Industrial

Draconysius · 05-24-2007, 10:14 AM

Thought I'd revive this long-gone thread in honor of the vast musical genre known as industrial.

First, I would like to discuss whether industrial music has a place in goth culture, alongside gothic rock? These days, it seems to be pretty much dominating the scene and leaving its rock counterpart in the dust. So does it have a place? In my opinion, yes. Back in the forming days of goth, industrial bands like Einsturzende Neubauten, Throbbing Gristle, and even industrial dance like Ministry and Sigue Sigue Sputnik, were playing alongside some of the greatest gothic rock bands. I still have a flier advertising Specimen playing with Throbbing Gristle, at the Batcave. Industrial bands were being referred to as goth, ex-members of gothic rock bands were joining industrial ones, and no one seemed to have a problem with it. That's why I don't see how deathrockers and old-school goths can have so much resentment for industrial music. I can understand the hate for that ebm rave crap, but we seriously need to band together as one if we're going to survive this mainstream invasion. What are your opinions on the matter?

Now, on to favorite bands. Ministry (Every Day is Halloween-era) is my absolute favorite industrial band, though only recently. They mix in a good bit of Gary Numan and NIN with a little Einsturzende, making a truly revolutionary sound. Listen to "Isle of man (version II)" off the album "Twitch" for a perfect example. I also really love Sigue Sigue Sputnik, though they may be considered more of a darkwave band. What are your favorite bands?

Vyvian Blackthorne · 05-24-2007, 04:10 PM

Goth and Industrial are brothers in my opinion. I mean, I like first wave Industrial like Gristle, Neubauten, etc. but the so called 'Industrial Rock' genre is completely out of Industrial's original place in music, but I only say that because it doesn't apply to my tastes (no offense Maggz). Also, another dissapointment about recent Industrial is that it TRIES to be closer to goth with attire, looks, and themes when really old school Industrial was closer to goth...I have no idea now...
Goth Forever

Graveyard.Crow · 05-24-2007, 04:16 PM

I think they have their similarities

Saddiction · 05-24-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

Also, another dissapointment about recent Industrial is that it TRIES to be closer to goth with attire, looks, and themes when really old school Industrial was closer to goth...I have no idea now...

I tend to disagree. How is it that recent industrial TRIES to be closer to goth attire, looks, and themes? What bands do you consider to be recent industrial?

Your statment is confusing. In one breath you state that recent industrial is trying to be like goth, when in another breath you state that old school industrial was more like goth. In theory, if recent bands were built off of the old school bands, how could they be 'trying'?

The aesthetics of industrial are clearly different from that of goth. It is a darker genre of music, like goth, but that doesn't mean its trying to be goth. Believe it or not, goth isn't the only genre with darker undertones.

Vyvian Blackthorne · 05-24-2007, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saddiction

I tend to disagree. How is it that recent industrial TRIES to be closer to goth attire, looks, and themes? What bands do you consider to be recent industrial?

Your statment is confusing. In one breath you state that recent industrial is trying to be like goth, when in another breath you state that old school industrial was more like goth. In theory, if recent bands were built off of the old school bands, how could they be 'trying'?

The aesthetics of industrial are clearly different from that of goth. It is a darker genre of music, like goth, but that doesn't mean its trying to be goth. Believe it or not, goth isn't the only genre with darker undertones.

Guess you're right. Though when I said recent Industrial, I actually meant the mainstream works that are considered Industrial 'rock' or 'metal': Manson, Rob Zombie, Nine Inch Nails (recent work). Old school Industrial bands were without intention, alongside with goth bands like Specimen. So it was not their intention to be alongside with gothic rock, that's how it occured.

Goth, most definatley, is not the only style with dark overtones, though with the current bands like Manson, Rob Zombie (he has labeled Industrial), Mindless Self Indulgence have an image that looks goth without Industrial's dark overtones were bands, who have no real connection with goth culture, I was referring to. But please don't get me wrong, I love Industrial, like Ministry, I was only giving my opinion on Industrial's current relationship with goth and comparing it to how it was in the eighties. I apologize for not being specific.

Goth Forever

Draconysius · 05-24-2007, 06:20 PM

Yeah, Vyvian has a point. Some industrial bands seem to be more concerned with dressing the part and less concerned about keeping to the roots of the genre. But... let's wait for Maggz to give insight. He's gnet's resident industrial king.

Saddiction · 05-24-2007, 06:21 PM

There is a big difference between what someone considers industrial, and what industrial is. Manson and Zombie are NOT industrial. Mainstream, yes. Industrial, no.

It would be like someone saying 'Hey that new goth band MCR totally r0xx0rz my s0xx0rz'. You and all other people into the goth genre would disagree with that statement.

When I think of recent industrial, I don't think of NIN, Manson, or Zombie. I think of Metropolis records. Not everything on that record label is industrial, but a fair chunk of it is. Take God Module, Psyclon Nine, and Combichrist for example. I'd say those bands are fairly mainstream. Perhaps not regarded as 100% industrial, but definately mainstream within the industrial genre. Neither of the these bands are trying to be like goth. I assure you.

maggot · 05-24-2007, 06:32 PM

I'm very insulted. Very very insulted. Almost all I've seen here is false information.

Especially from you, Vyv. You're spewing utter crap, even in your rebuttal.

And drac, Twitch-era ministry is dance-industrial, Every Day era is gothy synthpop.

Industrial was around before you goths, we're not trying to dress like you. We dress militantly. Before the militancy, we dressed like punks. We were a statement saying "you can be more rebellious than punks"

Your rebuttal to that was listing poseur bands that wish they were industrial.

In other words, shut the fuck up; you have no idea what you're talking about.

I could say more. Maybe later.

Saddiction · 05-24-2007, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maggot

Your rebuttal to that was listing poseur bands that wish they were industrial.

Not sure if you're referring to me or Vyv since we both listed off bands.

maggot · 05-24-2007, 06:44 PM

Vyv. Especially the marilyn manson part.

Vyvian Blackthorne · 05-24-2007, 06:59 PM

Going to say this: I sincerly apologize to both maggot and Saddiction for insulting you both. It was not my intention, if anything, it was meant originally to differ what true Industrial was and poseur bands were, I sincerly apologize for that. I only ONE area of that I am speaking of. The rest is not place. In fact, it's to my own embarressment that I insulted you. I apologise also for being carried away in my rebuttel...that was insenstive. I love Industrial music, so I should not at all be spewing words against. I see both of your points. With this, I will not post in this thread anymore unless I am given a direct response to this or any of my previous posts. Maggot and Sadiction are two people I most definatley respect. I am willing to take any insults if they have left in them. Though I would like to say this:

Goth and Industrial should remain allies and brothers despite any musical or cultural crisis we may endure.

Goth Forever

Draconysius · 05-24-2007, 06:59 PM

I would accept the fact that industrial only exists in what is called "industrial noise" by most, but I really wanted to avoid calling all those modern "industrial" dj's, bands, die-hard fans, and promoters complete bullshit. The label "industrial" started off in a completely different place than it's in now, but is it really the matter of dance and synthpop adapting small pieces of it... or is it all complete crap?

maggot · 05-24-2007, 07:04 PM

It's alright, Vyv, just don't do that again o_O

Drac: Well industrial has really evolved, I call a lot of the new stuff post-industrial, but there are some that actually came from industrial, such as power noise that would stay as "industrial"

And rephrase your question.

Draconysius · 05-24-2007, 07:08 PM

Ok, in simpler terms...
Does most of today's music labelled "industrial" qualify as a mix of industrial with other genres... or not? I'd say sometimes yes, most of the time no. A lot of bands these days labeled "industrial" are either darkwave or ebm.

Saddiction · 05-24-2007, 07:11 PM

Industrial is noise. It started as being very experimental. Things evolve. Industrial has been around for the past 40 years or so. You can't expect it to be the same as it was then. Over time, the industrial genre has branched off into many other sub-genres such as EBM, Future-pop, Electro, and the most familiar Power Noise. There are others, but I think you get the point.

maggot · 05-24-2007, 07:13 PM

I agree with you, and everything blends into each other, so I don't quite know how to answer it.

Saddiction · 05-24-2007, 07:42 PM

No worries, Vyv. I was just stating my disagreement.

happy_dude · 05-25-2007, 05:48 PM

They both should be good friends, it makes it easier when you have a Goth/Industrial section. However, I do not like the fact that Industrial and more obnoxiously EBM is so popular. It seems nearly impossible to find any Goth rock besides the classics and even they're hard to find. So yeah, I don't really care as long as I can easily find the albums, which I can't.

Also Vyv, you have to remember Industrial Rock has been around for quite awhile. Both Killing Joke and Alien Sex Fiend can be classified as Industrial Rock.

Vyvian Blackthorne · 05-25-2007, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happy_dude

They both should be good friends, it makes it easier when you have a Goth/Industrial section. However, I do not like the fact that Industrial and more obnoxiously EBM is so popular. It seems nearly impossible to find any Goth rock besides the classics and even they're hard to find. So yeah, I don't really care as long as I can easily find the albums, which I can't.

Also Vyv, you have to remember Industrial Rock has been around for quite awhile. Both Killing Joke and Alien Sex Fiend can be classified as Industrial Rock.

Good goth...that is very true. I have seen that Goth and Industrial have their similarties, and yes it has been around for a long time. I guess I like the expiremental industrial rock, like ASF's recent work and Killing Joke. I was referring to the notables in Industrial rock, such as Coil and :wumpscut:, I don't dislike them, but that form of Industrial rock just isn't in my tastes.

Goth Forever

IsolatedReptile · 05-26-2007, 08:39 AM

I don't think Nine Inch Nails every tried to be anything. He wore black. He listened to old school GothRock, Post Punk, and some eighties industrial, but his music is his own, and he definitely hadn't copied and pasted from anyone like other artists.

In anyone's opinion, when did it stop being industrial? I really only consider Throbbing Gristle, Caberet Voltaire, and some early Suicide works to be industrial, not too much after that.

maggot · 05-26-2007, 09:01 AM

Their first album was a Skinny Puppy rip-off.

I say it became post-industrial when Industrial Records went out of business, creating the second wave of industrial. The second wave meant that they actually had guidelines, taking away some of the experimental bit, therefore being "post-industrial."

There are modern bands I still consider as industrial, though. These are bands that are still completely experimental, like the first wave was.

Make sense?

I love talking about industrial.

IsolatedReptile · 05-26-2007, 09:20 AM

Reznor had admited that Skinny Puppy was an influence, but I find NIN's music much easier to listen to than a lot of Skinny Puppy.

Who was a part of this post industrial scene? My guess would be Skinny Puppy and their ilk, but I'm not into industrial as I used to be so I could be a bit off.

maggot · 05-26-2007, 09:34 AM

Post-industrial is everything after the first wave, barring experimental music. It's not really a separate thing like post-punk is, it's more of a dividing line.

And I like skinny puppy!

IsolatedReptile · 05-26-2007, 09:39 AM

I enjoy Skinny Puppy too, they're just a lot more harsh than Pretty Hate Machine was.

Vyvian Blackthorne · 05-26-2007, 09:58 AM

Guess the similarites in NIN's work to Skinny Puppy are in their early work. I think now they've developed their own musical style, just with much success. This isn't a bad thing. Personally I like both, though I do perfer Skinny Puppy, I find NIN a good band as well even if I perfer their early work to their current. PHM and Fixed/Broken are my personal favourites of theirs, some tracks on PHM sounded like electro-pop. And yes, the synths and mixing of Skinny Puppy are indeed harsh like how the guitar usage in certain kinds of metal are well, heavy. It's not a bad thing, like I mentioned.

Goth Forever