Atheism+

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

The situation bothered her because someone talked to her in a time and place that she didn't want to be talked to.

There are really only two reasonable interpretations - the guy literally just wanted coffee with her, or was using coffee as a pretext for sex. Please fucking note I said both interpretations are reasonable. Here, I'll do one better: he was clearly only interested in having sex with her. OK, great, she didn't want to, he respected her decision, they both went on their merry ways.

At that time, she didn't know if there was any danger. Fine, great, perfectly reasonable; we have no context whatsoever about body language, tone, or anything other than "He was male and they were in an elevator." If the guy pushed the issue at all, or refused to let her off the elevator without getting her number or something, I'd be totally running for my horse and lance right now to decry him as an asshole predator.

But that didn't happen. She got off the elevator, and made it her room safe. I am sorry, but being flirted with, even awkwardly, is not something I can see as a social wrong in need of redress.

You stupid motherfucker. DO YOUR FUCKING HOMEWORK. It's not that simple for everybody else like it is for you.

WOMEN ARE AFRAID TO SAY NO. WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO JUSTIFY THREATENING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Holy shit.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Versus

You stupid motherfucker. DO YOUR FUCKING HOMEWORK. It's not that simple for everybody else like it is for you.

WOMEN ARE AFRAID TO SAY NO. WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO JUSTIFY THREATENING THEM.

Holy shit.

I am not trying to justify threatening women. You can use as many profanities or capital letters as you like to suggest otherwise.

[Alan]

Versus, relax already. I was with Jonathan at first and I changed my mind because I thought it through a lot, not because someone was raging at me for not seeing what they see.
Jonathan is already trying to understand our point and half gets it already. Do you think I would have even cared to get it if someone was bitching at me that I don't regardless of my thought process?

[Solumina]

I don't think V is angry because he has made a logical decision that being angry is the best way to get through to Jonathan. I think he is angry for the same reason why I walked away from this thread for nearly an hour. The viewpoint Jonathan holds is problematic. It is insidious. It is omnipresent. Above all it is really and truly dangerous.

It is something that we should be angry about.

I fucking know that you are more likely to get people to listen to you if you are nice to them, if you cater to them, that doesn't mean that we don't have every right to express the emotions we feel and it doesn't mean that the fact that he is the one in the wrong, that he is the one speaking from privilege but we should be nice for his sake isn't really fucked up.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

The situation bothered her because someone talked to her in a time and place that she didn't want to be talked to.

I am sorry, but being flirted with, even awkwardly, is not something I can see as a social wrong in need of redress.

These are two incompatible stances.

In one, you recognize why she felt threatened. In the second, you say that it's okay. You are trying to justify that the first could okay if the man has good intentions.

What you are saying is that if a man has good intentions, it is okay for him to make a woman feel threatened. Not only that, but you're saying that it's unnecessary for her to speak out about it.

It's that kind of thinking that contributes to **** culture.

[Jonathan]

The hyperbolic retorts really aren't helping very much. I read up on what happened, watched the video of the initial account and spent a strange amount of time on this as a curiosity. It is frankly fucking astonishing that certain people cannot accept another viewpoint.

If you want to think I am a bad person because I don't lockstep with your hivemind, I don't know what to tell you.

When Alan initially had a similar interpretation of this that I do now, he wasn't a dumbshit creepy motherfucker Patriarch von Cracker. Seriously take a breath, go have some water, whatever you have to do. I'm trying to have a conversation amid clearing up bullshit strawmen.

[Solumina]

What exactly are the strawmen you feel that you are clearing up? Also specifically what retorts do you think are hyperbolic?

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Alan

Versus, relax already. I was with Jonathan at first and I changed my mind because I thought it through a lot, not because someone was raging at me for not seeing what they see.
Jonathan is already trying to understand our point and half gets it already. Do you think I would have even cared to get it if someone was bitching at me that I don't regardless of my thought process?

That's the thing. It was plainly explained to him from several perspectives and multiple times. I understand why he doesn't get it. I really, really do. It's great that you were able to realize on your own, and if he does come around eventually, that's great too. All is forgiven.

But tone policing really makes me angry. All of it makes me angry. What Solumina said.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

The hyperbolic retorts really aren't helping very much. I read up on what happened, watched the video of the initial account and spent a strange amount of time on this as a curiosity. It is frankly fucking astonishing that certain people cannot accept another viewpoint.

And don't you see your privilege? The fact that you had to choose to do a little bit of research when women do not have that choice and have to live with this knowledge? Doesn't it suggest to you that there is a whole world of experience that you are protected from? That there are things out there you that you really don't have the perspective to make conclusions on?

If you want to think I am a bad person because I don't lockstep with your hivemind, I don't know what to tell you.

It's not about being right. I give two shits about that. What makes me angry is that you can't understand that the shit you say is oppressive. It doesn't hurt you to say it, but it hurts other people when you do. You are not entitled to that.

When Alan initially had a similar interpretation of this that I do now, he wasn't a dumbshit creepy motherfucker Patriarch von Cracker. Seriously take a breath, go have some water, whatever you have to do. I'm trying to have a conversation amid clearing up bullshit strawmen.

Alan is different because he didn't dismiss when somebody pointed out racism, and he didn't unapologetically contribute to everything fucking wrong with this planet. He sat back and actually listened. And again, it's just a conversation to you. When you step away from it, it's over. It doesn't follow you everywhere you go, it's not something you live with, and it is something you can ignore.

Also, don't fucking tone police me. I don't need to be nice to you, it's a courtesy on my part when I do, not an entitlement that you possess. You're the one helping women get ignored when they speak out about **** culture, not me.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Solumina

What exactly are the strawmen you feel that you are clearing up? Also specifically what retorts do you think are hyperbolic?

Off the cuff, Versus claiming that I am justifying threatening women, Ashley falsely stating that I said Watson over-reacted, Ashley falsly stating that I believed Watson misunderstood her personal situation... That I think it is ok for men to threaten women. These are straw men because they are arguing against points I never made. I am going to assume Versus' use of the CVP epithet is hyperbolic. Suggesting I'm supporting the threatening of women clearly is.

[AshleyO]

The hyperbolic retorts really aren't helping very much. I read up on what happened, watched the video of the initial account and spent a strange amount of time on this as a curiosity. It is frankly fucking astonishing that certain people cannot accept another viewpoint.

It is. It's astonishing that you deny the points we're making or at least you only want to go half way with it because you care more about your initial intuition being right than actually looking critically at the culture that we live in and how it affects those who are not like you or I.

If you want to think I am a bad person because I don't lockstep with your hivemind, I don't know what to tell you.

I don't think you're a bad person. I think you're wrong and I think you're being a jerk, but I also think that perhaps this is one of the first times you've had to seriously contemplate how you process information from your privileged position. It was very hard for me to acknowledge that as well. It's not YOU that the rage is completely directed at. You are presenting the patriarchal attitude that permeates every aspect of our culture and it is that very entity that we are attacking. This technically isn't about you. We wouldn't be engaging with you on this so hard if we didn't give a shit. Some of us really want **** culture to disappear. The first way to do that is to have guys like you understand the other side without having to defend yourself or your own behavior. It has nothing to do with your intentions. You can't just embrace gender blindness and assume the problem of patriarchy is absolved. It isn't. It's not even a good start.

And seriously... "hivemind"? Way to minimize the message, broheim. Nothing like a good ol' dose of rugged individualism to wash your hands of your own privilege.

When Alan initially had a similar interpretation of this that I do now, he wasn't a dumbshit creepy motherfucker Patriarch von Cracker. Seriously take a breath, go have some water, whatever you have to do. I'm trying to have a conversation amid clearing up bullshit strawmen.

Cracker Von Patriarch ISN'T personal. They're expressing their anger against a very real problem that you are accidentally perpetuating. I doubt that if you sat down and thought about it more; you'd want to be a knowing agent of patriarchy once you understand why it's so bad.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Versus

And don't you see your privilege? The fact that you had to choose to do a little bit of research when women do not have that choice and have to live with this knowledge? Doesn't it suggest to you that there is a whole world of experience that you are protected from?

Everyone who wanted to comment knowledgeably had to "do a little research" because the only people directly involved were Watson and Mysterious Elevator Guy. I'm trying to look at this from the perspective of what happened (at least as much as I can with one side), and from the hillarious outpouring of opinion on this specific incident, then viewed through the lens of my personal experience which has no bearing whatsoever in this context.

It's not about being right. I give two shits about that. What makes me angry is that you can't understand that the shit you say is oppressive. It doesn't hurt you to say it, but it hurts other people when you do. You are not entitled to that.

I ain't oppressing nobody. Being talked to by someone you don't want to talk to isn't oppression - it's uncomfortably or inconvenient but it is not oppression. There is no context I will accept someone saying "Hi can I talk to you" as oppression. That is hyperbolic.

Alan is different because he didn't dismiss when somebody pointed out racism, and he didn't unapologetically contribute to everything fucking wrong with this planet. He sat back and actually listened. And again, it's just a conversation to you. When you step away from it, it's over. It doesn't follow you everywhere you go, it's not something you live with, and it is something you can ignore.

I didn't dismiss racism, racism is a real thing, there are real racists. If you're referring to an old thread, then I still believe class and economic discrimination are much more prevalent factors than ethnicity. Neighborhoods are not nearly as segregated by race as they are property values. That's irrelevent to this discussion anyway.

Also, don't fucking tone police me. I don't need to be nice to you, it's a courtesy on my part when I do, not an entitlement that you possess. You're the one helping women get ignored when they speak out about **** culture, not me.

I don't give much of a fuck about your tone, all thiogs considered, although your big fonts aren't nearly as amusing as you might think they are. I just said you're not going to be changing my mind with them.

I am not helping women get victimized. If she had been assaulted in any way I'd be in the forefront calling for the victimizer's head on a stick, I've done it in the past and will continue to do so. But trying and failing to have a conversation isn't ****. There is no equivalency you can draw that is not false. Suggesting otherwise is pretty silly. If I told a **** victim I could relate to them because this one time someone asked me over to their place for coffee they'd be justified in slapping the shit out of me.

[Versus]

Even AshleyO pissed me off earlier when he had to analyze and imagine the circumstances of the situation. I did it in my head, too. We need to work on just accepting these things at face value instead of trying to investigate; it's that kind of thinking that makes it so easy for rapist to get the benefit of the doubt.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Off the cuff, Versus claiming that I am justifying threatening women, Ashley falsely stating that I said Watson over-reacted, Ashley falsly stating that I believed Watson misunderstood her personal situation... That I think it is ok for men to threaten women. These are straw men because they are arguing against points I never made. I am going to assume Versus' use of the CVP epithet is hyperbolic. Suggesting I'm supporting the threatening of women clearly is.

You have not said "it is okay for women to be threatened" but your attitude and what you are saying supports a culture where it is okay for a woman to be threatened.

You have not said "Watson overreacted" but you are dismissive of why she felt the way she did.

You haven't said "Watson misunderstood her situation" but you argue that we need to give the man the benefit of our doubt and in turn you imply that she was wrong for not doing so.

You have not specifically made these points but these points color everything that you have said. We have brought them up not because you have consciously voiced them but because they are underlying what you say and because you may not even realize that what you are saying is perpetuating those ideas.

[AshleyO]

http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/3086...are-this-story

I just read this blog entry.

...I really want to hug my GF right now.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Versus

Even AshleyO pissed me off earlier when he had to analyze and imagine the circumstances of the situation. I did it in my head, too. We need to work on just accepting these things at face value instead of trying to investigate; it's that kind of thinking that makes it so easy for rapist to get the benefit of the doubt.

That was me thinking out loud. Personally, it was me trying to bring down my possibly privileged lens.

I apologize if it offended you guys.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

That was me thinking out loud. Personally, it was me trying to bring down my possibly privileged lens.

I apologize if it offended you guys.

I did it, too. Just in my head. That's a really good blog post, though.

[Solumina]

Shit like that is why I don't take public transit, or walk, or ride a bike. Thankfully I'm privileged enough that can usually just wait until Jake is off work and take the car and if I need to go somewhere and don't have the car I can afford a cab.

The thing I miss the very most about my old neighborhood was that it was relatively safe from those situations. I could walk to the shops and the restaurants because they were arranged around a square, every restaurant had a rather busy patio and there were always people. It was quiet enough that I could hear anyone else walking nearby but still busy enough that there were always people and places that I could easily get to if I needed help.

I didn't realize just how much I took that safety for granted until I walked to the convenience store by the entrance to my new neighborhood, thankfully all I got were a couple of jeers but still it was jarring and that was in the middle of a bright, sunny day.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

It is. It's astonishing that you deny the points we're making or at least you only want to go half way with it because you care more about your initial intuition being right than actually looking critically at the culture that we live in and how it affects those who are not like you or I.

I'm not the only person who thinks this specific incident is blown out of proportion. That doesn't mean that I don't think Watson's personal experience was inflated - it means the overall hoopla that this sparked off is amazing. I was bracing for some really harrowing personal account, and after filtering through all the build up I found out she was asked for coffee. It's going to take some work to get past that.

I don't think you're a bad person. I think you're wrong and I think you're being a jerk, but I also think that perhaps this is one of the first times you've had to seriously contemplate how you process information from your privileged position. It was very hard for me to acknowledge that as well. It's not YOU that the rage is completely directed at. You are presenting the patriarchal attitude that permeates every aspect of our culture and it is that very entity that we are attacking. This technically isn't about you. We wouldn't be engaging with you on this so hard if we didn't give a shit. Some of us really want **** culture to disappear. The first way to do that is to have guys like you understand the other side without having to defend yourself or your own behavior. It has nothing to do with your intentions. You can't just embrace gender blindness and assume the problem of patriarchy is absolved. It isn't. It's not even a good start.

Well I appreciate that. There's a weird polarizing feel, like issues are black and white. Reality is a little more nuanced than that, so it is really easy to dismiss extreme opinions. Capitalization, bold typeface, and insults don't take the place of rational argument.

And seriously... "hivemind"? Way to minimize the message, broheim. Nothing like a good ol' dose of rugged individualism to wash your hands of your own privilege.

You have to admit, there isn't a lot of dissenting opinion in this thread. Or many others. Either you agree, or you are a stupid head. Just throwing out the term "privilege" is pretty dismissive, it generally comes across as a thought-terminating cliche.

Cracker Von Patriarch ISN'T personal. They're expressing their anger against a very real problem that you are accidentally perpetuating. I doubt that if you sat down and thought about it more; you'd want to be a knowing agent of patriarchy once you understand why it's so bad.

I'm not advocating for white supremacy, female subjugation, or whatever Von is supposed to indicate, so it's kind of pointless to toss it in here.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Shit like that is why I don't take public transit, or walk, or ride a bike. Thankfully I'm privileged enough that can usually just wait until Jake is off work and take the car and if I need to go somewhere and don't have the car I can afford a cab.

The thing I miss the very most about my old neighborhood was that it was relatively safe from those situations. I could walk to the shops and the restaurants because they were arranged around a square, every restaurant had a rather busy patio and there were always people. It was quiet enough that I could hear anyone else walking nearby but still busy enough that there were always people and places that I could easily get to if I needed help.

I didn't realize just how much I took that safety for granted until I walked to the convenience store by the entrance to my new neighborhood, thankfully all I got were a couple of jeers but still it was jarring and that was in the middle of a bright, sunny day.

NYC has a fairly good public transit. Most hours of the day, there's so many people around that you rarely run into shit like that. It's different late at night though. Holy shit. NYC subways are creepy late at night. Even I get all creeped out. I can't imagine how females must feel if they had to do that.

I'm now trying to think of ways to watch over my GF IF shit starts to hit the fan on the subway or something. My initial idea is to stand in between her or any situation that might arise.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/3086...are-this-story

Yeah, this is awful. It's obnoxious when people interrupt you, but to deliberately invade personal space or be deliberately obtrusive is something any reasonable person can see as crossing a line. Especially when harassment continues past a polite and firm refusal.

This is something I can fully agree without reservation is unacceptable. It just keeps getting worse as you read. Fuck everyone on that bus except the author and business suit guy.

[Saya]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y86X8...feature=colike

Seriously, I know you're privileged and think only poor people are actually oppressed in this society. I know you'd rather ignore sexism and feel the only oppression you might feel in your life is the only oppression that exists. I know you don't want to know that there's some things you'll never know because you're a cisgender straight white man.

But for those of us who were raised as girls, we have had it drilled in our heads since we were little that if a man decides to rrape us he will and the only thing we can do about it is not give him the chance, and that means no getting drunk, no going out by yourself, no being alone with men. There will be no justice for us if a man decides to rrape us, because, society tells us, rrape is like an act of God that can't be helped, just don't get in its way. If you do, your own fault.

So no, we can't give men the benefit of the doubt. We need to survive. I put survival above giving a man the benefit of the doubt late at night when I'm trapped in an elevator with him. If I'm walking home alone at night and there's a man walking behind me, sure as shit I'm going to put my survival above his feelings and walk faster and run into a store until he's further ahead. Sure as shit I'm going to assume the worst about the guy who walked up to me without a word and tried to drag me off somewhere had the worst of intentions, and I haven't gone to a club since, because I don't feel safe. Unless when you hear the clicking of heels behind you at night, your first thought is "please, don't hurt me", you can't understand the fear we've been raised with and rely on.

As for why this particular instance got a -gate after it, seeing the lack of support from male atheists is very telling. Dawkins showing his true colours by saying western women can't complain when white men corner them to solicit them because at least white men don't chop off their genitals like those evil brown Muslims, for example, is -gate worthy. But not surprising in the least, because, after all, we're raised to know that men only love us when we bow our heads and take whatever shit they give us.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

I'm not the only person who thinks this specific incident is blown out of proportion. That doesn't mean that I don't think Watson's personal experience was inflated - it means the overall hoopla that this sparked off is amazing. I was bracing for some really harrowing personal account, and after filtering through all the build up I found out she was asked for coffee. It's going to take some work to get past that.

What's harrowing about it is YOUR reaction and the reactions of many atheists who think that the whole thing was "not a big deal". The initial incident was bad enough for her; but now the community is saying that SHE overreacted to coffee. THAT'S bad for the atheist community. It's harrowing from point zero to YOUR reaction now.

Well I appreciate that. There's a weird polarizing feel, like issues are black and white. Reality is a little more nuanced than that, so it is really easy to dismiss extreme opinions. Capitalization, bold typeface, and insults don't take the place of rational argument.

Versus was being rational with you at the get go and you refused to listen and now you're tone policing him. That's bullshit, bro.

You have to admit, there isn't a lot of dissenting opinion in this thread. Or many others. Either you agree, or you are a stupid head. Just throwing out the term "privilege" is pretty dismissive, it generally comes across as a thought-terminating cliche.

It's not that you are stupid. It's that you are ACTUALLY wrong. We throw out privilege because that's what we're seeing in action from you right now. We're not dismissing you.

I'm not advocating for white supremacy, female subjugation, or whatever Von is supposed to indicate, so it's kind of pointless to toss it in here.

You don't have to be an agent of the oppression to be institutionally racist or sexist. Institutionalized bigotry is invisible to those that are privileged. No one is saying your some HxC nazi or KKK member.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Everyone who wanted to comment knowledgeably had to "do a little research" because the only people directly involved were Watson and Mysterious Elevator Guy.

No, you're absolutely wrong. Women don't need to do a lick of research to know what happened because they live that situation every-fucking-day. It's something that you, as a man, only have to imagine until it happens to you one day. As opposed to everyday. To women, it's business as usual and there's nothing else about that needs to be understood.

I ain't oppressing nobody. Being talked to by someone you don't want to talk to isn't oppression - it's uncomfortably or inconvenient but it is not oppression. There is no context I will accept someone saying "Hi can I talk to you" as oppression. That is hyperbolic.

Read AshleyO's blog post.

I didn't dismiss racism, racism is a real thing, there are real racists.

then I still believe class and economic discrimination are much more prevalent factors than ethnicity.

I'm going to tag team with Saya while I calm down.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Saya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y86X8...feature=colike

Seriously, I know you're privileged and think only poor people are actually oppressed in this society. I know you'd rather ignore sexism and feel the only oppression you might feel in your life is the only oppression that exists. I know you don't want to know that there's some things you'll never know because you're a cisgender straight white man.

But for those of us who were raised as girls, we have had it drilled in our heads since we were little that if a man decides to rrape us he will and the only thing we can do about it is not give him the chance, and that means no getting drunk, no going out by yourself, no being alone with men. There will be no justice for us if a man decides to rrape us, because, society tells us, rrape is like an act of God that can't be helped, just don't get in its way. If you do, your own fault.

So no, we can't give men the benefit of the doubt. We need to survive. I put survival above giving a man the benefit of the doubt late at night when I'm trapped in an elevator with him. If I'm walking home alone at night and there's a man walking behind me, sure as shit I'm going to put my survival above his feelings and walk faster and run into a store until he's further ahead. Sure as shit I'm going to assume the worst about the guy who walked up to me without a word and tried to drag me off somewhere had the worst of intentions, and I haven't gone to a club since, because I don't feel safe. Unless when you hear the clicking of heels behind you at night, your first thought is "please, don't hurt me", you can't understand the fear we've been raised with and rely on.

As for why this particular instance got a -gate after it, seeing the lack of support from male atheists is very telling. Dawkins showing his true colours by saying western women can't complain when white men corner them to solicit them because at least white men don't chop off their genitals like those evil brown Muslims, for example, is -gate worthy. But not surprising in the least, because, after all, we're raised to know that men only love us when we bow our heads and take whatever shit they give us.

^This. I respected Dawkins, I really did. But this has really knocked my respect for him down quite a few notches. It's disheartening. I kind of looked up to him.