Jesus is the way

[mrs.wes straker]

Originally Posted by c130

So as long as you accept Jesus, you're saved, even if you go on to commit heinous crimes of aggression, violence or greed? But if you lead a much more virtuous and honest life than a bishop, you'll be damned to Hell just because you saw no reason to do the magic handshake that would get you into the elite afterlife club.

That makes no sense.

c130, I'm sorry that I'm quoting you with this reply. Believe me, this is not directed toward you alone.
You don't make any sense because you're basically just replying with a biased view. I really don't like these threads, and I try to stay off of them, but I will say this: Leave Christians alone. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but have you ever heard of having a debate with diplomacy?
I don't see anyone attacking the Wiccans, I don't see anyone attacking the Atheists, or anyone else for that matter; and the person who started this thread, Orion, or whatever his/her name was is now gone. Furthermore, I have not seen any Christian on this thread being nasty or insolent, which is what you are being. You do not need to be offensive to express your views. In conclusion, you are reading into what Humane posted in the way you want to just so you can manipulate the words to serve your own purposes. There are ignorant Christians out there, yes, but Humane isn't one of them. Your reply was made out of ignorance.

With this, I now leave, because I cannot stand this topic. I find it dull and vain, which reminds me of the people who think they are better than others because of their viewpoints.

[ArtificialOne]

I would have to say xtian bashing is popular. I will not usually fall into this category seeing as I went to catholic school and all.

Alot of people have issues with xtianity, which some might be valid and other are a "bandwagon" cause.

The left in this country and some parts of the world like to see xtians as scapegoats for social and economic problems.

Lets not forget xtianity helped western culture through the middle ages by having a coherent organised culture and writing system.

Nothing is without flaws. But people please, stop jumping on this bandwagon of hating xtianity above all else in life.

People need to look at some of the motives behind this war that some people are waging against certain cultures in the US.

[ArtificialOne]

Oh.. btw... before everyone jumps on my back and tries to take me down...

I may have been raised catholic and such... But I do not practise or believe in the main princibles of xtianity. Such as pergatory, jesus, Baptism and such.

But, I do have a respect for religion, because I believe it's one of the most foremost things that sets Humans away from the rest of the crowd. And to jump on some bandwagon of hate is wrong and ignorant.
Everyone should respect one anothers religion.

[mrs.wes straker]

Thanks AO. Respect is what I'm talking about.

[republigoth]

Familularity breeds contempt.

That's why so many snot-nosed punks hate their parents, their country, the economic system of their country, and the dominate religion of said country.

It has less to do with the flaws of the hated, and more to do with desperatly grasping at sophistication by denouncing anything familiar.

Xtianity might be creepy and hypocritical sometimes, but at least it's not the grab-bag of looniness that is Wicca.

And it leads to pictures I will someday possess of AO in a catholic school boy uniform looking all underage and forbidden. Yum.

(alas, not AO, but the general idea of what's in my head. ~evil smirk~ ) http://www.wrecovery.com/themasculis...iew_02_big.jpg

[raggedyanne]

Okay, that pic is seriously disturbing on SO many levels

[KontanKarite]

There. Someone made fun of Wiccas. Is everyone happy now?

[republigoth]

Hehe. Disturbing is what I do best, raggedyanne.

The challenge would be for someone to defend Wiccans. Damn hippies hiding behind pentagrams.

Although this form of Paganism is one I could definatly martyr myself to:
http://www.bumperart.com/ProductImag...Display-25.gif

[ArtificialOne]

OMG!!! Just OMG!!!!

SHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! RG Just SHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

You are in sooooo much trouble missy!!!!

[HumanePain]

Wow, just now saw c130's post and everything after. Hey, it's cool my gothlings (but thanks for defending), I don't think c130 was being insulting (were you? O_o ) just stating an opinion.

To respond (and I will make this the last, I think everyone tires of the eternal (pun intended) Christianity debate, and I really do not like coming across as proselytizing :

Murderers and heroin addicts and bank robbers and alcoholics are able to transform their lives by the personal epiphany of accepting Jesus, and thus throwing away old behaviors and thoughts, replacing them with the higher standard template of Jesus.

If their past heinous sins can be forgiven, future ones can be too in the same way, the time of acceptance is irrelevant, BUT, the idea is that future sins will be less likely to be serious strays from the template once the saved one is living with the new guide/road map.

Example: I was saved at 16. After that time, I started drinking heavily, about 21, and continued for the next 19 years. I was anything but an ideal Christian, but God's discipline (actually family, friends and the police) inflicted punishment on me when I reached excesses that I was steered back onto the path of non-alcoholic living.

Immediately my life improved and I was rewarded in my career, my relationships and finances. All because of going back to the template/road map.

The whole idea is to believe in the deity of Jesus, so that the whole concept works powerfully in the life of the individual that he could not do himself. Without the belief in a higher power, the individual is left to his own resources.

I consider myself fortunate to be accepted in this community of very intelligent people who can survive and even thrive on their own resources. I cannot, and so my faith works for me.

OK, I'll shutup now. Thanks for listening, and now, a word from our sponsor:

http://a611.ac-images.myspacecdn.com...43ce143dfa.jpg

[republigoth]

You're experiances remind me of my favorite quote by St. Augustine: "Give me chastity and continence, but not yet." Hehe. A saint with a sense of humor. Awesome.

Here's my problem with that reasoning: Things don't exist just because you really want them to exist. It doesn't work with god any more than it works with finding a magical flute that causes my professors to give me straight A's. Your need for a god does not make a god exist.

I understand the whole 'healing power of jesus' thing. And more power to the people in this world that manage to get their life together at all. If some idea of god helps them do that, whatever, the positive effect is the same. Churchs are wonderful social organizations in this country.

That being said, congratulations to the power of man. Even if it is through the third-party illusion of god.
----------------------------
The real reason AO didn't mind going to catholic school:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...iaSaint006.jpg
You're going to learn not to shush me one of these days.

[c130]

Wow, just now saw c130's post and everything after. Hey, it's cool my gothlings (but thanks for defending), I don't think c130 was being insulting (were you? O_o ) just stating an opinion.

The man speaks truth.

c130, I'm sorry that I'm quoting you with this reply. Believe me, this is not directed toward you alone.
You don't make any sense because you're basically just replying with a biased view. I really don't like these threads, and I try to stay off of them, but I will say this: Leave Christians alone. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but have you ever heard of having a debate with diplomacy?
I don't see anyone attacking the Wiccans, I don't see anyone attacking the Atheists, or anyone else for that matter; and the person who started this thread, Orion, or whatever his/her name was is now gone. Furthermore, I have not seen any Christian on this thread being nasty or insolent, which is what you are being. You do not need to be offensive to express your views. In conclusion, you are reading into what Humane posted in the way you want to just so you can manipulate the words to serve your own purposes. There are ignorant Christians out there, yes, but Humane isn't one of them. Your reply was made out of ignorance.

With this, I now leave, because I cannot stand this topic. I find it dull and vain, which reminds me of the people who think they are better than others because of their viewpoints.

Actually I wasn't being insulting. You are. Instead of answering my question, you told me to stop criticising Christianity because apparently I'm only trying to be a troll. Your last sentence is funny, because it looks much more like you are the one who's on a high horse here, telling me I don't know what I'm talking about to avoid discussing it with me, and patronising me (and, I presume, whoever else you say you were directing your post towards) with phrases like "have you ever heard of having a debate with diplomacy?".

Don't tell me to shut up and stop "talking in ignorance" because I'm NOT talking in ignorance. I disagree with many of the claims that the Bible makes, and I disagree with what a lot of Christians think they believe. Most of the followers of organised religion who I've met so far have no foundation for their beliefs other than what was drilled into their brains through their up-bringing. I ask them a question about their beliefs and they ignore it or tell me to go away and stop pestering them. They make no attempt at self-discovery or any kind of spiritual exploration of their own; they just repeat over and over what they were taught in Sunday school (or the Islamic/Hindu/etc equivalent), until their words have no meaning left, and are just a mantra keeping them hypnotised. Any question that can't be answered easily by their holy book, they disregard, avoid, or attempt to debunk. People like HP who realised their faith by themselves are exempt from this generalisation, since they didn't come to believe what they do through brainwashing in childhood.

Furthermore, if you think I'm "ignorant", wouldn't it be more "Christian" to attempt to enlighten me by explaining the flaws in my logic, rather than telling me I'm an idiot with a big mouth and a superiority complex, and stalking away from the conversation?

And y'know why we're not bashing Wiccaism, Islam, Satanism, Buddhism or Scientology in this thread? Because the thread is about CHRISTIANITY. If you want the other religions to get their fair share of criticism, let's start up a new thread.

[c130]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Example: I was saved at 16. After that time, I started drinking heavily, about 21, and continued for the next 19 years. I was anything but an ideal Christian, but God's discipline (actually family, friends and the police) inflicted punishment on me when I reached excesses that I was steered back onto the path of non-alcoholic living.

This makes sense. The only problem is that as you observed, it was your close relations and the civil authorities who brought you back to earth. Without them, faith alone wouldn't have been able to straighten your alcoholism out. Do you feel that you couldn't have done it without both your faith and those around you?

If their past heinous sins can be forgiven, future ones can be too in the same way, the time of acceptance is irrelevant, BUT, the idea is that future sins will be less likely to be serious strays from the template once the saved one is living with the new guide/road map.

But what happens when someone fails to follow that roadmap, even after accepting Jesus as their saviour? What happens if they see this as a safety net that encourages them to lead a bad life? (For example, priests caught molesting choirboys that the tabloid newspapers love to shout about.) They became Christian so they'll be saved when they die, and it's okay if they sin because humans are sinful by nature. So they go out and continue to ra-pe and steal, and go to confession regularly to keep their record clean with the big guy upstairs. Will they still be saved when they die, with preference over atheists who followed their own strict code of conduct and behaved themselves?

[KontanKarite]

Actually...

Be there a god/dess/s or not, Humane attributes his comings of a better life through Jesus. To be the advocate of the devil, I would say that it was the union of family, friends, and authorities that got him through it through the influence of God.

Sometimes, and I hate this, but it seems to be true, God does not have to come down from the sky and literally make himself known. Sometimes all it takes is to put people in certain situations and circumstances. God may not dabble in taking over free will, but it doesn't mean he can't influence it without our knowing.

Here's something to chew on. A kid is having a hard time to stick up for himself. All of a sudden, the least likely person inspires him to be a stronger person and that person was Marilyn Manson. God saw it fit to expose the kid to Manson's "don't take any shit from anyone" attitude.

Anyway... blessed be. Sometimes mom and pop know best.

[Vako]

"God helps those who help themselves"...

[c130]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Here's something to chew on. A kid is having a hard time to stick up for himself. All of a sudden, the least likely person inspires him to be a stronger person and that person was Marilyn Manson. God saw it fit to expose the kid to Manson's "don't take any shit from anyone" attitude.

I thought Christianity was about loving, forgiveness and peace, not beating up your enemies and having a "don't take any shit from anyone" attitude. The most important thing Jesus taught was to treat everyone, even your enemies, with the love and respect you'd like in return. Is Jesus at odds with God then, if God would encourage that kid to go Rambo on people who pick on him?

Regarding inexplicable co-incidences... everything that happens in the world has a logical and tangible cause, even if it's difficult to see or hard to believe. There's no such thing as true randomness, and that's the only thing that God could influence if he didn't want to interfere with our free will. The only way God could have introduced the kid to Manson would be to interfere with the "least likely person's" free will. Any kind of influence no matter how small is enough to invalidate the concept of free will, because if you're getting hints, you're not really thinking for yourself.

Now here's something a bit chewier. If God is willing to step in to help a kid stand up for himself, why doesn't he interfere with murderers and paedophiles to stop them? Does he enjoy watching the violence?

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by c130

I thought Christianity was about loving, forgiveness and peace, not beating up your enemies and having a "don't take any shit from anyone" attitude. The most important thing Jesus taught was to treat everyone, even your enemies, with the love and respect you'd like in return. Is Jesus at odds with God then, if God would encourage that kid to go Rambo on people who pick on him?

Regarding inexplicable co-incidences... everything that happens in the world has a logical and tangible cause, even if it's difficult to see or hard to believe. There's no such thing as true randomness, and that's the only thing that God could influence if he didn't want to interfere with our free will. The only way God could have introduced the kid to Manson would be to interfere with the "least likely person's" free will. Any kind of influence no matter how small is enough to invalidate the concept of free will, because if you're getting hints, you're not really thinking for yourself.

Now here's something a bit chewier. If God is willing to step in to help a kid stand up for himself, why doesn't he interfere with murderers and paedophiles to stop them? Does he enjoy watching the violence?

Mmm... You do have a point. Honestly, this is why I'm essentially on the fence with the nature of God. I was merrily trying to bring up an example

[KontanKarite]

Actually... does the presence of God really mess with free will? I am here talking with you. I am real. But am I messing with your free will? Do I hold control over you because I have compelled you to respond to me?

[c130]

If I were to disregard all that's been said before now and exercise true free will, I'd be screaming about monkeys covered in strawberry jam. :-3

[edit] I can't remember what I was trying to say now. I think it's bedtime.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by c130

If I were to disregard all that's been said before now and exercise true free will, I'd be screaming about monkeys covered in strawberry jam. :-3

That's the other point I was really trying to make. Free will. I don't think many consciously knows how little control they actually have over their will is.

So... What is really stopping you from breaking from this chain of events, C130?

I think you accidentally raised a valid point.

[MollyMac]

causal chains are god.

EDIT:

And THAT was post 666

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by MollyMac

And THAT was post 666

That's is just too funny to be a coincidence Molly, I think God has a sense of humor!

So, to respond to the great "Free Will vs. Divine Pre-ordination" drift: In my humble opinion, the New Testament is a guide to living, and not an explanation on how the universe works, or the roadmap to a pre-ordained future mapped out by God. In other words we live in a universe of free will.

[mrs.wes straker]

Originally Posted by c130

The man speaks truth.



Actually I wasn't being insulting. You are. Instead of answering my question, you told me to stop criticising Christianity because apparently I'm only trying to be a troll. Your last sentence is funny, because it looks much more like you are the one who's on a high horse here, telling me I don't know what I'm talking about to avoid discussing it with me, and patronising me (and, I presume, whoever else you say you were directing your post towards) with phrases like "have you ever heard of having a debate with diplomacy?".

Don't tell me to shut up and stop "talking in ignorance" because I'm NOT talking in ignorance. I disagree with many of the claims that the Bible makes, and I disagree with what a lot of Christians think they believe. Most of the followers of organised religion who I've met so far have no foundation for their beliefs other than what was drilled into their brains through their up-bringing. I ask them a question about their beliefs and they ignore it or tell me to go away and stop pestering them. They make no attempt at self-discovery or any kind of spiritual exploration of their own; they just repeat over and over what they were taught in Sunday school (or the Islamic/Hindu/etc equivalent), until their words have no meaning left, and are just a mantra keeping them hypnotised. Any question that can't be answered easily by their holy book, they disregard, avoid, or attempt to debunk. People like HP who realised their faith by themselves are exempt from this generalisation, since they didn't come to believe what they do through brainwashing in childhood.

Furthermore, if you think I'm "ignorant", wouldn't it be more "Christian" to attempt to enlighten me by explaining the flaws in my logic, rather than telling me I'm an idiot with a big mouth and a superiority complex, and stalking away from the conversation?

And y'know why we're not bashing Wiccaism, Islam, Satanism, Buddhism or Scientology in this thread? Because the thread is about CHRISTIANITY. If you want the other religions to get their fair share of criticism, let's start up a new thread.

I'm sorry that you were insulted by my post, but I am not interested in attemping to enlighten you with my personal views. It's funny how you suggest hypocrisy, but your judgments on Christians in general put you in the same bracket as those hypocrites. I don't have much else to say, but it's simply because I'm not interested in the argument. The theme bores me. My post was about pulling you (people in general) up on sitting around and continually bashing people for their beliefs. I don't have to argue with you. I said what I have to say and that's where I'm leaving it.

[mrs.wes straker]

C130, let me also add this. My posts below do come off as arrogant. The last thing I want to do is come off as arrogant (even though I do tend to be, I'm not going to lie). Anyhow, to continue, the last thing I want to do is annoy or anger you or anyone else. I get annoyed by these threads, and I do try and stay off of them. If you've seen any of my other posts I am continually sighing, 'This subject, again?' But sincerely, it's not right to be rude no matter what the topic is, so please excuse me for offending you.

[ArtificialOne]

I like to anger humans.. they are so fragile and jellylike.. it's fun to watch them squirm.. mwuahahaha...

Got Robot jesus?... need to get that bumber sticker...