Taste? - Page 2

Godslayer Jillian · 09-25-2007, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

So, if a person with a Ph.D. in Engineering truly related to the 'music' of Paris Hilton, that would define them more than their intellect?

Ha it ever happened? Just asking.

As for 'not being able to define high taste',that's just a post-modernist manner of thinking that has no more rights of authority than the rest of the ideas it decries. It is simply not logical that something that negates truths is true. And it is a nightmare to believe that popular consensus makes something true. How would the Civil Rights movement have gone with that ideology?

Cicero · 09-25-2007, 06:40 PM

People are reading too deeply into this, and taking offense in a way that really isn't necessary.

Of course it's all subjective! If we got all antsy over anything based only on opinion the music forum would be a constant war zone.

The way I see it the 'levels' of taste in most art forms are usually based on the skills required to create it.

Example: A pop singer who lip syncs to simplistic lyrics and has never written a song in his/her life, vs. an accomplished musician who both plays and composes beautiful melodies with highly sophisticated lyrics. One is obviously more skilled at the art than the other, and therefore could be considered of 'higher' taste.

The same can be said for factory-made Target attire vs. a couture gown, simple cartoons vs. the Sistine Chapel, or a McDonald's ice cream vs. creme brulee. Certain things require higher amounts of skill to create than others, and so they 'deserve' higher respect.

There are exceptions of course, but it's just a general observation. It is also nothing to do with what's inferorior or superior. There's nothing WRONG with the 'low' levels of taste, only that they aren't exactly masterpieces of brilliance.

And Jillian - I happen to have been spawned by a multimillionaire mining engineer who truly relates to the music of 98 Degrees and the Backstreet Boys. So I suppose you could say yes, to a certain degree it has happened.

Graveyard.Crow · 09-25-2007, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

Seriously, though - what I just posted is the opposite of what you seem to have been saying lately, and I'm genuinely confused about whether I've just been misinterpreting you or if you've reversed positions or what.

I'm pretty sure you misunderstood. This has been my position.
Or maybe I misunderstood you.

Godslayer Jillian · 09-25-2007, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cicero

And Jillian - I happen to have been spawned by a multimillionaire mining engineer who truly relates to the music of 98 Degrees and the Backstreet Boys. So I suppose you could say yes, to a certain degree it has happened.

Haha, that's why I said 'just asking'. I wasn't going to write it, but I said 'nah, they'll find someone'

TopHaggardDoll · 09-26-2007, 05:32 AM

I'm not sure if you can apply taste to music and art. It's expression.
Beauty is what beauty is, it can't be defined by levels of taste.

I can't see why anyone could find beauty and depth in a rap song, but my brother listens to it all the time and finds depth in it. Same as he can't understand why I find beauty in Sisters of Mercy.

I'm a firm believer in ideas before ability. Yeah, it may take more skill to create one...but is the idea for the other better in your eyes? It's still all down to opinion as is everything in life.

delicti · 09-26-2007, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cicero

I happen to have been spawned by a multimillionaire mining engineer ....

Hey, I'm not that attached to my parents - adopt me! I've already got my first Christmas list drawn up.... :-p

----------------

Seriously though, in regards to taste, I think we need to make the distinction between music that is good and music that we like.

The two factors that really obfuscate this is pop and soul. By that I mean, does it make us just want to have fun, or does it make us feel? While good music can be beautifully composed and masterfully executed, it can also be too heady or unconvincing for us to enjoy it. A soulful vocalist or instrumentalist can save an otherwise bad song. Look at Joy Division - musically, it's not all that to write about; but lyrically and soulfully it's stunning.

I think if people we just more honest with themselves about the quality of what they like, we wouldn't see people getting so offended when their taste in music is criticized. Of course, that's going to happen right after peace on earth and the end of starvation as we know it, so don't hold your breath.

I should add that that's just my personal criteria, so feel free to make your own and berate me about it. :-D

LadyLucretia · 09-26-2007, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cicero

The way I see it the 'levels' of taste in most art forms are usually based on the skills required to create it.

Example: A pop singer who lip syncs to simplistic lyrics and has never written a song in his/her life, vs. an accomplished musician who both plays and composes beautiful melodies with highly sophisticated lyrics. One is obviously more skilled at the art than the other, and therefore could be considered of 'higher' taste.

But the problem with that is that while we *should* be able to objectively evaluate skill, people will still argue about it. A band's lyrics could just be one cliche after another, but someone who doesn't know enough about literature/poetry to judge what is and isn't cliche might think it was brilliant and original. Or, a singers voice could be the product of production and technology rather than talent, but someone who can't tell the different between the two might argue that they are an excellent singer. What it comes down to is knowledge and exposure, which usually help people develop the skills discern these sorts of differences. But those with less knowledge and exposure never like being told so, even if it's the truth and not meant as an insult but rather as an observation. "Wisest is he who admits he does not know."

Rae Ven Rae · 09-26-2007, 10:49 AM

gimme that keyboard!

*Cracks knuckles in preparation*

Since this is an OBVIOUSLY directed thread--allow me to retort...

There is a REAL difference between, lets say Paris Hilton Britney Spears and a band like, oh I dunno HIM--whereas anyone with a brain could say that Pop lyrics like "Baby hit me one more time" are banal and uninspired, one may legitimately differ over lyrics like "Heaven ablaze in our eyes, we're standing still in time, the blood on hands is the whine, we offer as sacrifiice..."

People like Poe and even Emily Dicenkson, hell Beethoven, were once considered hacks in their day...probably by educated and qualified connisuers such as yourself...

To you it may be cartoonish, but your PERCEPTION of dramatic lyrics do not alter their meaning from the artist to a listener, who both understand the point of view of said lyrics, and doesn't make them the equivalent of a BRITNEY SPEARS lover or MCDonald's eater either...

You speak of Skill--I have been in numerous bands and had almost every guitarist struggle with playing the lead guitar parts played by LYNDE of him in WINGS OF THE BUTTERFLY--THAT'S SKILL. Just because a pop arrangement is 4/4 standard doesn't mean that it requires no skill to produce it. I ran across mediocre players and damn amazing ones--damn amazing ones pick up a guitar and can play the damn thing like it is second nature

Producing things that appeal to the masses is a skill in of of itself that one cannot take lightly.

There is something to be said for the beauty of simplicity--does everything have to be fucking Hawthorn or a 16 bar symphonic ode to mean something or be considered art?

Equating a band like HIM to McDonald's or Paris Hilton, for example, is a spit in the face to people who HATE Paris Hilton and Love HIM...

get it...

That to me it is like someone tearing apart the Three Tenors saying that because they Like Placido that Pavoratti sucks ass.

"Pavoratti is the bargain basement example of operatic imposter, and anyone who doesn't think otherwise has no taste in Opera, as his flaws are obvious. Anyone who knows real music and has good taste would pick Placido any time of the day and I know because I am a composer!"

WTF...

Having classical music training doesn't mean you have a superior ability to know what is good and bad--you have technical knowledge, but technical music often time doesn't speak to the soul...to me good music does this--even if it is technically flawed and if that means I have no taste in GOOD music in your opinion then fine... Some of the biggest greats in music were not technically proficient -- some of the most heralded singers hit sharps and flats all over the palce--but what made them great was heart--THEY FELT what they were saying which will beat out a Mariah Carey virtuoso any day fo the week even if the flaws mean it isn't "real music" to you...

Training means nothing--I have that too--took music theory can write charts, play a little piano (I write my own songs) even have a recording suite in my home to create pre production mixes to take to the bigger studio--so are we in a credentials war because you equate a band like HIM lets say to Britney Spears or McDonalds when I don't classifiy ot that way?

I have an appreciaetoion for music on a deeper level too -- I enjoy Celtic and Indian inspired tunes, Asian... Loreena McKennit and Enya are two of my fave artists.

Don't man I can't think HIM is a great band...

You MADE THE ASSUMPTION that I can't POSSIBLY know A THING about music because, otherwise I wouldn't like a band like HIM, as a person with an educated ear wouldn't like such a talentless band, right?

Guess what I HAVE an educated ear and I STILL Like HIM...how about them apples???

Fifteen years in the business baby -- how about you?

You genuinely think that becasue you say "Oh how cute, that roach on the floor thinks a cheetos is filet mignon and thats' okay" that it doesn't come off as condescending?

Saying you give people the right to have bad taste is just as insulting as simply stating you think they lack the grand education you do to know good from bad.

That is what comes off as patronizing arrogant and -condescending.

You didn't start this thread to understand the point of view of people you are inclined to disagree with, you started it to prove you are right. Tell me, if you are sooo right--why do peopel get mad at you when you do such elitiist things?

Maybe it isn't the world at large that is wrong hun, ever consider that?...

what am I thinking. You don't cause you are right and I am wrong cause I am uneducated and don't have the wisdom to admit I don't know music even tough I have been in the industry for about as long as you have been alive.

Sorry--my bad...

Example, you started this thread to confirm your entire rightness on the subject when it should have been squashed...

So I don't expect you to even consider my argument at all since it doesn't matter to someone like you--all you will do is see I don't agree and try to prove why I am wrong--which is again--why people don't like that shit...

Stop trying to be right--move on...

Rae Ven Rae · 09-26-2007, 10:56 AM

edited...gimme that keyboard!

*Cracks knuckles in preparation*

Since this is an OBVIOUSLY directed thread--allow me to retort...

There is a REAL difference between, lets say Paris Hilton Britney Spears and a band like, oh I dunno HIM--whereas anyone with a brain could say that Pop lyrics like "Baby hit me one more time" are banal and uninspired, one may legitimately differ over lyrics like "Heaven ablaze in our eyes, we're standing still in time, the blood on hands is the whine, we offer as sacrifice..."

People like Poe and even Emily Dicenkson, hell Beethoven, were once considered hacks in their day...probably by educated and qualified connisuers such as yourself...

To you it may be cartoonish, but your PERCEPTION of dramatic lyrics do not alter their meaning from the artist to a listener, who both understand the point of view of said lyrics, and doesn't make them the equivalent of a BRITNEY SPEARS lover or McDonald's eater either...

You speak of Skill--I have been in numerous bands and had almost every guitarist struggle with playing the lead guitar parts played by LYNDE of him in WINGS OF THE BUTTERFLY--THAT'S SKILL. Just because a pop arrangement is 4/4 standard doesn't mean that it requires no skill to produce it. I ran across mediocre players and damn amazing ones--damn amazing ones pick up a guitar and can play the damn thing like it is second nature

Producing things that appeal to the masses is a skill in of itself that one cannot take lightly.

There is something to be said for the beauty of simplicity--does everything have to be fucking Hawthorn or a 16 bar symphonic ode to mean something or be considered art?

Equating a band like HIM to McDonald's or Paris Hilton, for example, is a spit in the face to people who HATE Paris Hilton and Love HIM...

get it...

That to me it is like someone tearing apart the Three Tenors saying that because they Like Placido that Pavoratti sucks ass.

"Pavoratti is the bargain basement example of operatic imposter, and anyone who doesn't think otherwise has no taste in Opera, as his flaws are obvious. Anyone who knows real music and has good taste would pick Placido any time of the day and I know because I am a composer!"

WTF...

Having classical music training doesn't mean you have a superior ability to know what is good and bad--you have technical knowledge, but technical music often time doesn't speak to the soul...to me good music does this--even if it is technically flawed and if that means I have no taste in GOOD music in your opinion, then fine... Some of the biggest greats in music were not technically proficient -- some of the most heralded singers hit sharps and flats all over the place--but what made them great was heart--THEY FELT what they were saying which will beat out a Mariah Carey virtuoso any day of the week even if the flaws mean it isn't "real music" to you...

Training means nothing--I have that too--took music theory can write charts, play a little piano (I write my own songs) even have a recording suite in my home to create pre production mixes to take to the bigger studio so no one can claim they wrote my shit--so are we in a credentials war because you equate a band like HIM lets say to Britney Spears or McDonalds when I don't classify it that way?

Oh wait--you are ajusts ayig I don't KNOW any better because I am un-edumicated...

I have an appreciation for music on a deeper level too -- I enjoy Celtic and Indian inspired tunes, Asian... Loreena McKennit and Enya are two of my fave artists.

Don't mean I can't think HIM is a great band, or does this make me lose credibility as a student of the arts in your eyes...

You MADE THE ASSUMPTION that I can't POSSIBLY know A THING about music because, otherwise I wouldn't like a band like HIM, as a person with an educated ear wouldn't like such a talentless band, right, especially if someone of your educated ear pointed it out?

Guess what I HAVE an educated ear and I STILL Like HIM...how about them apples???

Fifteen years in the business baby -- how about you?

You genuinely think that because you say "Oh how cute, that roach on the floor thinks a cheetos is filet mignon and thats' "okay" that it doesn't come off as condescending?

Saying you give people the right to have bad taste is just as insulting as simply stating you think they lack the grand education you do to know good from bad.

That is what comes off as patronizing arrogant and -condescending.

You didn't start this thread to understand the point of view of people you are inclined to disagree with, you started it to prove you are right. Tell me, if you are sooo right--why do people get mad at you when you do such elitiist things?

Maybe it isn't the world at large that is wrong hun, ever consider that?...

what am I thinking. You don't cause you are right and I am wrong -- I am uneducated idiot who just doesn't know good from bad, and don't have the wisdom to admit I don't know music even tough I have been in the industry for about as long as you have been alive.

Sorry--my bad...

Example, you started this thread to confirm your entire rightness on the subject when it should have been squashed...

So I don't expect you to even consider my argument at all since it doesn't matter to someone like you--all you will do is see I don't agree and try to prove why I am wrong--which is again--why people don't like that shit...

Stop trying to be right--move on...

Rae Ven Rae · 09-26-2007, 11:22 AM

In other words, I never said that HIM was Classical music, only that it wasn't BRITNEY SPEARS quality--to say that I think it is gradient above pop swill thereby I am uneducated in music and have no true tastes is insulting ESPECIALLY since I am a studied musician and I DO have the right to make the distinctions, like a fine CHEF or NUTRITIONIST to McDonald's quality to say what I believe is GOOD or BAD in music...

and yes little girl, we are all defined by something, I am a mother a wife and musician you strike me in my heart that way and I will come out guns blazing--I don't care what anyone in here says!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

delicti · 09-26-2007, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

edited...gimme that keyboard!

*Cracks knuckles in preparation*

Since this is an OBVIOUSLY directed thread--allow me to retort...

Whoa, you're taking this way too personally. I didn't get the impression that this thread was directed at you at all; I thought you two had settled your argument?

Rae Ven Rae · 09-26-2007, 11:31 AM

I had thought so too--but I find it interesting that alot of the same arguments she was using in the HIM thread she is using here as well...and to me...I still find it insulting, directed or no, that someone feels because they have more education than someone else that they can define what is good or bad or tell someone else that they lack taste--

many so called educated types shunned some of the best art literature and music known to man--it means very little in my opinion--I just feels directed...

LadyLucretia · 09-26-2007, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

Since this is an OBVIOUSLY directed thread--allow me to retort...

Equating a band like HIM to McDonald's or Paris Hilton, for example, is a spit in the face to people who HATE Paris Hilton and Love HIM...

Oh wait--you are ajusts ayig I don't KNOW any better because I am un-edumicated...

You MADE THE ASSUMPTION that I can't POSSIBLY know A THING about music because, otherwise I wouldn't like a band like HIM, as a person with an educated ear wouldn't like such a talentless band, right, especially if someone of your educated ear pointed it out?

That is what comes off as patronizing arrogant and -condescending.

So I don't expect you to even consider my argument at all since it doesn't matter to someone like you--all you will do is see I don't agree and try to prove why I am wrong--which is again--why people don't like that shit...

Stop trying to be right--move on...

Believe it or not, the thread was not directed at you. It was inspired by the slew of recent new posters who kept talking out of their asses about music. It has nothing to do with my opinion of HIM, my opinion of you, or a desire to prove I'm right - thought I did have a point to make that I hoped people would see. I was hoping to just give people something to think about in terms of why people get so defensive over music taste in general, and if you feel that applies to you, then that's *your* opinion of yourself making you think that.

I'm sorry if somehow you felt personally insulted by something I said, despite the fact that none of it was aimed at you, but please let's not create conflict where there is none.

TopHaggardDoll · 09-26-2007, 11:52 AM

EEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

Yeah, I think everything has been misunderstood and we should all just calm down.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-26-2007, 11:53 AM

I can accept that--just keep in mind that you shouldn't assume that if someone likes something that you feel is base, that means they have no credentials in it, I mean, Gene Simmons likes Abba and Donna Summer --ALOT-- and i am sure a chef or two eats a hamburger every once in a while...some people like the oddest things, but I think music and the arts is where taste is the most subjective...

And I think Movies is another sensitive area as well--I like some art house movies and because I write I do tend to get a tad bit on a high horse about stupid movies, although I do enjoy an occasional popcorn movie, and people get defensive when I say anything too, so I just give them the room to enjoy what they like and keep my artsy fartsy opinions to my lonesome.

I think when it comes to tastes outside the realm of the tangible, ie tastes that reflect who we are as people, then people get a little more sensitive, which is understandable...our choices do show who we are what we are int...

Example--girls who like Britney tend to be blonde Barbie types, whereas you don't see them hanging around a CruxShadow concert...

Our artistic choices Are us in a way -- so it is like an insult to sensitive types like myself I suppose...I hope that makes the response a bit clearer...if you would argue the point, do it in a way where a person won't get defensive--

Pointing out flaws in taste as it were, can come across as arrogant, as I do when I talk about writing, I have been called that too...:-)

LadyLucretia · 09-26-2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rae Ven Rae

I can accept that--just keep in mind that you shouldn't assume that if someone likes something that you feel is base, that means they have no credentials in it, I mean, Gene Simmons likes Abba and Donna Summer --ALOT--

Yeah, but that led to KISS releasing that awful disco album! Sorry, I had to point that out :P.

Quote:

Our artistic choices Are us in a way -- so it is like an insult to sensitive types like myself I suppose...I hope that makes the response a bit clearer...if you would argue the point, do it in a way where a person won't get defensive--

Pointing out flaws in taste as it were, can come across as arrogant, as I do when I talk about writing, I have been called that too...:-)

I did not name any names or give any examples based off of people, so I'm not sure what else I could have done to avoid making people feel defensive.

Also, if you think that people shouldn't post threads that might be perceived as aggressive, why did you just quote me in the title of a thread complaining about "pushy, arrogant, and abrasive" people? I think I have far more of a right to get defensive about that then you did about this thread.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-26-2007, 12:21 PM

That was in general--not directed ;-)

Rae Ven Rae · 09-26-2007, 12:23 PM

Music and art are like politics and religion--in good company, don't debate it--simply talk about it...unless you know them like that and can be all over each other ass and still talk to one another the next day...

delicti · 09-26-2007, 12:34 PM

Anyways... I wouldn't mind your opinion on what I posted earlier on this thread. It's not directed, BTW, just me being objective about the whole thing in general.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-26-2007, 12:40 PM

Okay--hold on...

walks up to front of thread....

Rae Ven Rae · 09-26-2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delicti

Hey, I'm not that attached to my parents - adopt me! I've already got my first Christmas list drawn up.... :-p

----------------

Seriously though, in regards to taste, I think we need to make the distinction between music that is good and music that we like.

The two factors that really obfuscate this is pop and soul. By that I mean, does it make us just want to have fun, or does it make us feel? While good music can be beautifully composed and masterfully executed, it can also be too heady or unconvincing for us to enjoy it. A soulful vocalist or instrumentalist can save an otherwise bad song. Look at Joy Division - musically, it's not all that to write about; but lyrically and soulfully it's stunning.

I think if people we just more honest with themselves about the quality of what they like, we wouldn't see people getting so offended when their taste in music is criticized. Of course, that's going to happen right after peace on earth and the end of starvation as we know it, so don't hold your breath.

I should add that that's just my personal criteria, so feel free to make your own and berate me about it. :-D

I read that earlier and felt that was rather well put and agreed with a lot of it wholeheartedly--but for me, I suppose it is not someone saying they dislike something I like, but them challenging my ability to know good from bad when they say I have no "taste'.

I feel I know when something is cheesy poppy, even if I like it, as I would know the difference between a big mac and a steak, where it all gets tricky is when you like something you CONSIDER to fall into a realm beyond the substandard and someone not only says it is swill., but that you don't have the education to know it is swill. I mean, I have loved Disco tunes, okay--DISCO *hangs head in shame*I would never argue that was good music--but I would argue that HIM is--so if I said I liked disco and someone said MAN THAT SHIT BLOWS, I would be inclined to agree, but if someone said HIM is akin to ABBA and if I don't agree then I must not be educated enough in music to tell the difference in what is good and what is bad--then my friend, we have a problem *just using HIM as an example*

I suppose the point should be to accept that some people won' t agree to see a certain type of artistic item in the same light as you and because I personally believe it is not about good and bad tastes, but is in fact subjective, then whose to say...although from a literary perspective, I kinda understand Lucretia's point...

I also can see why some people thought I was an art snob...lol..

Damn double edge swrods...

MaverickZero · 09-26-2007, 01:16 PM

Usually these people who talk about Gothics and the like having no taste, are the people who go out on bargain days to the dollar store to buy their families crocs for birthday presents.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-26-2007, 01:21 PM

what r crocs again-- r they those plastic shoes?

Underwater Ophelia · 09-26-2007, 04:56 PM

I think a big problem here is that some of you are equating quality with "high taste."

BLEED REBELION!!! · 09-26-2007, 05:44 PM

Most of the comments on this read made me sick....................

I agree with most of what rae said...............

Having "higher" education doesnt make your tastes any better. The education system is the most brain washing idiotic thing ever.....