Atheism+

[ape descendant]

Yeah, calm down womens, you so upity and worked up, this ain't nothin' to be mad about at all.

[AshleyO]

In which I take a Men's Rights Advocate to task.

" Nothing wrong with [men] asking for equal social justice: leaving our genitals alone at birth, being handed equal prison terms, being afforded the same opportunity to available mental and healthcare, not restricting men's sports in the name of "equal number of athletes" (see Title IX), not being vilified (nearly always wrongly) for being male. It's that sort of thing."

He fails to understand that patriarchy doesn't necessarily mean that society is lighter on men. It's just that the genders experience patriarchy differently.

Circumcision. Feminists obviously understand the problems with this. In fact, it doesn't take a feminist to understand the problem and why it's wrong. Circumcision is wrong because it comes from a false place of belief, an appeal to tradition, and a lack of consent from the baby involved. ANYONE can see that.

Prison terms. He's got a point. But it comes again from the wrong place. First, the prison sentences are racist more than sexist. However, the doling out of justice is still patriarchal. The patriarchy expects men to be self sufficient, orderly, strong, and intelligent. Failure to do this when they break the law can determine the nature of the sentencing. However, it is also the patriarchal aspects of our culture that sees the criminal woman as less severe BECAUSE we expect women to be meek, obedient, weak, and passive. So because of this view of women, the patriarchy tends to go lighter on women according to the nature of the crime in question. None of this has to do with women or feminism. Women did not define the male gender role.

Mental health. The patriarchy expects men to be strong, bottle up their problems, and deal with their issues without help. This is what patriarchal culture expects a man to do and be. Feminism did not make it harder for a man to obtain mental health care. Women didn't do that.

Sports. No. He just needs to shut up about that. The NFL isn't going to go away just because women start boxing more. The WNBA isn't going to make NBA magically disappear.

Male vilification. He doesn't understand that he's not being vilified because he's got a dick. He's vilified because he's denying male privilege and denying the existence of patriarchy.

" The feminists of yesteryear fought nobly and hard for social justice, something with sticking power, something with substance. Today's feminist movement looks to control men as a sort of payback it seems and to only paint them as horrible members of society unless they're willing to suck the tit until their death, and making basic social orders difficult for men to access so that some women may reap the benefits (custody battles, WIC, government programs, healthcare). This whole war of genders is out of control. If we afford one aspect or right to one gender, then the other must indisputably also be included. It's a simple equation, really."

It is a simple equation. He's right. All genders should get the same benefits. The sexism he's seeing is a result of patriarchal culture. Refer back to the other points made in the first part of my post. Feminism didn't make it unfair. Women didn't make it unfair. He really wants to ignore male privilege. The benefits that he isn't entitled to because he's a man and that women get is not explicitly due to women or even feminism for that matter. The patriarchal culture tells him that he's a man; he doesn't need that kind of help... ever. He can get a job and shut up and work like every other able bodied man. That's PATRIARCHY talking to him, NOT feminism. NOT A+.

"Male privilege" is an illusion. Men and women are on different ends of the same spectrum so each side can make equal argument of "privilege" to the other."

No they are not. The privileges that he thinks he perceives that women have over men is NOT created on women's terms. They were created on patriarchal impositions to the woman. Patriarchy created these social divisions on public allowances because patriarchy views women as weak and men as not in need of social assistance. Again, patriarchy DEMANDS that the man be unrealistically strong and independent from society while it also imposes on women to be weak. None of this was decided on feminist or women's terms.

" Crimes against men by women go largely unreported or further pursued by law enforcement."

Quite possibly due to the fact that in patriarchy, it is shameful for a man to be usurped by a woman. If a man is a victim of a crime that a woman commits, the patriarchal culture deems him weak and that he should be embarrassed for being less of a man.

"Unsubstantiated crime allegations against men is also notably high. Crimes overall against men are exponentially higher than that of men on women. Men are humiliated in movies by women, but never the other way around -- that would be -- gasp! -- sexist!"

Yo, it's **** culture. Due to the impositions of male privilege; many innocent men are accused of things they never did. Problem is, the **** culture takes half of the population and saddles them in a world where sexual assault and harassment are literally around the corner and on a daily basis. Women have to ALWAYS consider safety in public first as a very REAL REAL reality in which men don't have to worry about. As a man, I NEVER have to worry about a woman or a group of women cat calling me or making me feel unsafe because they think I'm just a piece of ass that they're entitled to encroach upon. Women on the other hand, have to deal with this on a daily basis. I don't even have to think of myself in terms of a gender. I don't have to think about myself as a male. That is my privilege. My gender is not a deterrent to who I am, but most usually a positive. I get to enjoy either gender neutral experiences or experiences where my status is unduly uplifted because I am a strapping young man. The only time this might be the other way around is if I'm around feminist comrades in where all I HAVE to actually do is keep mindful of my male privilege. This is not a deterrent to social justice. This is not unfair to me as a man; to be reminded and be mindful of my privilege. To assume otherwise is unjust.

"Genital humor is always at the expense of men, not women."

Patently false. Tits and vaginas are made fun of all the time.

"If a man doesn't protect his family, he is a coward;"

Because of patriarchy, not because of women or feminism.

" but if a woman doesn't, she's in distress."

Patriarchy, not feminism.

" If a man commits suicide (which is 3x higher than women) he's a coward."

Patriarchy culture

"If a woman does it, it must be illness."

Patriarchy culture

" If a woman is scantily clad, sitting on a car, it's ****-culture objectification, but if David Beckham launches his tightly-hugged member across a billboard it's savvy and acceptable.

This is a false assumption that genders are already equal. We do not live in a post sexist society. Until we get to that point, it is wrong to try and behave as if we really ARE a post sexist society.

" The double standards in America concerning our genders is disturbingly exceptional."

Our culture is exceptionally patriarchal. What does he expect?

"Healthy white males are the least protected class in America, so this "privilege" garbage is meaningless rhetoric."

This is patently UNTRUE to the point that it's not even worth explaining. I'll just write this off as sexist and racist because fuck this statement.

" People need to accept that certain genders excel at different tasks, and that if there is a social stigma or issue for one gender, it likely hits the other gender in just as remarkable a nature."

Of course. But this doesn't mean that social justice ISN'T necessary. It means it's an emergency.

" To claim that MRAs are assholes is nothing shy of demonstrating the ability to be shallow, caused by the callousness of being told that to think otherwise makes you inferior and a sexist, much like in the same way when someone disagrees with a political stand made by Obama, that person is labeled a racist, rather than someone merely having a different political view."

No it's not. MRAs are usually sexist because they ignore and deny that white male privilege exists. An MRA group that doesn't deny these things and tries to understand those privileges and understand where the injustices against the male gender role actually comes from would actually help them be better participants of social justice. Women have not imposed unreasonable standards against men. Men did that to themselves.

" Men and women are not -- and never will be -- equal. Sexual dimorphism is what evolution produced for us, and because we're just moving away from the tree tops, we're not very close to a single unification of equalness."

We aren't on our way to a single universal equalness. Men ARE statistically stronger physically and such. Men will someday have to account for their privileges. That is NOT unreasonable or unjust. This guy... he doesn't want to take responsibility for his privileges and wants to deny them.

I've got nothing much to say on the rest.

Hopefully I did well here.

[Versus]

Healthy white males are the least protected class in America, so this "privilege" garbage is meaningless rhetoric.

[AshleyO]

Matter of fact, you just reframed things so that you're begging the question. The correct question would be: demonstrate how I am actually put upon by both women and men at all being that I'm a white male. That's tricky not knowing anything about you as an individual. White male who grew up in a California suburb with a doctor dad, or white male who grew up in a trailer in the Ozarks? There is no singular "white male experience" other than a few obvious things.

As for privileges women have that men do not..how much time do you have?

People are unlikely to view me as a predator for wanting to work with children.
There are more educational grants available to me than there are for men.
Taking less pay for "passion work" is not disparaged as much for my gender.
My chances of being murdered are lower.
My chances of being a victim of violent crime are lower.
If I break the law I am far more likely to get a shorter sentence than a male for the same crime.
If I work in a profession that is male-dominated, people are more likely to see me as noble and brave, not deficient in some manner.
I endure far less rejection in dating since men are expected to be the initiators.
If I show weakness, others are more likely to console me than to view me with contempt and disdain.
It's socially acceptable for me to have more emotions than just anger.
If I do display anger, people are unlikely to believe I'm going to hurt them.
Less is expected of me financially in a courtship scenario.
If I am unemployed and my partner supports me during that time, it's less likely I will be viewed as a lazy deadbeat.
If I am suffering domestic violence, there are greater resources available to help me escape.
Domestic violence against me isn't treated as if it's nonexistent and invisible.
I am far more likely to be awarded alimony and children in a divorce, regardless of my employment status or fitness.
I am not expected to carry greater physical burdens in the workplace or relationships.
Status is less important in my value to society.
I can form intimate relationships with others of my sex without my sexuality being questioned.
I can enjoy a wider range of activities and interests without my sexuality being questioned.
I have more options for escaping poverty and dysfunction than joining the military.
I receive more public health funding than men.
Others are more likely to come to my aid if I'm in distress.
I have much more leeway in how I dress.
I'm less likely to be shamed for being sexually inactive.
I'm less likely to be demonized for my sexuality.
It's easier for me to find a partner at my level.
My role in child-rearing is seen as much important.
People are more likely to assume I am empathetic.

Just a few.

Camille Paglia made a great observation about feminism in that the women on campus who came from working class backgrounds tended to eschew it, while those from middle and upper middle class backgrounds embraced it. I think the same can be said for males. It's a great hustle..the feminist line is that everyone has privilege, which is not something to be ashamed of, just aware of..but they never check their own privilege, just tell "white males" to check theirs. Every person uses their advantages to their benefit, but if you're a "white male" you're expected to cast away those advantages like you're fucking Siddhartha or something? Nice hustle, but I can't afford it. Maybe you can. If so, let me know how the weather is up on that cross.

And then this happened. *shrugs*

[Saya]

Oh, Camille Paglia. Someone bought me one of her books because he thought it was a legit feminist book. I couldn't get through it, for a lesbian she's severely homophobic.

[Versus]

I remember Saya made a thread about feminisms accessibility, but I suspect she has a lot more to say then what I want to point out.

[Versus]

And she beat me to it.

[AshleyO]

Saya.

The guy who wrote that asserted that women have privileges. However, he implied that these privileges come from a feminist place or that only women perpetuate these privileges. See the post above again. I debate with some of these alleged privileges. Some are blatantly false.

However, there was a good point here anyway. I feel this guy is SLIGHTLY right.

My counter argument was that the benefits he perceives women enjoying in this culture were mostly due to patriarchal social norms such as women being judged as more compassionate out of hand. I had also asserted that patriarchy is the cause of males suffering gender norms; having to always be stoic, never able to show compassion nakedly in front of large groups, denying that a male could enjoy playing with Barbie, ect. The gender norms and expectations males DO actually suffer doesn't come from women or feminist, but is the other side of the patriarchal coin. I was left asking "What would a man do if he had free agency in determining his own gender identification without vilification by detouring on the beaten path of maleness?"

Would I be wrong to see this aspect as a feminist issue?

[AshleyO]

I just got accused of being lazy because the privileges that the guy thought women had were due to patriarchal gender norms.

[Saya]

The problem here, and its something the feminist movement has had to acknowledge since the second wave, is that in absolutist terms like that, not all women have privilege over all men, just like not all women have privilege over all men. This is why I like the term kyriarchy.

For example, I have white privilege that gives me privilege over black men. Black men don't oppress me. Black men might oppress black women, however. I don't have privilege over white men, particularly straight cis men. I probably have privilege over gay or trans men, if I were to attempt to pass for straight at least.

So when he says men are more likely to be the victims of violence, who is doing violence to these men? Who are these men who are the victims of violence? Who is disproportionately represented in the prison system? Its men of colour who over represented their overall population: http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp

There is far more at play at male oppression than just "women have more privilege." It has a lot to do with racism, classism, transphobia and homophobia.

I could probably talk more but I got post-colonial readings to do if classes go ahead tomorrow so Versus is telling me to stop XD

[AshleyO]

I liked your input.

I felt he was being dishonest with his outlook to ignore racism and lift up black men as equal to white in our society as if the imprisonment of black men are somehow a transgression against him as a man.

It doesn't make sense that way.

I kind of always understood that feminism tries to attack the problems of hetero-normative pressure on men by advocating for the advancement of queer folk and other orientations and other gender identities. Therefore, the feminist man certainly has a dog in this race as well.

But I don't think it's an honest place to be an MRA out of spite or out of reaction to feminism because they will definitely get it wrong and end up being sexist.

[Saya]

I DO know of "masculinists" who are feminist allies, to be fair. Like I had a professor (who incidentally, wasn't white and understood the dynamics of kyriarchy that way) who taught Women's Studies at my campus. He did his doctorate on hypermasculinity in rap music and he was studying the Promise Keepers here, who are basically macho Christian men who go out in the woods and cry together and reinforce notions of heterosexuality at the end.

Also bell hooks and Susan Faludi have books on how patriarchal ideals are hard on men and are sympathetic that with the rise of feminism, it leaves them without the role of dominance and its hard to replace it with a new role. I know Audre Lorde also wrote about raising her son as a lesbian and as a feminist.

[CuckooTuli]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

I just got accused of being lazy because the privileges that the guy thought women had were due to patriarchal gender norms.

Yeah - something I've notice about anti-feminist MRA is that they tend to weigh all kinds of power equally, and have no concept of compensatory power. A lot of the ones I've argued with cite the expectation of chilvalry, as evidence that power relations have now become skewed in favour of women - like "Uh-huh so how come WOMEN WANT EQUALITY but I'm still expected to open doors for them?" Don't confuse power with a throwback to a custom that's really a nod to the fact that you HAVE no power, beyond that which men are good/virtuous enough to grant you. A lot of the 'female privileges' named above are more like consolation prizes, when you locate them in the wider context.

There are very definitely ways in which patriarchy privileges women and disadvantages men. However I get really fucking annoyed by MRA who seek to suggest that these are equal to, or greater than, the ways it disadvantages women, and are hostile towards feminists for this reason. They're trying to create exactly the kind of one-sided discourse they accuse feminism of propogating.

In fact, the main problem I have with MRA activists is that most of the ones I've encountered are downright hostile towards feminism, treating it as the enemy rather a potential force for alliance. Which leads me to suspect that they don't give a shit about dismantling patriarchy and creating "equality for ALL!!!" that they're so fond of yelling about whenever someone brings up the oppression of women.

[edorien]

Having looked through the list of the "privileges" in ashley's post, I can't help feeling that it's rather painfully westernocentric from the points:

My chances of being murdered are lower.
My chances of being a victim of violent crime are lower.
I'm less likely to be shamed for being sexually inactive.
I'm less likely to be demonized for my sexuality.
I can form intimate relationships with others of my sex without my sexuality being questioned.
I can enjoy a wider range of activities and interests without my sexuality being questioned.

while the majority of the others:

If I break the law I am far more likely to get a shorter sentence than a male for the same crime.
I endure far less rejection in dating since men are expected to be the initiators.
If I show weakness, others are more likely to console me than to view me with contempt and disdain.
It's socially acceptable for me to have more emotions than just anger.
If I do display anger, people are unlikely to believe I'm going to hurt them.
If I am suffering domestic violence, there are greater resources available to help me escape.
Domestic violence against me isn't treated as if it's nonexistent and invisible.
I am not expected to carry greater physical burdens in the workplace or relationships.
If I work in a profession that is male-dominated, people are more likely to see me as noble and brave, not deficient in some manner.
Others are more likely to come to my aid if I'm in distress.

Less is expected of me financially in a courtship scenario.
If I am unemployed and my partner supports me during that time, it's less likely I will be viewed as a lazy deadbeat.
Taking less pay for "passion work" is not disparaged as much for my gender.
I have more options for escaping poverty and dysfunction than joining the military.
Status is less important in my value to society.

People are unlikely to view me as a predator for wanting to work with children.
My role in child-rearing is seen as much important.
People are more likely to assume I am empathetic.

seem to be largely sided effects of a system reliant on women as weak, financially inept and well, servants.

There are a few point is there though that are at least more interesting in regards to the percieved imbalances:

I am far more likely to be awarded alimony and children in a divorce, regardless of my employment status or fitness.

Ideally, following a divorce, there should be equal custody of any children and joint responsibility in providing for them. However, I see this "privilege" more as a persistent bias in western legal systems from the ingrained beliefs that women are expected to look after children and are in need of financial support due to their inherent weakness.

I receive more public health funding than men.

Again, I see this arising from the partly from the idea that women are weak/ objects to be protected, rather than any overt/intentional discrimination against men, it's just another part of the distorted system.
That said the fund situation is really rather shameful, as for example there are roughly the same no. of breast (~98% women, 2% men) and prostate (100.0% men) cancer sufferers, while breast cancer gets roughly 2.5 time the amount of funding.

As most MRAs seem to assume that these imbalances are due to the rather limited successes of feminism, I have a hard time taking them seriously,even as someone who is rather disturbed by some of the more radical strains of feminism.

I feel that, this claim is slightly different:

I have much more leeway in how I dress.

as this leeway is largely a result of feminism reducing the expectation that women should wear pretty but mobility restricting garments.
Honestly, while this is an issue, I can't really see how one would go about persuading the average male to wear such clothing.

On a slightly related note, I'm always disappointed when I speak with the atheist community as the views generally tend to amount to we want everything to remain the same, just without a (flying spagetti monster).

[Versus]

I was talking with AshleyO on spacebook and it just reminded me of how infuriating this approach is. Wanting social equality is great, but shiting on everybody else in the process is completely different. This is exactly why I brought up and compared MRAs as I argued with Desp when he said theistic privilege.

And the claim that feminist are making a power grab: What the fuck? People say that in response to activist against racism, homophobia, Islamaphobia. It's a bag of tricks that's distributed en mass, I swear.

[Versus]

Edorien, it's also important to remember that those privileges are far from a universal experience and I'd even argue with a few of them. One in particular is blatantly inaccurate; Having a job in a male dominated working environment, women are definitely not seen as noble or brave.

[edorien]

Of course, privileges are dependent on location, race, people, profession, etc, but generally there will be some form of privilege present in an interaction

For example, in my chosen field, women are rather tragically portrayed as being brave just because they're women :

Brave women required

India’s Brave New Women Scientists

A Gathering of “Brave and Brilliant” Women

[ape descendant]

Figured I'd go through a few of these and offer a rebuttal.

My chances of being murdered are lower. Though, my chances of being murdered by my partner are MUCH higher.

My chances of being a victim of violent crime are lower. Never mind that my chances of being r.ped are much higher and if I talk about it I am likely to be silenced and blamed more than the person who actually did it to me.

If I work in a profession that is male-dominated, people are more likely to see me as noble and brave, not deficient in some manner. Because things associated with my gender are seen as less noble and worthy. Also, I will probably not be seen so much as "noble and brave" but will be judged harsher than the men around me and be forced to work harder and faster just to be seen as competent, I'll most likely be paid less for the same work and still have to deal with the men I work with sexualizing me and being overly defensive and hostile towards me since they feel I've invaded their little "boys club".

I endure far less rejection in dating since men are expected to be the initiators.Because I am expected to be passive and receptive, and am frowned upon if I am too forward. If I do I will be painted as desparate or "too manly" or aggressive.

If I show weakness, others are more likely to console me than to view me with contempt and disdain. Because I'm a woman and women are assumed to be weak and incompetent.

It's socially acceptable for me to have more emotions than just anger. Because I am seen as overly emotional or hysterical all the time, especially if I express anger.


If I do display anger, people are unlikely to believe I'm going to hurt them.Because I've been told my whole life that it is unacceptable for me express anger and hurt people, as I'm supposed to be nurturing to others, even to my own detriment.

Less is expected of me financially in a courtship scenario.Though I am expected to reciprocate with sex and affection. If I do not I'm seen as a frigid, ungrateful bitch.

If I am unemployed and my partner supports me during that time, it's less likely I will be viewed as a lazy deadbeat. Never mind that whether I'm working or not, I am expected to do most of the cooking, cleaning and child care whether I don't work, work part time or am holding down a full time career.

If I am suffering domestic violence, there are greater resources available to help me escape. Domestic violence against me isn't treated as if it's nonexistent and invisible. I am far more likely to suffer from domestic violence and in some circles it is still seen as permissible. If I leave I am far more likely to have my abusive partner hunt me down, and far more likely to be killed by him for leaving.


I am far more likely to be awarded alimony and children in a divorce, regardless of my employment status or fitness. Because men often don't try for residential custody of the children and when they do, they win full custody 60% of the time. Also women are expected to carry the burden of raising the children first hand as we are supposed to be the main care takers and nurturers of the human race, if we aren't sufficiently nurturing and sweet, people treat us as if there's something wrong with us.

I am not expected to carry greater physical burdens in the workplace or relationships. Because it is assumed that I cannot handle them, and others will often grab things from me that I'm handling just fine, without bothering to ask or check with me before hand.

Status is less important in my value to society. Because I'm supposed to find a man from whom to get my status, as I'm not seen as having my own intrinsic societal worth.

I can form intimate relationships with others of my sex without my sexuality being questioned. Nevermind the assumption that women are too catty or bitchy to have close, dependable friendships.

I can enjoy a wider range of activities and interests without my sexuality being questioned. Nevermind that if I'm into something like football or baseball I'll have a hard time getting on a team due to my gender. If I'm in to something intellectual I won't be taken seriously as a competitor regardless of how good I actually am.

I have more options for escaping poverty and dysfunction than joining the military. I am more likely to live in poverty and dysfunction than a man. I am more likely to be trapped into an unhealthy relationship due to finances, especially if there are children involved.

I receive more public health funding than men. Because women's health is expensive, especially when it comes to birth control (most forms of which are my responsibility and work in/on the female body) and care for our complex and often painful reproductive system.

I have much more leeway in how I dress. As long as I don't mind having people openly tell me that I dress too manly, dykey, feminine, outlandish or slutty. And then blame me for dressing poorly when I'm harassed or assaulted.

I'm less likely to be shamed for being sexually inactive. Because it is assumed that women don't enjoy or want sex. I am, however, more likely to be shamed for being openly, sexually active, or even just wearing clothing that could be construed as sexually suggestive. If I am ever sexually assaulted, this will be brought up against me, in an attempt to exonerate the asshole who assaulted me.

I'm less likely to be demonized for my sexuality.As long as I'm a straight and cisgender. I will be demonized for being a lesbian, trans gender and often for being bi-sexual as well.

If I'm a lesbian, there's obviously something wrong with me and I will be harassed by straight men who think I just need their magical cawk.

If I am a transwoman, it will be assumed that I'm just trying to "trick straight dudes into doing gay stuff" and I face danger every time I try to date someone.

If I'm bi-sexual I'll be told that I'm just confused, greedy or that I'm just an inexcusable slut.

It's easier for me to find a partner at my level. As long as I am conventionally attractive.

My role in child-rearing is seen as much important. As I've been assigned child care as a role due to my gender whether I wish to do it or am good at it or not. If I have children with a man, I will be expected to do most of the work related to rearing the children and keeping the home, if I do not I will be subject to derision and ridicule.

People are more likely to see me as empathetic Because I am expected to nurture and take care of every one around me, and if I fail to be "sufficiently" nurturiing and empathetic towards every one, others will see me as cold, heartless and unworthy of understanding.

[Acharis]

^ You beat me to it Ape, great post. Most of these so-called "advantages" are double edged, and fall under the umbrella of benevolent sexism, actually reinforcing that women are "less than".

I'll pay the custody and child support one though. The current patriarchal bias in society makes it tough on men who do want to be loving involved fathers and women who don't want to be mothers. Also the current patriarchal attitude saying only women are victims (of DV or sexual assault) hurts men and insults women.




As for the last few pages, holy fuck. The problem isn't that someone cracked onto someone else.

The problem is that this guy cornered this woman in a confined enclosed space to proposition her sexually, at an hour where there was nobody else around and surrounding rooms she could potentially be pulled into- and then a bunch of entitled guys tore down anybody who said that wasn't the acceptable way to go about it.


Dafuq. Does anybody who hasn't lived it realise how threatening unwanted sexual advances can be from someone who has the ability to use force against you? Especially if their actions are unpredictable or culturally sanctioned?

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/gu...t-being-maced/

These men who get you in an awkward scenario could take a turn down gracefully, or flip out and start abusing you while you're trapped there. You can't know.


It sucks that people who (rightfully) object strenuously to unwanted religious solicitation can't get this basic shit.

[Versus]

I posted that same link. XD

[Acharis]

It seems great minds think alike - I'll have to read this whole thread after taking precautions against my head exploding.

If this Jonathon chap comes back I'm happy to tell him all my experiences of being threatened and harassed, and why they weren't hunky dory. Or overreaction on my part.

[Acharis]

Actually, this is a good link too.

If three pages is TL;DR, simply skip to the third page.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Acharis

It seems great minds think alike - I'll have to read this whole thread after taking precautions against my head exploding.

To be fair, I had to ask Saya if she thought it would be okay if I posted it. I obviously have no resonance with it.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by edorien

Of course, privileges are dependent on location, race, people, profession, etc, but generally there will be some form of privilege present in an interaction

For example, in my chosen field, women are rather tragically portrayed as being brave just because they're women :

Brave women required

India’s Brave New Women Scientists

A Gathering of “Brave and Brilliant” Women

I said "privileges" facetiously. They are not privileges. At all. I think Ape Descendant made that abundantly clear. Privilege isn't privilege if it's only a circumstantial thing. White privilege doesn't suddenly go away for a white guy because he lives in China.

And why is that tragic? Women are especially disadvantaged in male dominated working environments; to chose a path with such a great deal of resistance is exceptionally brave.

[edorien]

I just sort of assumed that the word privilege would immediately be attached with to its usual connotation in the context, but I probably would have explained each point in more detail.

I'm going to have to disagree on the "privileges" not being circumstantial. There is a circumstantial element to the "privileges even though they're generally present.
Take for example, the benefits of being white in modern day USA, when compared to the case back in the 1950s. Similarly the disadvantages of being female in the west compared to the disadvantages of being female in Saudi Arabia.

Note as with privileges, I am intending to word benefits to be read with all the scorn, negativity, disgust that deserve to go with that statement.

By portraying women as brave for working in field x, it's portraying them as not normal. While it is a brave thing for an individual to do, having it portrayed as such in the media is not a good thing as it perpetuates the problem by promoting the stereotype that field-x is mostly occupied by men.

A case in point is the decline of women earning computing degrees as the stereotypes of "computer geeks" as socially awkward male with poor hygiene gained prominence (40% in the 80, 10% today US, not the sole reason obviously)