The Dark Knight Rises

[Saya]

Ledger stole the show, but I still hate Batman Begins.

And you know, The Dark Knight was good, but it was overhyped.

[Renatus]

Personally I've thus far loved the whole series. Then again I'm no comic book afficianado or anything.

I am curious why you didn't like Batman Begins, and ask that as I take the time once again to appreciate that wonderful picture of Batwoman you have as your avatar.

[Renatus]

I will admit one thing I don't like about this is that this is THE END, I don't want it to end. Not that I like the concept of there never being an end to chaos, but what does one expect a fan to do when a series they enjoys ends? At least though this won't be drawn out like the previous batman movie series.

But what if I want to see more Batman movies in the future? How does one say goodbye to one batman just so you can say hello to a new one? and to be quite frank I think there must be a new one eventually. Batman is an American icon, one of great goodness, without Batman I truly think America would be a worse place to live in. Superheros are the figures of incorruptible good that we need in a world full of corruption.

[Saya]

What didn't I like? Christian Bale is a terrible Batman, even in Dark Knight I felt no investment in him. Ra's was whitewashed, and I struggle to see Liam Neeson in general as a villain. I hate how Nolan had a one female character quota for the first two movies when he's deriving from a canon that has amazing female characters. Its good to see that since Inception he's bumped that up to a two female character quota, I guess. Katie Holmes bugged me and I wasn't rooting for them to get together, I was pretty happy when she left him in the end. I hated how Scarecrow was underused and was taken down easily.

Oh wait, Dark Knight DID have that WoC cop, but it turned out she was corrupt. I was hoping she'd be the Renee Montoya of the film but LOL NOPE she's a bitch and deserves to be beaten.

[AshleyO]

Man, Bale was just a so-so Batman. He's just okay.

But then again, I'm not crazy nuts over the Batman character so much. It is his villains that make Batman interesting.

I'm confident about this movie. I'm annoyed as shit at Catwoman's design.

They even admitted that they needed to use big rubber soles for her boots while filming. Don't these mother fuckers realize then that heels for an acrobat are stupid as shit?

[Saya]

I've been sick this week and been doing a lot of reading in bed, and I also realized that Catwoman hasn't been white in comics since the bronze age, she's supposed to be biracial. Lots of artists whitewash her and I don't know if they're going to keep her mother black in the new 52, but Cooke, who was arguably the best Catwoman artist and came up with the catsuit Nolan is using, always drew her as biracial.



Not to mention she's undisputably not white in some very beloved comics Nolan couldn't have missed like Batman: Year One.

So, all official characters of colour are white in this film.

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by Saya

I've been sick this week and been doing a lot of reading in bed, and I also realized that Catwoman hasn't been white in comics since the bronze age, she's supposed to be biracial. Lots of artists whitewash her and I don't know if they're going to keep her mother black in the new 52, but Cooke, who was arguably the best Catwoman artist and came up with the catsuit Nolan is using, always drew her as biracial.



Not to mention she's undisputably not white in some very beloved comics Nolan couldn't have missed like Batman: Year One.

So, all official characters of colour are white in this film.

Well that leaves us with an issue of casting the character then, name some biracial actresses who you think have the skill to pull off the Catwoman.

[Solumina]

I can think of quite a few off the top of my head but I really would have loved to see Zoe Saldana take on the role, especially since she has a strong dance background that gives here that easy, nimble grace that Catwoman should always have, even when not performing stunts.

Besides there really isn't a shortage of biracial actresses or those of any other minority group they just aren't cast as readily as their white counterparts.

[Saya]

Good choice! I think Rosario Dawson would do a great job too, she's a fun person and she seems geeky enough to put her heart into it.

And yeah, its not that there's a lack of biracial actresses, its just when we do PoC characters white people tend to whitewash. If it was only Catwoman I'd probably say it was a missed opportunity, but again, this is a movie that SHOULD have three very well known iconic PoC in Batman canon.

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by Solumina

I can think of quite a few off the top of my head but I really would have loved to see Zoe Saldana take on the role, especially since she has a strong dance background that gives here that easy, nimble grace that Catwoman should always have, even when not performing stunts.

Besides there really isn't a shortage of biracial actresses or those of any other minority group they just aren't cast as readily as their white counterparts.

I thought of her too but I must admit I'm a bit biased against her by her performance in avatar and Colombiana, her acting in those roles just didn't do it for me. The performance in avatar is especially relevant I think when it comes to her ability to portray a character rather than just her physical prowess. Could you really imagine her purring? is she wily enough?

Not saying Anne Hathaway is more qualified than her, but if we're going to be coming up with an ideal actress for the role, might as well be nit picky.

[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by Saya

Good choice! I think Rosario Dawson would do a great job too, she's a fun person and she seems geeky enough to put her heart into it.

And yeah, its not that there's a lack of biracial actresses, its just when we do PoC characters white people tend to whitewash. If it was only Catwoman I'd probably say it was a missed opportunity, but again, this is a movie that SHOULD have three very well known iconic PoC in Batman canon.

Would I be the only one who would feel slightly uneasy with Batman laying the law down on a Latino, Asian/Arab, and a black/white person all in the same movie?

I can only imagine what that might look like to someone who's sensitive to racism but knows nothing about Batman.

Then again, there's not really much of a way to spin that. They should have just went for it anyway and not whitewashed the characters despite what that may have looked like.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

Would I be the only one who would feel slightly uneasy with Batman laying the law down on a Latino, Asian/Arab, and a black/white person all in the same movie?

I can only imagine what that might look like to someone who's sensitive to racism but knows nothing about Batman.

Then again, there's not really much of a way to spin that. They should have just went for it anyway and not whitewashed the characters despite what that may have looked like.

Depends on how they do this. Batman usually lets Catwoman go even if he spoils her plans, and it seems they're pretty friendly with each other in the trailers, and SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER in interviews Hathaway and others have been talking about how Selina is this fun person Bruce falls for and is brought out from his isolation and misery because of her. Bruce and Talia's relationship in the comics have been a lot more complicated than just him lawing down the law on her. The only real exposure to Bane I have is from Secret Six and I didn't like him much there, so I can't really comment on his relationship with Batman. (OMG WOULDNT IT BE AWESOME FOR THEM TO HAVE A VILLAINS UNITED MOVIE).

Anyway, they've done something similar in Dark Knight, I'm pretty sure Morgan Freeman is the only black man not a criminal who is horrifically murdered by the Joker, and he's typecast as the Magical Negro trope.

[AshleyO]

Morgan Freeman does that trope ALL THE TIME.

It's weird. Bruce Almighty anyone?

[Saya]

Yeah, on the Magical Negro Tv Tropes page its just like "Morgan Freeman in this this this...aw hell, just Morgan Freeman."

[AshleyO]

Holy shit yes!!!!!

[Solumina]

I cannot take a bad guy seriously if he sounds like Deckard Cain, it just doesn't work.

[AshleyO]

I'm going to have to see it again to recollect all the information I saw the first time. Wow. Great movie. Very fitting end to the whole thing too.


Spoiler (highlight to read):
I really liked that Nolan made sure that Bane was technically stronger and better than Batman the whole time and it was Catwoman who actually killed Bane by catching him off guard with a rocket launcher bike.

[Saya]

This whole thing could have been avoided if Batman just called up his boyfriend.

[Versus]

Hahahahahaha. XD

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by AshleyO

I'm going to have to see it again to recollect all the information I saw the first time. Wow. Great movie. Very fitting end to the whole thing too.


Spoiler (highlight to read):
I really liked that Nolan made sure that Bane was technically stronger and better than Batman the whole time and it was Catwoman who actually killed Bane by catching him off guard with a rocket launcher bike.

I could not disagree with you more, the whole thing reeked of Nolan's ego and how clever he thinks he is, as if we should be surprised that Catwoman isn't straight up villain and really how obvious was Talia, I mean come on and then to give the fake story about the child being Bane was just dumb. It would have been one thing to let Bruce come to that conclusion on his own and just not correct him but to tell the story like that was a poor choice. Don't even get me started on the problems with the ending.

[AshleyO]

It's unfortunate that you didn't like it.

I thought it was great.

[AshleyO]

I also enjoyed watching:

Batman being taken down quite a few notches. While I like Batman, I don't particularly care about what he actually represents and what kind of message he makes in our world today. He's become a symbol of order and "salvation" more than that of justice. But maybe that's because I think of justice differently now. Bane beating the shit out of him and damn near killing him had me grinning ear to ear.

[AshleyO]

I'm surprised that no one else is talking about this movie.

Are Solumnia and I the only ones that have seen it so far?

I'm a bit confused about Sol's assessment that Nolan was being pretentious with his genius on this one as I'm assuming she probably figures that TDK was actual genius or at least edging on it (she may not have liked TDK either). That would be weird as the story telling between the two films aren't that different in direction and the writing was incredible.

Even IF you didn't like the movie, there's a shit load of stuff here to tap into.

For me, personally, there was a lot of things that happened that made me wonder about the distinct lack of things I actually wanted and wondered if maybe this was intentional. I thought the movie was brilliant despite the fact that I disagree with the thesis of the movie.

Hopefully other people will weigh in.

[Saya]

I'm debating to see it with Versus or wait for DVD, I haven't liked much of what I've heard. Plus I didn't like Batman Begins so I'm not thrilled about it going back to that story line.

[CuckooTuli]

Just watched this. Honestly, I thought it was fucking awful; actually without redeeming feature. The storyline was BRIMFUL of plotholes, the character relationships were unconvincing, I can't think of a single pairing with any chemistry whatsoever, and the dialogue... holy fuck did the writing suck.

***SPOILERY SAMPLE OF SUCK***

BANE: So, you came back to burn along with your city.

BATMAN: Nooo, I came back to stop you.

Seriously. THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF WHERE THE ZINGER IS SUPPOSED TO GO, PEOPLE. But NOPE, Batman decides to stick with the schoolyard-level trash talk skills of a particularly grim and earnest seven year old. Fuck you, writing staff. You make Joss Whedon weep.

I'll get into the specific focal points of my ire in more depth tomorrow, but for now: amidst its TOTAL failure to do anything remotely cool (even in a crappy-but-hey-my-inner-kid-approves kind of way), it is literally impossible to create menace when yr baddie sounds just like Falcor from Neverending Story.