My parents

[korinna5555]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Second of all...I've always been curious to know exactly how witchcraft is supposed to help you out in daily life. Part of the reason I like Christianity is because of its practical applications: Don't steal, don't murder, love others, etc. and so on. Even Buddhism has some practical application where meditation and such are concerned...but I've never understood how witchcraft could help me in any practical way.* Could you clarify this for me?

[*It should be noted that I am not talking about Herbology or homeopathic medicine; I do not consider that part of witchcraft, since one does not have to be initiated into anything in order to use such medicinal aids.*]

Witchcraft is simply the practice of magick. Witchcraft itself is basically ritualizing intent; for example, focusing healing energy towards an ailing friend. You don't have to be initiated to practice witchcraft; herbal magick is by far my favorite.
Witchcraft is often practiced with some form of pagan religion/spirituality, which by nature is earth-based. Earth-based religions are very eco-conscious, and 99.9% of pagans would look down upon murder, theft, etc. I have yet to meet a pagan who was not accepting and loving towards others.

[Tam Li Hua]

Korinna: Thank you for explaining it. That makes a lot more sense.

So, can I assume that any 'initiations' have to do with religious belief, and religious belief only..?

[Bat Attack]

Originally Posted by $haDe

Non-Buddhist ????

How can people be non-buddhist ??
So that mean we have... Non-christian ?


It think it was too wide.

What was too wide?
I don't know what the fuck you're on about.
Of course people can be non-Buddhist. And yes people can be non-Christian too. A non-Buddhist is someone who is not Buddhist, and a non-Christian is someone who is not Christian. What's wrong with that?

Originally Posted by $haDe

Non-Buddhist ????

How can people be non-buddhist ??

Not everyone is a Buddhist you know...

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

Wicca and Witchcraft are different.
Witchcraft is centuries older than Wicca, and it believes in different dieties.
In Wicca, there is a set way of doing everything. Wicca is something which is passed down from generation to generation. They do Rituals differently to Witches. They're more into their Earth Magick and celebrating Beltane by doing a skyclad ritual. I know this because I was once part of a Wiccan Coven. Basically, Wicca is a more closed off thing.
Witchcraft, however, is more open. You don't have to do everything that the book says.
Hell, I'm still training. Next year in September, I'll be doing my Initiation rite. I'll be symbolically killed and will arise as a member of my Coven with my new name that is to only be used when I'm in the circle. I can't wait. It's a big step for a Witch, their Initiation rite.
Witchcraft is so different to Wicca, I bet you wouldn't even understand.

I mentioned Angelology because all religions believe in Angels, however different that religions perception of the Angels may be.

I don't know if that was more funny or more offensive.

[jack_the_knife]

My question on the Jedi force religion still stands unanswered...

[korinna5555]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Korinna: Thank you for explaining it. That makes a lot more sense.

So, can I assume that any 'initiations' have to do with religious belief, and religious belief only..?

Yes. I know of some who would tell you not to practice magick unless you're an initiated Wiccan, but they're twats.

[Man In Room 5]

Originally Posted by jack_the_knife

P.S: On the note of the Jedi Religion, why is it different to other religions? If you can base a religion on a book you can base one a cinematographic series.

I've actually given serious thought to this in my more bored moments and I think I have a partial answer. Firstly, I wouldn't call the Jedi beliefs a religion. Religion implies rituals like prayer, meditation, baptism, what-have-you and the Jedi seem to have very few rituals. What they do have is a philosophy or maybe a theology. They have certain beliefs that correspond to their own world view and dictate how they interact with others--and they believe this system of conduct makes them better people. But they have no dogmatic rituals such as prayer before eating, prayer before sleeping, or bathing before prayer. They also seem to have no holidays, which implies no religious observances.

You could maybe develop a philosophy from what we know about Jedi beliefs but even that would be hard. Remember, we don't have a lot of evidence. Because Jedi are fictional there are no training manuals or jedi texts. We can only look at what they do and say in the movies and guess as to their beliefs. At best, we could imitate their world view in hopes that it would make us better people.

You have argued that you should be able to make a religion based on a cinematographic series because we already have religions based on books...but the difference is that the viewers and the creators of Star Wars confess that the movies are fiction. All religions based on books that I know of are based on the assumption/belief that those books are true. Non-members might not believe in those books and there may be good evidence that those books aren't true--but believers continue to believe anyway and that belief is a big part of those religions. OTOH, you could never claim to believe the characters of Star Wars to be real. Other religions can point to their books as examples of their beliefs being manifest in the real world but if you start a Jedi religion you can't point to a fictional movie as evidence that your beliefs work in the real world.

So, while you can't make a Jedi religion you might be able to create a Jedi philosophy. In fact, it's probably been done. I'm sure there is some pop culture self-help book that's already tried it. Something like Everything I Needed to Know In Life I Learned From Star Wars, Jedi Zen for Dummies, or What Would Yoda Do.

[jack_the_knife]

I actually took a look at the Jedi Church ( how sad is that? ) and apparently it's accepted as a legitimate religion in Australia as 10.000 people claimed to be Jedi in their census. In Britain the census claims that there are more Jedi than Buddhists.

According to various Jedi websites "Religions base their faith on holy texts such as the bible and the Koran to name only two but we base our faith on the highly accessible stories George Lucas has brought to us in both film and book. We obtain this information and rather than creating strict rules to live by we take it as a guide to living a better and more worthwhile life."

They also claim that "All living creatures share a connection through energy, the universal power which radiates through us all. This phenomenon has always existed, but it was in 1977 after the release of the film "Star Wars" that it was given a name, the force." basically meaning, that they only nicked the names and the imagery.

To me it looks like they don't actually believe the movie to be real. But that they believe the philosophy portrayed in "the force" to be real. So, in effect they're not pointing to a movie and claiming their beliefs would work in the real world. They're pointing to a philosophy portrayed in a movie and believing it will work in the real world.

Also, you brought up the point of them not having a "code of conduct" or other manifestos and such. I found that they have a "book of Jediism". Which can be found here

My overall take on the religion of the Jedi is that I'm going to take it just as seriously as any other religion. Because if Scientology can be accepted as legitimate religion, I believe that this should be too.

For more info:
Jedi Church U.K.
Jedi Church org
BBC article

[Alarica]

So when does someone say enough is enough? Pretty soon there will be more 'religions' than people know what to do with, and ultimately more wars break out over beliefs. This goes on and there'll be a Playboy religion (please dont depress me and say there is), and followers across the globe will be prancing about in leotards, bunny ears and getting their tits out.

I dont have a problem with religion, each to his own and all that, I think it's getting beyond a joke when there are things like the jedi church, based on fiction. They do know it was fiction dont they?

[Man In Room 5]

Originally Posted by jack_the_knife

So, in effect they're not pointing to a movie and claiming their beliefs would work in the real world. They're pointing to a philosophy portrayed in a movie and believing it will work in the real world.

That's a pretty fine distinction and I'm betting it will be lost on many people. I think what will happen will be identical to every other religion. There will be fundamentalists who take it too literally and make the rest of them look stupid and there will be the more intelligent members who interpret it on a more philosophical/spiritual level who will constantly have to apologize for the antics of the 1st group.

In Christianity we have the fundamentalists who interpret every passage of the Bible literally and say the earth is only 6000 years old and we have the more spiritual Christians who interpret many Biblical passages as allegory or metaphor. In Wicca we have the fluff bunnies who believe Murray & Gardner's historical claims about a secret witch cult and we have the more enlightened Wiccans who see beyond that. Now we will also have Jedis who try to use the Jedi mind trick on their boss and the more intelligent Jedi who will shake their head and say, "Padawan Bob just doesn't seem to grasp the metaphorical side of this movement."

[JCC]

Ms.Crowbar, what are these "dieties" you speak of?

[Ms.Crowbar]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Ok, after that last rant, I've calmed down a bit.



First of all...how do you know this unless you try explaining it?

Second of all...I've always been curious to know exactly how witchcraft is supposed to help you out in daily life. Part of the reason I like Christianity is because of its practical applications: Don't steal, don't murder, love others, etc. and so on. Even Buddhism has some practical application where meditation and such are concerned...but I've never understood how witchcraft could help me in any practical way.* Could you clarify this for me?

[*It should be noted that I am not talking about Herbology or homeopathic medicine; I do not consider that part of witchcraft, since one does not have to be initiated into anything in order to use such medicinal aids.*]



I would disagree with you on this, since the term 'Angel' is largely associated with the Christian concept; rather, it seems that you are referring to the idea of spirit guides in general rather than angels in particular. [Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.]

"An' it harm none, do what ye will". Basically, it means do whatever the Hell you want, just don't hurt anyone while you're doing it. You hurt people by lying, stealing and killing. Our Rede tells us not to do that, just like the Bible tells you not to do it.
Witchcraft involves a lot of meditation, a lot of visualisation.
Let's say that you're about to go on stage to perform infront of hundreds of people. You're really nervous and you really don't want to do it. If you were to take just a couple of minutes visualising yourself onstage doing a great job, if you believe that you'll do a great job, then you will.
There are spells for everything, from love to prosperity to health and protection.
If your friend is ill, you can visualise them getting better. Ofcourse, it's not easy. But more than often it works.

[Alarica]

"And it harm none, so mote it be" - If your casting with good intention it means that your will is that it harms none. Not do whatever the hell you want. Thats entirely the wrong attitude if you are serious about the craft, unless of course you only practice black magic. Then the rules change slightly.

I'm sensing too much watching of the tv show Charmed, in this one.

I'm still finding it hilarious you managed to hide your altar but not a book, or that you even have the opportunity to have your altar set up if your mum is rummaging through your drawers looking for the satanic bible. Yet she doesnt think it 'odd' you have books on witchcraft?

I have books on magic, dream analysis, paganism and one specifically highlighting a whole range of the more widely adopted religions (dont ask me which ones, because I'll happily admit I bought it for my kids. I think religions a load of bollocks but they have to make up their own minds). There is more to it than sheer meditation and visualisation. But its all psychological, and if you actually think casting spells works, you need help. You'll be outright telling us your a witch next

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

"An' it harm none, do what ye will". Basically, it means do whatever the Hell you want, just don't hurt anyone while you're doing it.

First of all, korinna explained exactly what witchcraft specifically is, and according to her it's not a religion or even a philosophy.

What you are describing here is philosophy, which may very well be associated with Wicca rather than witchcraft specifically, since a person doesn't need to be initiated into anything in order to practice witchcraft.

That being said, your philosophy sounds more like LaVeyan atheism than anything else..

You hurt people by lying, stealing and killing. Our Rede tells us not to do that, just like the Bible tells you not to do it.

I can dig it, though I've no idea what a Rede is, and am pretty sure that witchcraft was around before any form of written philosophy.

Witchcraft involves a lot of meditation, a lot of visualisation.
Let's say that you're about to go on stage to perform infront of hundreds of people. You're really nervous and you really don't want to do it. If you were to take just a couple of minutes visualising yourself onstage doing a great job, if you believe that you'll do a great job, then you will.

I hate to break it to you, but that's not a witchcraft-centered mentality; it's simply a psychological mind trick you perform on yourself. My Christian therapist used similar tactics...which she learned in psych classes in university....to help me in therapy.

Be aware that I am not saying such tactics are bad. Rather, I think they're great! But they have nothing to do with witchcraft.

There are spells for everything, from love to prosperity to health and protection.

I'm sure there are, but my question is whether or not these spells actually work, and whether or not they have helped you in your day-to-day life.

For instance, have these spells helped you with your relationship with your parents?

If your friend is ill, you can visualise them getting better. Of course, it's not easy. But more than often it works.

What kind of illness are we speaking of here, though? Are we talking about a case of the sniffles [which is easily taken care of by modern medicine], or are we talking about something more serious? Also, do you have some personal experience you can share where a person was healed through a spell? [I'm not trying to be difficult; I'm honestly curious.]

[korinna5555]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

First of all, korinna explained exactly what witchcraft specifically is, and according to her it's not a religion or even a philosophy.

I don't want to draw the "witch-ier than thou" card, but I was offered a position as high priestess in a legally recognized tradition. I declined because of personal reasons, but for fucks sake.. this chick is clueless.

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

If your friend is ill, you can visualise them getting better.

What the hell? Did you just regurgitate everything that I just said?!





JCC, dieties are the patron goddesses of Eating Disorders

[Alarica]

I have a friend who sounds just like Ms.Crowbar. Her 1st 8 tattoos were all symbols she got from her 'charmed' series dvd cases. She then got 'It is not heresey, I will not recant' tattooed on her arm. Walks round telling everyone she meets that shes a witch. She searches charmed fans web sites for the spells used in the shows and actually thinks they will work. She got pissed at me because I refuse to teach her how to meditate (personally I think its something you cant be taught. You have to find a way that works for you). When she found out I was learning to read tarot cards, she bought a set and a book and thought she could read overnight.

Korinna, I think in this case drawing the 'witch-ier than thou' card would be more than appropriate. She (and many of us) might learn something!

[Ms.Crowbar]

Originally Posted by Alarica

"And it harm none, so mote it be" - If your casting with good intention it means that your will is that it harms none. Not do whatever the hell you want. Thats entirely the wrong attitude if you are serious about the craft, unless of course you only practice black magic. Then the rules change slightly.

I'm sensing too much watching of the tv show Charmed, in this one.

I'm still finding it hilarious you managed to hide your altar but not a book, or that you even have the opportunity to have your altar set up if your mum is rummaging through your drawers looking for the satanic bible. Yet she doesnt think it 'odd' you have books on witchcraft?

I have books on magic, dream analysis, paganism and one specifically highlighting a whole range of the more widely adopted religions (dont ask me which ones, because I'll happily admit I bought it for my kids. I think religions a load of bollocks but they have to make up their own minds). There is more to it than sheer meditation and visualisation. But its all psychological, and if you actually think casting spells works, you need help. You'll be outright telling us your a witch next

Are You kidding?
I hate Charmed. It's so- innacurate.
I havn't been a Witch for that long (No thanks to my parents). 3 years is how long I've been looking at it. I havn't been able to do that many rituals. That's why I need to join a Coven. I need to be around other people who know more about it than I do. I need to be trained. I need to be initiated, God dammit.
I'm starting to think that I've maybe been reading the wrong books.....
Oh, and you'll probably be pleased to know that I threw the book out.
And just a word, in LaVeyan Satanism, they don't believe in not hurting people. You can't care about someone if you cast a Destruction spell. You can't care if they get hurt or die. So, in a sense, you have to really, really hate them. At least, that's what I read anyway.
I'm too nice to be Satanist anyway. I believe in Karma too much.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

Are You kidding?
I hate Charmed. It's so- innacurate.

Bahahaha. My first laugh of many.

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

I havn't been a Witch for that long (No thanks to my parents). 3 years is how long I've been looking at it.

You wasted three years.

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

I havn't been able to do that many rituals.

Bahahaha.

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

That's why I need to join a Coven.

Hahaha! Best one yet!

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

I need to be around other people who know more about it than I do. I need to be trained. I need to be initiated, God dammit.

SHE NEEDS TO BE TRAINED! SHE NEEDS TO BE INITIATED, GOD DAMMIT!

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

And just a word, in LaVeyan Satanism, they don't believe in not hurting people.

Yes, they do.

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

You can't care about someone if you cast a Destruction spell. You can't care if they get hurt or die.

LaVeyan Satanism's violence is only ever counter-action.

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

So, in a sense, you have to really, really hate them. At least, that's what I read anyway.

Whatever you read was wrong. Nice going.

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

I'm too nice to be Satanist anyway. I believe in Karma too much.

No, you don't, you believe in the ridiculous privileged-person Western Karma of "What goes around comes around, bucko!"

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by JCC

No, you don't, you believe in the ridiculous privileged-person Western Karma of "What goes around comes around, bucko!"

Be nice, JCC. Her nagging sensation that there's something to this whole Karma idea is the Wheel of Things prodding her to mind herself so that she doesn't end up reincarnated as an illiterate, vapid, probably obese teenage 'witch' again.

[JCC]

It is obvious that to avoid the horror of such an eventuality she will have to be formally educated, a situation of such gravity is far too sensitive to be left to chance. She needs to be trained! SHE NEEDS TO BE INITIATED, GOD DAMMIT!

[JCC]

Man, my aim for this week is to turn that into an internet meme.

[Beneath the Shadows]

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

Are You kidding?
I hate Charmed. It's so- innacurate.

A fictional television show... inaccurate? Get the fuck out!

I havn't been a Witch for that long (No thanks to my parents). 3 years is how long I've been looking at it. I havn't been able to do that many rituals.

At this point, you shouldn't even call yourself a witch. Witch-in-training, or witch-oriented, perhaps, but not "witch."

That's why I need to join a Coven. I need to be around other people who know more about it than I do. I need to be trained. I need to be initiated, God dammit.

Wrong. You don't need any of those things. They can help you along your path, but they can also push you down a path other than the one you chose.

I'm starting to think that I've maybe been reading the wrong books.....

There are no "wrong" books. Not all books agree, but that doesn't make them wrong.

Oh, and you'll probably be pleased to know that I threw the book out.

Bad choice. Even the worst of books has something good. "Twilight," for example, can keep you warm if you burn it.

And just a word, in LaVeyan Satanism, they don't believe in not hurting people.

Since when?

You can't care about someone if you cast a Destruction spell.

"Destruction spell?" Never mind... In any case, a "destruction spell" can serve a beneficial purpose for someone you care about. For example, a Laveyan will see nothing wrong with bringing injury to another if it protects someone they care about, because doing so will prevent harm coming to the person they care about.

You can't care if they get hurt or die. So, in a sense, you have to really, really hate them.

There is someone I wouldn't mind seeing dead. But I don't hate him. I'd be happy to see him dead not because he'd be dead, but because his death eliminates him as a threat to someone I love.

At least, that's what I read anyway.

Try again.

I'm too nice to be Satanist anyway.

There is a such thing as a nice Satanist.

I believe in Karma too much.

Define "karma."

[Alarica]

Originally Posted by Ms.Crowbar

Are You kidding?
I hate Charmed. It's so- innacurate.
I havn't been a Witch for that long (No thanks to my parents). 3 years is how long I've been looking at it. I havn't been able to do that many rituals. That's why I need to join a Coven. I need to be around other people who know more about it than I do. I need to be trained. I need to be initiated, God dammit.
I'm starting to think that I've maybe been reading the wrong books.....
Oh, and you'll probably be pleased to know that I threw the book out.
And just a word, in LaVeyan Satanism, they don't believe in not hurting people. You can't care about someone if you cast a Destruction spell. You can't care if they get hurt or die. So, in a sense, you have to really, really hate them. At least, that's what I read anyway.
I'm too nice to be Satanist anyway. I believe in Karma too much.

You were right to throw the book out. You clearly didnt read it or understand any of it. Satanists believe you shouldnt hurt another human being unless they hurt you, because retaliation is justified. eye for an eye. I havent read much on it, so I am in no position to talk about it.

Destruction spell? What books on witchcraft HAVE you been reading? That is what some would class as black magic/voodoo, and would be a curse, not a spell.

You do not need to join a coven or be initiated. It's not a cool gang you know. Stop trying to be a witch and get a job so you can stop living off your parents and bitching about them.

[Tam Li Hua]

Ms.Crowbar: First off, I had a few weird visualizations of your name as a cartoon crowbar with a witch hat on it just before I woke up this morning. Then I considered a crow next to the crowbar with a witch hat on. XD Too bad I stopped drawing; it would be an amusing image.

Anyways...I -really- think you need to stop blaming your parents for "holding you back" when you are perfectly capable of living life on your own...but simply aren't willing to put forth the effort.

As for everything else, everyone else has already said what I was thinking, so no need to reiterate. [I was also confused about the idea of a LaVeyan Satanist casting a spell, since they are labeled as atheists, and I would find it highly unusual for someone who doesn't believe in anything spiritual to try and cast a spell. O__o;;]

Like I said, I want some personal stories from you about how witchcraft and your beliefs have helped you in your every day life. I'm -really- curious about this. [Actually, this is a question for anyone here who has practiced witchcraft. ]

[Saya]

Tam, if you ever have the chance read The Elemental Encyclopedia Of 5000 Spells by Judika Illes. Illes writes a lot of books about witchcraft and I never read any of them besides this one, because I was really impressed with it and I had a feeling I wouldn't be impressed with her other works ^_^ Basically its all about witchcraft throughout the ages in different cultures and religions, I'm sure lots of people do use the book as an actual spellbook but its really good as a folklore study. She even included dangerous and gross spells that people used to do, very interesting.