The French Government bans Muslim woman from wearing the veil

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Alan

Probably because I didn't talk about Jews, I talked about Jewish people, and when you're talking about Jewish people as a people you're talking about the ethnicity. And if you read Kontan's first posts you see this is what he was talking about.

But Ashkenazi Jews, Arab Jews, Sephardic Jews, Chinese Jews all have or had different ethnic identities, not to mention several smaller groups. It is a myth that they are one ethnicity. For them to have one ethnicity, they must have a common culture, heritage, language and traditions. Despite the shared heritage and religion (which isn't always the case, as Chinese Jews as a whole lost many of their traditions and religion until Western Jews came to China) there are still too many differences between the different ethnic groups to lump them all together in the same category of one ethnicity or race. Racists would probably not know the difference, but it is in fact in error to think that the Jewish people are one united ethnicity. Anti-semeticism was mostly a religious hatred than a racial one for a very long time, Jews have in the past been forced to convert to Christianity and Islam to have their lives spared, the racist notion wasn't popular until the rise of eugenics and the fear that Jews were descendant from non-European tribes, and thats when converting could do nothing to help.

And yes I went back and he did say they were one race, which is erroneous. But he was right in that both anti-semeticism and Islamophobia are racist, not culturalism. Right for the wrong reason.

[Alan]

And that was my point. I did not say Kontan was wrong; I said he was wrong in making it so simple, something you're doing again by at once accusing me of coupling ethnicity and religion together while paradoxically only assuming I did so by taking a priori that becuase I talked about the Jewish people I must be talking about all jews regardless of ethnicity.
You're just begging the question.

[Saya]

I don't know how to make this any more clear. I'm not referring to the religious group when I said its wrong of you to say the Jewish people are all one ethnicity. I'm talking about the Jewish people as the descendants of the ancient Israelites, who dispersed into different parts of the world after the Diaspora. They share the same ancestry, but they are still made up of different races and ethnicities, as will happen when a group of people are scattered given two thousand years (and more, as other groups left before). I'm guessing the group you're referring to are the Ashkenazim, the Yiddish speaking European Jews, who aren't more racially "Jewish" than lets say Arab Jews. They are the majority, but not all there is. Despite the different races and ethnicities, they are all Jewish. They share the same ancestry, if you check their DNA most different ethnic groups will show the same Jewish ancestry, and most groups didn't get many converts, but two thousand years is a long time to be separated and expected to be all the same, especially if one group travels to Europe, another to the Middle East, another to Africa, and another to China. You are talking about a group of people who were scattered to the four winds until the founding of Israel. They have since formed different groups and ethnicities. Is that clear? You are referring to an ethnicity that either no longer exists as a single ethnicity and hasn't for a very, very long time, or you're thinking the Ashkenazim are the only legitimate ethnic Jewish group, which is grievously erroneous.

[Vivisection]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

Off the top of my head I can think of two times fashion was legislated in Europe... the Dark Ages, and Nazi Germany

What are you referring to specifically when you use Nazi Germany as an example?

[Vivisection]

Originally Posted by Alan

And that was my point...

Saya corrected you. Get over it already.

[Alan]

Saya kept combining ethnicity and religion to apparently call on my confusing ethnicity and religion.
I can't get over begging the question. It's quite simple.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Vivisection

What are you referring to specifically when you use Nazi Germany as an example?

I was talking about the armbands.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Alan

Saya kept combining ethnicity and religion to apparently call on my confusing ethnicity and religion.
I can't get over begging the question. It's quite simple.

I did no such thing in my last post, I kept religion out of it completely, even though I assert the religion is an important consideration in previous posts. I don't know how to make it more clear for you. You could read a book? Google that shit? Wikipedia? Library? Where is your evidence that the Jewish people are one single ethnicity?

[Alan]

What you can do is explain me why I should keep this conversation when you yourself said "I'm not talking about why people hate Jews or Muslims, just what they are"

All of these past pages were nothing but an endless repetitions of exactly the same thing simply because you completely abstracted your argument from its real cultural consequences (something I already mentioned to you) and then demand that I take your argument a priori as proof of itself.

This is a thread about racial hatred; Kontan talked about muslim hatred being similar to jewish hatred. I explained that it isn't, because Jewish hatred is explicitly against the Jewish ethnicity and Muslim hatred is implicit ethnic hatred masquerading as a stance against the religion.
But no, not only did you only focus on an abstracted version of what I said that only makes sense by already taking your position for granted (seriosuly, I could make a fucking parallel to complaining against Objectivism and you coming in and explaining how that's not the meaning of the word objective and therefore my complaint is invalid)
How can I make this clearer?

This is precisely why I stopped responding in this thread but fine, let's keep going and the first step is for you to rationalize how you can take the hatred out of an argument about racial hatred.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Alan

What you can do is explain me why I should keep this conversation when you yourself said "I'm not talking about why people hate Jews or Muslims, just what they are"

All of these past pages were nothing but an endless repetitions of exactly the same thing simply because you completely abstracted your argument from its real cultural consequences (something I already mentioned to you) and then demand that I take your argument a priori as proof of itself.

This is a thread about racial hatred; Kontan talked about muslim hatred being similar to jewish hatred. I explained that it isn't, because Jewish hatred is explicitly against the Jewish ethnicity and Muslim hatred is implicit ethnic hatred masquerading as a stance against the religion.
But no, not only did you only focus on an abstracted version of what I said that only makes sense by already taking your position for granted (seriosuly, I could make a fucking parallel to complaining against Objectivism and you coming in and explaining how that's not the meaning of the word objective and therefore my complaint is invalid)
How can I make this clearer?

This is precisely why I stopped responding in this thread but fine, let's keep going and the first step is for you to rationalize how you can take the hatred out of an argument about racial hatred.

You said that hatred against Jews is different than Muslim hatred because "Jews are a single ethnicity." This is INCORRECT, which is why I corrected you. You were wrong about this, that being beside the point of racism doesn't make you right.

I also did explain that hatred against Jews WAS always religious, or the racist argument was never a strong one until the rise of the idea of eugenics, and particularly Hitler's hatred for them. Before then, if a Jew converted to Christianity, they could be saved, or marry a Christian, but that wasn't the case anymore. Not so when it came to the Nazis. It can be racist, it usually does have serious racist undertones, but it can also be about religion just as well. I have heard people hate Jews for being "Christ Killers" and not Christian, a Jew who renounces their religion to them would have been okay, and while there were racist undertones, it was about religion as well. Not always the case, but the same is true when it comes to racism against Muslims.

I provided proof that Jews are not a single ethnicity, as you claimed. Your argument are that jews are one ethnic group but Muslims can be many ethnicities, ignoring that the same is of Jews. I have recounted the history of anti-semeticism, and compared that to Islamophobia. I'm not saying something and assuming you know its true, I'm trying not to treat you like a dumbass.

Lets look again at your last post.

And that was my point. I did not say Kontan was wrong; I said he was wrong in making it so simple,

Despite the fact you are reducing all Jews to a single ethnicity, either because you never knew that or that you wish to ignore my explaining of the effects of the Diaspora, being that ONE ETHNIC GROUP over two thousand years became MANY, as they are prone to do if scattered.

something you're doing again by at once accusing me of coupling ethnicity and religion

I have not. On somewhat of a tangent I did say that religion does still play an important part in that discrimination, and especially in the discussion of who is Jewish. In orthodox circles, if your father is Jewish, but you're mother is not, you're not Jewish at all. If your mother is Jewish, then you are too. In other circles, merely converting is enough to be considered "Jewish" and included. But I didn't accuse you of coupling the two, quite the opposite. I think its wrong to separate the two and say hatred against Jews is exclusively racial hatred, and that considering Jews a single race is wrong. And it still is. Saying I'm begging the question doesn't change the fact that you were wrong in that assumption. And you're doing what you accuse me of doing, simplifying a complicated issue like Jewish ethnic identity.

together while paradoxically only assuming I did so by taking a priori that becuase I talked about the Jewish people I must be talking about all jews regardless of ethnicity

Again, I have understood that you were talking about Jewish people as a single ethnicity. And you were still wrong, like I stated. What you're doing now is putting your fingers in your ears and saying "I"M NOT WRONG LALALALALALA BEGGING THE QUESTION LALALALALALALALA." You refuse to read what I'm saying, which is that a) the "Jewish People" have been separated for a very long time and developed different ethnic groups with no single ethnic group being more "jewish" than the other, and most can trace their ancestry back to ancient Israel, but regardless are different races and ethnicities. b) eliminating the religious hatred from the equation is massively simplifying the issue of anti-semeticism, and its history. And your reasoning for saying its far more racially implicit than Islamophobia rests on believing that Jewish people are one ethnicity. Which they are not. As I have tirelessly told you and explained to you and I can draw you a fucking diagram if you're still not getting it.

[Alan]

Please do.

[ssj_goku]

why do ppl hate jews anyway? they're just liek white ppl and it was a long tim ago when they killed Jesus. I thinnk you should get over it.

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

LMAO Goku..


THIS thread has become a total shit fest.
If I could nuke it I would.
G.net seems to be dying.

[Alan]

What a fascist statement.

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

LMAO.... I've been living in a Fascist country for 8 FUCKING MONTHS... that shit rubs off on you.

[Saya]

Japan is a democracy, not a fascist state. Jeezy Chreezy.

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

I am aware that Japan is a Democracy.
But seeing as everyone around me in this fucking country is trying to run my life: I feel like im being crushed under Fascist rule... (maybe this is a critique of the culture as a whole or of the people who I have been stuck with. I am soooooo happy I wasnt born here because I would follow all the other kids and jump in front of a fucking Shinkansen(bullet train))


Seriously I have been given a lecture on how to properly fold my panties!!!
They attempt to control my life down to the most minute detail. Ive resorted to getting drunk of my ass every chance I get....

Im being a douche. Japan is a cool country and Im gonna come back here later on in life. I actually like Japan despite the shit this year has been.

They CRUSH their children down into the dirt.

[Saya]

Yes, you are being a douche, and you sound like a text book case of culture shock. Collectivism does not equal fascism. Maybe you shouldn't be talking about politics until you're in a better state of mind.

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

My state of mind is just fucking dandy. Although I admit I should of saved this for a rant thread. I'll talk about politics whenever I want. I'm not looking for a fight. I just dont really care to have you telling me when or how or on what I should talk. Thanks anyway though.


Also: I'm sure that my particular situation is not by any means the norm of life in Japan. My year has been shit but Japan isn’t inherently this craptastic. I'm 100% sure. I'm with AFS (America Field Services: and international exchange program) and the Japanese branch of this organization is horribly staffed and managed. I have been short changed repeatedly and they seem unable to do their jobs properly. I'm frustrated with them and with the situations they have put me in. I am also frustrated that they encourage Hfamilies to be prying and overbearing beyond to the point of madness. Im sure that most of these people wouldn’t dream of behaving as they do if AFS were not telling them it "is the right thing to do."

I don't see what Collectivism has to do with the way in which my panties are folded etc. And it seriously creeps me the fuck out that when Im not home people feel they have the right to look at/touch my panties. I have various problems along these lines.

I don't think its culture shock. In fact I really like Japan. And I plan to live here later on. I simply HATE the situation im in now. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Japanese kids going to the USA have similar problems. While a small amount of my discontent has to do with culture, the large part of it has to do with power tripping assholes who use the excuse of "cultural differences" any time its advantageous to them to screw me (or any other exchange student) over.

There are a few things about Japanese culture/people that bug me but they are in no way large enough to make me HATE this experience the way I do. If I were rid of AFS and on my own I'm sure I might just have a really GOOD time here.

Sorry for taking my anger at Japanese AFS and Hfamilies out on the whole country.

[Alan]

Christ, I forgot how big of an idiot you are.
"I don't care, I'm not looking for a fight, I just want to retardedly call fascism anything that I want because *teehee* that's how politics work"

[Saya]

Not culture shock? Alright then, you're 100% idiot.

[OnyxBat]

Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!

Seriously I have been given a lecture on how to properly fold my panties!!!

Shut that whole in your face and start folding! god damn it! cant learn how to fold panties.god.

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

I exaggerated by calling Japan (as a whole) a Fascist country. I was venting to you the same way I might vent to a friend about it. I find this to be a much better place to put my feelings than in the faces of the actual offenders.

I’m not wrong, however, in that I have experienced damn near fascist behavior. Why don’t you move here and live in my particular predicament and see how you like it. I highly doubt that you, Alan, would take kindly to it. Particular people (like my chapter leader) can have fascist tendencies even if he/she lives in a country with a democratic government.

I said I was living in fascist country I should have said “I am surrounded by people who think that the best way to deal with me (and the other exchange students) is with fascist rule.” It’s not just about folding my panties, that was just one example of irritation (and I did comply and fold them and submit to inspection etc). It’s basically the total disregard of my opinions, privacy, preferences and worth. I have numerous times simply been ignored and never informed of important decisions made about my life by third parties. And when I ask to be included in discussions that effect me I’m simply told “ if you don’t like the policy and rules that we just made up to fit our needs at this moment then leave.” I’ve read the goddamned rule book I know what it says yet some how the rules change anytime it suits them. I think that this organization is run in a largely Fascist way and anytime anyone challenges them they just claim it’s a “cultural difference” That this is how “Japan works” Its bullshit.

I don’t appreciate you calling me an idiot. It’s needlessly rude. I actually liked you (Saya/Alan). I don’t see why you feel the need to be mean when you could simply talk to me in a civil manner.

OnyxBat: I know how to fold panties. I’ve done it. I simply think is absurd that someone else should go into my personal belongings to inspect the way in which I folded them. I complied with their demands because it wasn’t a battle worth fighting. That doesn’t mean that they were right or warranted in their actions.
I’ve bent over backwards to satisfy the demands of AFS etc yet they seem 100% unwilling to accept any form of compromise. Its total submission or nothing. I am not a beggar at their door I am an exchange student and AFS has been paid to host me in Japan. I think that I have the right to hold them to certain standards. I am frustrated with their FASCIST style of governing the program.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by BLEED REBELION!!!

I don’t see why you feel the need to be mean when you could simply talk to me in a civil manner.

Because it's fucking idiotically fascist to pass judgment on people, say you would just as well kill them if you could, declare anything that just happens to send you into a bitchfit the epitome of repression, AND THEN claim moral superiority just because of etiquette.

[BLEED REBELION!!!]

I said I would nuke the THREAD if I could. Obviously not to be taken literally as its a fucking thread on the internet. I didnt say I wanted to nuke you, or French people, or Japanese people. I think the thread became a failure thats all. I'm sick of pointless bickering (sp?).

Thats not at all reason for you to speak to me in such a way. I never claimed moral superiority I'm just saying that there is no need for you to post "Christ, I forgot how big of an idiot you are." or for Saya to post "you're 100% idiot."
Its has no point other than meaness.