a legal level, anybody under 18 is a charge, and not a citizen. Now, whilst the SC has ruled that rights do extend to "non-citizens", charges are another realm of legalese entirely. Charges are, in a nutshell, persons incapable of making decisions for themselves. Yep, children are on the same field as brain-dead vegetables and feeble-minded seniors. And since "pagan" is a word used to describe a whole slew of religious/theological beliefs, no, it's not considered a religion.

Fenris-there's been plenty of documented cases of discrimination of ALL kinds within the US school system that has been cropping up ever since the 80's. And they did all kinds of good in combatting homophobia, sexism, classism, racism. I mean, it's not like any of those things exist anymore.

Sorry, but as much as I'm on your side, I think you need to rethink some of your positions (banning of spiked bracelets? Sorry, but have you ever been smacked across the face with a spiked bracelet? I can guarantee that they hurt a hell of a lot worse that a retarded "Jesus Is My Friend" bracelet. Sorry, but the word "weapon" comes to mind). And "men who wear suits all day"? Sorry, but complaining about singling people out, then using this line in a desulatory way does quite a bit of weakening your stance (hint-the word is "hypocrite").

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Loy

Peter-and what exactly are those rights? (And don't use the "right to not be fucked with unneccesarily" line. That isn't a "right" as much as it's a guidline for discipline). On a legal level, anybody under 18 is a charge, and not a citizen. Now, whilst the SC has ruled that rights do extend to "non-citizens", charges are another realm of legalese entirely. Charges are, in a nutshell, persons incapable of making decisions for themselves. Yep, children are on the same field as brain-dead vegetables and feeble-minded seniors. And since "pagan" is a word used to describe a whole slew of religious/theological beliefs, no, it's not considered a religion.

Being a charge does not trump basic human rights, so, like brain-dead vegetables and feeble-minded seniors, children have basic human rights on a legal level and other levels too. I'm not familiar with the "right to not be fucked with unneccesarily" thing, which I'm guessing is one of those pre-packed apologetic arguments, but if I were, I wouldn't use it.

Unless that's what human rights are.

In which case I suppose I am.

[Spooky_Gurl]

Originally Posted by Kettu

my school just doesnt really care. I mean as long as your not naked, or hurting someone, your fine.

Same here. They don't give a flying fuck what we say or do, as long as your not hurting someone physically. So I guess I'm all good. However I hate the stupid discrimination junk It just doesn't work with me.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by Peter

Is "pagan" actually recognised as a religion there?

Actually, I have two good friends in the Army, who have "Pagan" as their religion of choice on their dog tags..

[Fenris]

And "men who wear suits all day"? Sorry, but complaining about singling people out, then using this line in a desulatory way does quite a bit of weakening your stance (hint-the word is "hypocrite").

By stating that the men who make the rules wear suits all day i was trying to emphasize the point that the people in charge clearly do not value showing individuality and creativity through dress. There's nothing wrong with conforming to the established system and dressing completly as expected, but it does tend to signify some underlying differences from people who feel the need to dress "gothic". I see how it seemed like i was trying to insult them but i really wasn't, i just tend to write with a cynical tone.

I do see your point about the spiked wristbands, and i agree to a certain point. If you want to wear a wristband covered with 4" harware store nails then it's obviously a problem, but wearing a leather wristband with dulled 1/4 inch spikes isn't nearly as much of an issue. If administrators generally objected to certain aspects of dress on the grounds that they could easily be weapons it'd be one thing, objecting because it's not good christian dress or because it's offensive to a few people is another.

Also i'm not trying to claim goth or pagan as religions, though you could make a convincing case for general paganism as a religion. They're not trying to persecute a specific religion, they're trying to ban things that aren't Christian. It's like saying that you don't have to be Christian at school, but you do have to dress, speak, and act like it. If people are being punished for displaying non-christian beliefs then others should be punished equally for displaying christian beliefs.

Well that's what i think, hope it doesn't start a flame war, but i'll be back in about 10 hours if it does.

[Sakred_Winter]

There is so much debating going on as of yet I see...

I was asked to take out my lip piercing, because one of my teachers from last year (he hates me) told the office it was distracting. While still allowing other facial piercings. I'm working on getting more grounds for a lawsuit as of yet.

I don't mean to complain about the putrid stain on the American Educational System that is my school, but it's really nice to get so much feedback on this subject. Know what's going on in other schools, much more educated people voicing opinions, though a little bit callously. But it's deffinetly refreshing, for people to say what they really think and not feed you a bunch of candy-flavored bullshit. Thank you Loy.

Also, once again on the subject of my school, I have been blocked off from the internet because I visit ALOT of Pagan/Wiccan sites, and Goth sites and forums. I have yet to find out if this is absolutely true, though...I will write more on it tomorrow.

[ExistentialDisorder]

Ok, I read something very similar just the other day, about a 16 year old boy in CA who was suspended from his school because of the way he was dressed, which the school claimed was distracting. He and his mother countered the school and the school board with religious discrimination, claiming that his style of dress was reflective of his and his mothers wiccan religion. Personally, I've never read anything in any wiccan rede where it states you must wear a 12" pink mohawk and paint your eyelids purple and pink, but, whatever. The fact that he was using his religion as grounds for his discrimination I personally think is bullshit, but it won him the case in the end and the school was forced to allow him back in. I think, tho I'm not possitive, that they are continuing to persue criminal prosecution against the school. I could be wrong on that part tho.

There should be limits when it comes to stuff kids wear to school. Those limits don't have to be so severe that it prevents you from wearing anything that isn't the latest trendy britney shit tho. But preventing extreme hair color, make up, piercings, and accessories that could be considered dangerous or used as weapons in a fight, I can clearly see them banning. Course, pencils and pens can and often are used as weapons but you don't see them banning those. And what about those metal spiked protractor things used for drawing circles? Man you could kill with that thing. In most states, if not all, body piercings that go beyond the ear lobes are illegal under the age of 18 anyway. So even with a parent's concent, I don't see them standing up in a court of law. My point is, it depends on exactly what the school is or is not doing. Have they suspended or expelled you or any of your friends? And if so, on what grounds? Those details have to be spelled out specifically in order for suspension/expulsion to be upheld. The generalization of distracting attire that violates the dress code is too vague. Keep in mind that a lot of the time schools - and businesses - will do shit they know is illegal but they get away with it because nobody ever says anything about it. Also, Paganism is a set of religious beliefs, just like Christianity. Wicca is a sect or division of paganism, just as baptist and lutherans are sects of Christianity. (I am pagan but I am not wiccan. there is a difference). That means that it has to be recognized in court, and schools cannot discriminate against it, even tho they do every day. If they reprimand you for wearing a pentacle then they have to equally reprimand those that were crosses and crucifixes. The same goes for pagan/wiccan web sites. If they're blocking them from your school computers, they have to also block christian sites, muslem sites, etc. Otherwise its religious discrimination and can be challenged in court. Not saying you'll win, but it is against the us constitution to discriminate against any religion, anywhere, regardless of what state you live in or how backwards, redneckish your immediate neighbors happen to be. They still have to follow the law.

You might also keep in mind that there are several groups out there who are trying to abolish all religion, regardless of its nature, from public schools.

On the opposite side of the fence for a moment, it seems to make the most sense for schools that have such a narrow-minded view on situations like this, to establish a specific and strict dress code for all students. Hence implementing uniforms. I never thought I'd see the day that I'd be in favor of school uniforms, but I guess I'm just getting old. (31 as of 2 hours ago). While it stifles originality and self expression - which i've always been against doing - it also prevents conflicts like this from happening. Girls wear black, knee-length straight skirts, white long-sleeved shirts, those puffy little black bowtie things, and flat black heeled shoes; boys wear black slacks, white long-sleeve shirts, black neck ties and flat black heeled shoes. No ear rings, no jewelrey except a simple wrist watch, no make-up on either gender, no funky freaky hairstyles of any kind. Period. Any violations will not be tolerated. I know its conformity at its worst state, but it also eliminates, as I said before, any and all conflict. There's no question and no generalization.

But seeing as how your school obviously does not have a dress code or uniform that comes anywhere close to that, it looks to me like you're going to have a bit of a struggle on your hands. And that struggle will most likely last a while. Possibly even longer than your entire enrollment in the school. It could happen. If you're truly adament about your possition and your rights, then fight for them. You need to get a copy of the school's policy on dress code and conduct and analyze it if you haven't done so already. Then compair it to what you and your friends have been told by teachers/faculty and then try to present it to an attourney that knows a thing or two about the school board policies in your area, and that's actually willing to support you. A lot of attourneys don't charge for first time consultations. In the mean time, if I were you I would follow their dress code to the bare minimum and make sure that what I wore pressed nerves but stayed within boundaries, for the simple pleasure it would bring knowing I was pissing them off yet they could do absolutely nothing about it. I can kind'a see where 'sleevelets' would be a no-no, since you could be hiding something up inside them. 'Course you could be hiding something up inside a long-sleave shirt too. So wear long sleeves. They can't prevent you from wearing all black now can they? While its technically clich'e goth, its the point that matters. Get yourself a pair of solid black chucks if you dont already have them - you can get them from shoe carnival pretty cheap. That's where i bought mine just a few weeks ago. Nobody can say shit about chucks. They're high tops but don't have any more laces than any other pair of high top sneakers.

Remember that less is more. Don't go way out with the stuff you wear. Don't wear stuff you know is going to violate something, like chains or spiked/studded anything. I'd personally get some permenant silver white or gray fabric paint from walmart or any other craft store and paint a pentacle on a long sleeve black shirt and dare them to say shit about it. When they start discriminating against you due to religious beliefs/expression is when you have a real solid case against them. You can't put metal skulls and cross bones on your clothing, but there's nothing that says they can't be cloth patches or painted on. Get creative. There's a lot you could do.

Shit like this makes me almost wish I was still in high school, just to challenge stupid adults. I use to wear a freakin cape to school for christ sake. A red-linered black ankle length cape I bought in a costume shop and secured across my chest with a dog's choke chain. Along with a pair of old combat boots that were chained and padlocked around the ankles, then whatever pants and long sleeved shirt I chose. I had a mohawk dyed black and braided with nylon extensions that went down to my ass. I looked like freakin predator had a love child with dracula. But I only had one teacher that didn't like me - my us history teacher. He made the mistake of commenting on the way I was dressed one day and i retorted by asking him if he was going to start buying my clothes for me. If not then shut up about it. Nothing else was said. But this was before the days of columbine where teachers weren't so paranoid. My english teacher, who was at least in her 50's at that time, always liked the way I dressed. She made jokes from time to time, but she was cool about it and was never deliberately cruel. I liked her.

Anyway, those are my suggestions. I wish ya luck.

~E.D.