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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 01-07-2011, 05:13 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Corpsey View Post
Nuclear fuel for the reactors is also incredibly limited, to top off on the waste. Last time I checked there is only enough left so that if the entire world switched to Nuclear power, within 50 years we would have run out and we will have a great big pile of waste that lasts for centuries. Fun fun all around.
That doesn't sound right at all. Where are you getting that figure?
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Old 01-07-2011, 06:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Despanan View Post
That doesn't sound right at all. Where are you getting that figure?
I'm currently trying to track it down but unsuccessfully. I'm pretty sure my Father put me on to it so I'll grab his sources off him when I see him.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:51 AM   #28
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It isn't right. That 50 year figure comes up somewhere like the time that uranium left in current mines will last for if used for 100% of the current world power supply without reprocessing. It's wrong to use it for several reasons:

1) Reprocessing technologies to increase the efficiency of uranium exist. Although I believe currently the only facilities are in Europe and possibly Japan. The US thought they posed a proliferation risk.

2) Fuel can and is harvested from nuclear weapons which are no longer in use, and this isn't included in that 50 years.

3) Nuclear (fission) power does not necessarily equal uranium. Using other elements could take more research but it's definitely possible.

4) There are sources of uranium outside current mines. Nobody knows how much because nobody has really looked. It hasn't been worth looking because the market isn't big enough. This is partly due to the scale of nuclear power, and partly because mining is competing with gathering fuel from weapons. It is, however, pretty safe to say that there very significant reserves of uranium left untapped and if there is renewed interest in nuclear power someone will start mining. The real question is how much uranium is left in economically accessible areas, which is again unanswered but fuel costs are such a small part of the operating cost of a nuclear power station that they can easily absorb some fuel price increase.


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Nuclear fusion really is the only way to support, as well as allow for growth, our society enough to use depleting fossil fuels into the future. But like I said, that's only half the problem.
It isn't ready. The European tokamak in the UK, JET, isn't breaking even. It's at about 70% of power out over power in and I believe that's the current world record. Even that looks better than it is because the input power is only the heating, they haven't included the power needed to sustain the confinement fields. The US are researching a different fusion method but it hasn't really gone anywhere. There's an international tokamak being constructed in France as well as some other facilities elsewhere but it will be at least 20 or 30 years before it's finished and completed a significant amount of research. After that the idea is that it will be possible to create a demonstration fusion power station and it will be even longer before other stations are built. Even the most optimistic predictions I've seen have said 30 years from now (by doing things in parallel) and I wouldn't be surprised if the reality is 50+ years. So while fusion is worth supporting, there does need to be an interim solution.

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Even so, each year, each reactor generates 25 tons of spent nuclear fuel that takes hundreds of years to become safe again.
Not to diminish the dangers of nuclear waste, but 25 tons is probably a smaller number than you might imagine. 25 tons of uranium is only about a cubic metre or two, or 20 cubic metres according to Wiki so it probably has other things in it. I'm sure industry in general produces far more extremely dangerous non-radioactive waste than that, even if it isn't as dangerous or long lived. Nuclear waste is a huge problem but pointing out the negatives isn't enough to discount an energy source when none of the options are perfect. Without fusion or fossil fuels I can't really see what options some places would have for their baseload energy besides fission.


And while the decline of petroleum is going to be a huge problem and it would be best to start doing something about it, I don't think anyone is predicting end times yet. So it seems silly to talk about how this is going to cause world food shortages and a revolution.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:19 AM   #29
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The answer is simple: Conserve energy instead of consume it - in every aspect of your life. Reduce your footprint on the Earth.

Corpsey - I heard the same figures being batted around by the Australian Government or was it the UK government with their Carbon report a few years back (Stern was it?) *shrugs*
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:55 AM   #30
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The answer is simple: Conserve energy instead of consume it - in every aspect of your life. Reduce your footprint on the Earth.
This won't be sufficient, especially given the development of countries which have previously had relatively low energy usage. Increasing worldwide power production by some means is the only real solution.

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Corpsey - I heard the same figures being batted around by the Australian Government or was it the UK government with their Carbon report a few years back (Stern was it?) *shrugs*
It isn't true regardless of where you heard it.

Try this, it does a much better job of explaining what I was trying to say in the fourth point of my last post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supply of Uranium
From time to time concerns are raised that the known resources might be insufficient when judged as a multiple of present rate of use. But this is the Limits to Growth fallacy, a major intellectual blunder recycled from the 1970s, which takes no account of the very limited nature of the knowledge we have at any time of what is actually in the Earth's crust. Our knowledge of geology is such that we can be confident that identified resources of metal minerals are a small fraction of what is there.

...

Current usage is about 68,000 tU/yr. Thus the world's present measured resources of uranium (5.4 Mt) in the cost category slightly above present spot prices and used only in conventional reactors, are enough to last for about 80 years. This represents a higher level of assured resources than is normal for most minerals. Further exploration and higher prices will certainly, on the basis of present geological knowledge, yield further resources as present ones are used up.
Source.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:44 AM   #31
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You know, it would be insanely great if we polluted all of the lands of this planet. That way there would be nothing left to fight over...
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:08 PM   #32
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Raptor - This is one of the Govt's guides, coming after the UK Stern report http://www.garnautreview.org.au/chp3.htm

Uranium should stay in the ground, because no one wants a reactor in their back yard, and no one wants the waste products in their back yard either.

Anyone who things nuclear power is a safe option really ought to go and live next door to a nuclear power plant and raise their family there.

Design the buildings right in the first place, and you don't need so much energy to run them. The emerging countries have such a great opportunity to leapfrog the mistakes of the developed nations and get ahead of the game.
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:39 AM   #33
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Raptor - This is one of the Govt's guides, coming after the UK Stern report http://www.garnautreview.org.au/chp3.htm
It doesn't mention how long uranium will last for so I don't know why that's relevant to what Corpsey said. The chapter you linked to there doesn't actually mention the word "uranium" at all. Where it is mentioned in other chapters, it says that Australia has little technical knowledge of nuclear power but large uranium deposits and therefore uranium export should be a good source of income.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fruitbat View Post
Uranium should stay in the ground, because no one wants a reactor in their back yard, and no one wants the waste products in their back yard either.
Anyone who things nuclear power is a safe option really ought to go and live next door to a nuclear power plant and raise their family there.
That isn't a nuclear specific problem, people generally don't like to live next to any big industrial site.


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Design the buildings right in the first place, and you don't need so much energy to run them. The emerging countries have such a great opportunity to leapfrog the mistakes of the developed nations and get ahead of the game.
Where they have the money and technology to do so, yes. Energy consumption predictions still say there will be an increase, something like a doubling by 2050 I think.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:50 AM   #34
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There was a documentary about this very topic called 'The Eleventh Hour'. It was actually pretty good.
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