Wonder Woman Gets A Makeover - Page 3

ape descendant · 07-01-2010, 12:01 PM

Hee hee, maybe they were trying to make her look more like Joan Jett.

Saya · 07-01-2010, 12:26 PM

Aha! I like it better now XD

This has indeed been one of the most hotly debated topics in a while XD

Despanan · 07-01-2010, 12:53 PM

Kay, so a couple of things:

1) Saya, Sol, I don't know if you're aware of this but Wonder Woman, while she was created to be a feminist superhero, was created by psychologist William Moulton Marston who had...shall we say issues. Wonder Woman's powers, weaknesses, and even aspects of her costume (such as the lasso, wrist irons, and losing her powers after being 'bound by men') are directly inspired and centered around his, his wife's, and their mistresses' various fetishes.

Hence Suffering Sappho

Hence the "used to have a skirt" argument, really not holding water; If you want to claim she's a feminist icon who's been defiled to appeal to sex-crazed teenage boys, that is. Wonder Woman was always part Womyn and part fetish model.

2) They actually tried to change her costume/character once before, which involved trading her leotard and magical powers for a mod outfit and martial arts. This idea was scrapped when Gloria Steinem herself came to the defense of the original concept, and Wonder Woman appeared, in her leotard on the first cover of Mz with the caption "Wonder Woman for President".

To tell you the truth, I agree with Ben. This new costume just isn't iconic like the traditional one. I really don't think it'll last.

Despanan · 07-01-2010, 01:12 PM

Stupid gnet editing window. It was the cover of Ms. My bad.

Saya · 07-01-2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despanan

Kay, so a couple of things:

1) Saya, Sol, I don't know if you're aware of this but Wonder Woman, while she was created to be a feminist superhero, was created by psychologist William Moulton Marston who had...shall we say issues. Wonder Woman's powers, weaknesses, and even aspects of her costume (such as the lasso, wrist irons, and losing her powers after being 'bound by men') are directly inspired and centered around his, his wife's, and their mistresses' various fetishes.

Hence Suffering Sappho

Hence the "used to have a skirt" argument, really not holding water; If you want to claim she's a feminist icon who's been defiled to appeal to sex-crazed teenage boys, that is. Wonder Woman was always part Womyn and part fetish model.

Like I said, being sexy (or being into fetish) doesn't mean you're not feminist. She was created to be a role model for girls and teach boys that women can be strong too. He never said that she was a fetish model or that she had much to do with fetishism, and he wasn't the one who had her lose her powers. All he's said was that she is an extremely beautiful woman. A lot of the theory that she's a bondage model had to do with just linking her lasso to his private life, and of course the Seduction Of The Innocent put it forward strongly, which led to her losing power and face, just like Batman had to get a girlfriend to quell the accusation that he was poisoning our youth with his homosexuality.

Quote:

2) They actually tried to change her costume/character once before, which involved trading her leotard and magical powers for a mod outfit and martial arts. This idea was scrapped when Gloria Steinem herself came to the defense of the original concept, and Wonder Woman appeared, in her leotard on the first cover of Mz with the caption "Wonder Woman for President".

Gloria Steinem was outraged that Wonder Woman lost her powers and glory, Wonder Woman is apart of DC's Trinity and the only woman of the three, losing her powers and becoming a girly girl was a slap in the face to her. I haven't heard Steinem's comment on the new costume yet but she still has her powers intact so I don't see what problem she would have with it. And Gail Simone gave it her thumbs up, she's quite arguably the most capable Wonder Woman writer we've had in a very long time who handled her in a great feminist way.

Quote:

To tell you the truth, I agree with Ben. This new costume just isn't iconic like the traditional one. I really don't think it'll last.

I kinda think they're going to go back and have another media event of her being back in her panties.

ape descendant · 07-01-2010, 01:22 PM

IMO, if they want to change the way she looks so drastically, why not just come up with a new superhero?

She could keep super magical knives in her boots and super tampons that paralyze bad guys with fear.

Maybe even ditch the tiara thingy and go for a stylish fedora or perhaps a bowler.

Ohhh and suspenders... and a white tank top... aaaand... giant combat boots...

But when she's not out whipping the crap out of bad guys, she's mild-mannered Donna Everywoman.. and she works at a bakery, which is how she maintains her super powers.. she must eat doughnuts to maintain her awesome woman powers!!!

She'd be Super Freakin' Awesome Chick!!!

Saya · 07-01-2010, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ape descendant

IMO, if they want to change the way she looks so drastically, why not just come up with a new superhero?

They changed her back story, got rid of her Steve Trevor love interest (brought it back for the recent animated movie but that was a travesty unto itself), gave her new powers, she's really not the same Wonder Woman she was before. Superman and Batman went through very dramatic changes as well, and no on really says "well they should've just killed them off and created new characters!"

ape descendant · 07-01-2010, 01:31 PM

I dunno.. I don't really read DC or Marvel... I used to have a couple WW comics back in the day, but I didn't keep them as they didn't really make sense to me in the context I was used to.

For the most part I used to watch WW on TV... because Linda Carter is one of the most beautiful women to exist.. right up there with Joan Jett.

Mostly I was having fun with my "making up a new superhero" mini rant. I got a little carried away. *blulsh*

Saya · 07-01-2010, 01:36 PM

If you want to jump back into it though you can jump into it nowadays, you might need to read up on it but its been great lately. I'm not kidding when I say Gail Simone is an awesome writer!

And I'm really hoping that they get All Star Wonder Woman out there sometime soon, that'll be a recap of her origin story making it easier for people not really into comics to jump in.

Ben Lahnger · 07-01-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

They changed her back story, got rid of her Steve Trevor love interest (brought it back for the recent animated movie but that was a travesty unto itself)...

Hey, I liked the animated movie a lot! In fact, I liked it enough to decide it was worth it to buy the DVD. I never read the comics that contained the re-imagined origin story by George Perez (the "Gods and Mortals" story arc) from 1987 that it was based on, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

Superman and Batman went through very dramatic changes as well, and no on really says "well they should've just killed them off and created new characters!"

No, but I said "well they shouldn't have killed them off. If they wanted some characters to be this different, they should have just created new characters.

gothicusmaximus · 07-01-2010, 02:59 PM

Every comic book superhero of note has gone through dozens of costume changes. They never last.

Saya · 07-01-2010, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Hey, I liked the animated movie a lot! In fact, I liked it enough to decide it was worth it to buy the DVD. I never read the comics that contained the re-imagined origin story by George Perez (the "Gods and Mortals" story arc) from 1987 that it was based on, though.

It was so stupid. I didn't think Wonder Woman would be that quick to forgive Steve for trying to get her drunk so he could have his way with her unconscious body. Or the message of "hey, just put up with mild sexism, no one likes a shrill feminist."

Quote:

No, but I said "well they shouldn't have killed them off. If they wanted some characters to be this different, they should have just created new characters.

I like Batman fine with being a pacifist, although I guess Frank Miller screwed that up >.>

ape descendant · 07-01-2010, 03:17 PM

You know, its kinda funny. I never really thought of Wonder Woman as a specifically feminist hero, but now that you mention it.. it makes some sort of sense, I guess.

drewsilla · 07-01-2010, 03:27 PM

As long as Wonder Woman is kicking ass and taking names, it shouldn't matter how she's dressed. She'll always be WW underneath it all. At least they didn't change her hair color!!!

Ben Lahnger · 07-01-2010, 03:33 PM

Wow! Saya, we REALLY disagree! I just pulled out the DVD and watched through the bar scene (I know she forgives him later) and there's no doubt that he tried to get her to drink to see if she would become more pliable (which has it's own problems) but there's no indication he wanted her unconscious.

I just didn't have the problems with the movie that you did. Neither did my SO. I definitely did not think it was stupid.

As far as changing characters goes, Frank Miller's Dark Knight and Dark Knight Returns are about the only time someone screwed around with one of these characters and I liked it. It seemed to me that was the logical end game for Bruce Wayne's psychosis.

We shall not talk about the travesty that is All-Star Batman and Robin, other than to say I think Miller is just trying to screw with DC.

Saya · 07-01-2010, 03:36 PM

Steve Trevor was so creepy in that movie. In the current universe they were never romantic interests but good friends and he married Etta Candy.

Erm, Dark Knight Returns 2 was quite a travesty as well.

Oh, and does anyone miss Batman's Greatest Boner?

http://dialbforblog.com/archives/136/

Ben Lahnger · 07-01-2010, 03:40 PM

Yeah, disagreeing here again.

I like The Dark Knight Strikes Again almost as much as I like The Dark Knight Returns.

Ben Lahnger · 07-01-2010, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya

Oh, and does anyone miss Batman's Greatest Boner?

http://dialbforblog.com/archives/136/

That's pretty freakin' funny!

Saya · 07-01-2010, 03:47 PM

How did you feel about the part where Wonder Woman talks about how Superman threw her to the ground and "took her as his rightful prize"? Or how everyone except the one underage girl were simply gratutious?

Ben Lahnger · 07-01-2010, 05:50 PM

Saya, I think THIS REVIEW summarizes why I like The Dark Night Strikes Again fairly well. While I don't think it's quite as brilliant a reinvention of comics as 1986's The Dark Knight Returns, I think it's close.

To address your specific points, I'm going to quote a part of the review that I think addresses them:

"The only real weakness of 'DK2' is that it lacks the character development of Miller's other works. But satire has always taken liberties with this aspect of storytelling; many times characters in 'DK2' are there not for who they are but for what they stand for. Because Miller is dealing with characters who are familiar to readers simply by virtue of our media-drenched society, he can get away with this."

Also, I find it interesting that you highlight the Wonder Woman comment intimating forced sex (and by her comment supposedly giving tacit approval for such an act) instead of going with the more controversial and damaging fact that Miller killed off Captain Marvel, The Guardian, The Creeper, Hawkman, Hawkwoman and other heroes.

In recent years I've had a hard time talking to my sister who has swung to being a hard right conservative. I tried to talk to her to her once about why I'm a moderate ... that the truth and the right idea and the correct solutions to problems don't consistently ride with the left or with the right. So either side is wrong on occasion. But she is so sensitized to what she perceives as the extreme left and the liberal media, that she automatically pulls to the right the minute she thinks she's hearing a liberal idea.

I sometimes wonder if feminists don't sometimes have that kind of reaction.

Frank Miller may very well be a misogynist (his Sin City stories lead me to believe he is), but in the context of the kind of satire that DK2 represents, I don't think you can read too much into the violence and moral decay that riddles that book, and yes, even riddles some of the heroes in it.

Saya · 07-01-2010, 06:09 PM

Saying "Its only satire!" Doesn't really make sense unless Miller is quite willing to admit that he's more than part of the problem. He's incapable of writing women as anything other that gratuitous, DK2 isn't funny, satire or any sort of social commentary, saying its satire is like slapping paint on a canvas and calling it art.

Despanan · 07-01-2010, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Erm, Dark Knight Returns 2 was quite a travesty as well.

Atop the Fourth Wall agrees.

HumanePain · 07-02-2010, 06:09 AM

Wonder Woman asks "And what's wrong with the way I dress?":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hebulwTWc94

vindicatedxjin · 07-02-2010, 06:11 AM

I can't believe this topic has gotten this far...

Despanan · 07-02-2010, 08:15 AM

I can. Wonder Woman is a cultural icon, messing with her look/cannon is a big thing.