Darn it.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Gothic.net

Different people are bugged by different things, and to be honest, I don't think Gothic culture or style is about being uber-careful not to bug anybody. There is obviously room for disagreement on what exactly is good or bad to bug people with though. Really, if the ad had been seen as too sexual or whatever, it would have probably been bounced. It didn't seem to be that big a deal, but talking about it is fine too. To a point anyway. Once it devolves into childish photochopping and trollery, well, then it's no longer a discussion of the actual subject matter.

I'm not even talking about what Duckman did because I didn't even get to see it, I'm just talking about the offensiveness of it. How many people are victims of demon possession? Take that number, and how many people do you think are victims of rrape and violence? Don't you think its probably triggering to have a picture of a woman being attacked on a forum that doesn't even set an minimum age requirement for its members?

And as Despanan said in another thread, Exorcism isn't going to get me kicked out of a library, porn is.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Well, I'd argue that they support that activity because they're bored and it gives them something new to talk about.

I think if you guys ramped up the content, maybe allowed for open submissions and/or actively sought some better stories and articles, you might see the site improve (both in the behavior of the community and in regular hits).

Right now the whole thing has kinda degenerated into people who come here to slander others semi-anonymously, and people who show up simply because of the domain name.

If you and the other people running the site are cool with that, more power to you, it's your site, but I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the "embarrassing" state of the forums entirely on the userbase.

Basically, the Gnet forums are an internet ghetto. You need a public works project to improve it, or things are gonna stay the same.

When we're good we're pretty good though, or people wouldn't keep coming. I still hold that our recent religion threads were some of the best religion discussions I've ever had online, and I belonged to three different very successful religious forums.

[Gothic.net]

I think if people are that sensitive, this clearly isn't the place for them. Creepy dude with a knife linked to horror movie is ok, but that ad isn't because there might be a (consensually) sexual context? I think if someone has assault triggers, they will be bugged either way.

[Despanan]

Plus, honestly, Duckman is entertaining as hell. I enjoy his antics (sans poop, I didn't see any of that thankfully) and his posts (most of the time).

Just be aware of the type of person he is: he's going to needle you when he thinks you're being unfair, or just for the hell of it, and if you push him, he will push back (and it's not like he's worried about being banned).

Kontan and I trolled the hell out of a noob last night for the same reason. It's like if a pack of dogs sees something running: they have to chase.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Gothic.net

I think if people are that sensitive, this clearly isn't the place for them. Creepy dude with a knife linked to horror movie is ok, but that ad isn't because there might be a (consensually) sexual context? I think if someone has assault triggers, they will be bugged either way.

There is an understanding that what happens in movies isn't real. No one is going to take a flick about exorcism or a slasher dude seriously.

Not so much with hardcore porn. I think you'd see a similar reaction if said "Creepy dude with a knife" was from an actual ***** film.

I mean, I'm sure no actual **** was going on (at least I'd hope so) but the context, and it's level of social acceptance is completely different. Which is really what we've been complaining about this whole time. Surely you can see the difference between a generic Hollywood slasher and hard core fetish porn?

[Gothic.net]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Plus, honestly, Duckman is entertaining as hell. I enjoy his antics (sans poop, I didn't see any of that thankfully) and his posts (most of the time).

Just be aware of the type of person he is: he's going to needle you when he thinks you're being unfair, or just for the hell of it, and if you push him, he will push back (and it's not like he's worried about being banned).

Kontan and I trolled the hell out of a noob last night for the same reason. It's like if a pack of dogs sees something running: they have to chase.

Exactly, it's just who you are. You can't help it.

[Gothic.net]

Originally Posted by Despanan

There is an understanding that what happens in movies isn't real. No one is going to take a flick about exorcism or a slasher dude seriously.

Not so much with hardcore porn. I think you'd see a similar reaction if said "Creepy dude with a knife" was from an actual ***** film.

I mean, I'm sure no actual **** was going on (at least I'd hope so) but the context, and it's level of social acceptance is completely different. Which is really what we've been complaining about this whole time. Surely you can see the difference between a generic Hollywood slasher and hard core fetish porn?

To me, they are all fantasy being portrayed by actors. There is no reason to take one more seriously than another. They play their role, they get paid, they go home.

Or maybe it's different if I call it a generic Hollywood BDSM video and a GORY HARDCORE SLASHER. Ohhh, that's much more scarry.

[Saya]

Abuse is rampant in the porn industry, but I doubt the average slash horror chick has to take it anal or she doesn't get paid.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Gothic.net

To me, they are all fantasy being portrayed by actors. There is no reason to take one more seriously than another. They play their role, they get paid, they go home.

dude, I am an actor. The differences between pornographic acting and regular acting are pretty substantial to say the least. The policies, the industries, and the normative social attitude towards these two professions are night and day.

Just because you don't see a difference doesn't mean that most other people won't, and behave accordingly.

[Gothic.net]

Originally Posted by Saya

Abuse is rampant in the porn industry, but I doubt the average slash horror chick has to take it anal or she doesn't get paid.

No, it's not. At least not nearly as much as some people fantasize. If you don't want to do something, your agency knows. If you sign on for a job that has certain performance requirements because you want the extra money it pays, that's your choice. Not force, choice. People just like to act like they had no responsibility for their actions later to maintain their supposed innocence. Horror actors don't get paid about as often as porn actresses, particularly if they refuse to do their job.

[Gothic.net]

Originally Posted by Despanan

dude, I am an actor. The differences between pornographic acting and regular acting are pretty substantial to say the least

But you still called them both acting.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Gothic.net

I agree with you. But, there are people here who are very resistant to change of any sort and are also very quick to insult and deride any activity aimed at improvement. Is this site where I would like it to me? Certainly not. Do I like working on it in any way? No, not really. I have better things to do with my time than deal with some fool posting pictures of their shit because they think it's rebellious and cool. And, if the community roundly supports that sort of behavior, well, why bother improving it?

"We have met the enemy, and he is us." - Pogo

By definition, one of the roles of an Admin at any website is to strive to improve it regardless of the behavior, no ... in spite of the bad behavior of its worst members.

I have no interest in seeing pictures of poop. If I did, I'd do a google image search for "poop" and find (disgustingly so) many, many pictures as bad or worse than what Duckman posted here. But what I can't believe is that you got your feelings that butt-hurt over his juvenile antics. Especially since, compared to what I see transpire on other websites, his trollery wasn't even that aggressive.

And none of that should have any bearing on your pursuit of your duties here.

“By far the most dangerous foe we have to fight is apathy - indifference from whatever cause, not from a lack of knowledge, but from carelessness, from absorption in other pursuits, from a contempt bred of self satisfaction” - William Osler

Originally Posted by Gothic.net

I don't even tell people I work with this site anymore and neither does anyone else who works with it, because people just roll their eyes and talk about what a bunch of unbearable idiots run around here. It's embarrassing.

Not everybody is bad, but a few really do make a terrible impression.

Well, rather than rolling your eyes with them, why don't you disabuse them of that false impression.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Gothic.net

No, it's not. At least not nearly as much as some people fantasize. If you don't want to do something, your agency knows. If you sign on for a job that has certain performance requirements because you want the extra money it pays, that's your choice. Not force, choice. People just like to act like they had no responsibility for their actions later to maintain their supposed innocence. Horror actors don't get paid about as often as porn actresses, particularly if they refuse to do their job.

Uh, yeah, it is. Sure no one puts a gun to your head but if money is on the line and its this or poverty, what do you do? In Suck It, Wonder Woman Olivia Munn has trouble shooting with clothes on for Playboy, not some random back alley shoot, and They Shoot Porn Stars Don't They? talks about how they are pressured to do things they don't want. It has all the problems of prostitution and while that may not be the case with Stylish Brutality and there is women friendly porn out there, you can't pretend that there are no problems or that it is comparable to pressure a porn actress to take a fuck machine up the ass to an actress getting pressured to run faster from a slasher murderer.

And you took down the hentai ads fast when people had a problem with that, apprently cartoon women have consensual sex is too bad for you but you can't see why the appearance of rrape and brutality against real women isn't offensive?

AND you removed the Goth As Fuck subnick as well for the same reasons.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Gothic.net

But you still called them both acting.

Yeah, but that's where the similarities end. (and is completely beside the point, as we're discussing how the average person is going to respond to a slasher ad vs a porno ad)

But lets go down that road. Even in a society where Ron Jeremy and Jenna Jameson are household names, you can't tell me that they or their respective bodies of work (no pun intended) are seen in the same light as the likes of Daniel Day Lewis and James Earl Jones.

Legitimate acting is an art, which for the most part has very little money in it. People train for it their whole lives and most end up doing it for free. There are unions which mandate the treatment and pay of actors, directors, and playwrights, and at it's zenith, live theatre is seen as a fine art with it's greatest works being held on par with those of painters, sculpters and classical literature.

By contrast porn is produced quickly and cheaply, and made specifically to titillate the audience in the most base manner while maximizing the highest level of profit. Plays are rehearsed for months ahead of time and movies take years to complete, whereas it's not uncommon for good old pr0n actors and actresses to churn out literally hundreds of movies over the course of their short careers. Plus, It's not like there are non-profit porno companies out there ya dig?

What does porn have? What is it's zenith? Pirates?

The best comparison one might find between the sex industry and performance art is burlesque and as it's name implies, that's not exactly held up as a "fine art".

There's really no comparison.

[Gothic.net]

Bullshit Saya. That's just a fantasy. There are lots of jobs equally available. That particular one is a choice. There are jobs I would hate to have, like say working in a slaughterhouse. But, if I took that job and did that job, I don't think I should get the same level of sympathy for complaining that I didn't get paid after I refused to kill cows. I wouldn't want to be a plumber, but it would be out of line to call one up when my pipes were clogged and have him refuse to do the dirty work while still expecting to get paid. Los Angeles has many options other than porn, but people tell you they had no control and no option, because they weren't the kind of person that did that for a living. Also, the stripper is paying for her mom's operation. Pretending there are no problems is a far cry from pretending there are 'rampant' problems, as you said. Exaggerating my point to dismiss it is a faulty argument.

[Saya]

Listen, I get that you only said "I would appreciate your comments on this" to appear to be mature, but you're ruining that image if you're just going to put your fingers in your ears and say "LALALALALALA NO PROBLEMS WITH THE PORN INDUSTRY LALALALALALALALLA THE ADS ARE FINE LALALALALALA NO HYPOCRISY LALALALALA", you're making discussion impossible, and its pretty evident that it doesn't matter one lick what we say.

No one is saying no option but few people are willing to stand up to employers over any job, let alone one where you're already naked with a man on top of you. I get maybe you're just in the camp where you have no sympathy for workers of any sort because you think they should have to do the demeaning jobs they have little say even though its a shitty shitty economy out there, but you can't seriously dismiss the long unresolved debate amongst sociologists and scholars over the morality of porn by saying "BULLSHIT ITS WONDERFUL".

[Gothic.net]

Originally Posted by Saya

Listen, I get that you only said "I would appreciate your comments on this" to appear to be mature, but you're ruining that image if you're just going to put your fingers in your ears and say "LALALALALALA NO PROBLEMS WITH THE PORN INDUSTRY LALALALALALALALLA THE ADS ARE FINE LALALALALALA NO HYPOCRISY LALALALALA", you're making discussion impossible, and its pretty evident that it doesn't matter one lick what we say.

No one is saying no option but few people are willing to stand up to employers over any job, let alone one where you're already naked with a man on top of you. I get maybe you're just in the camp where you have no sympathy for workers of any sort because you think they should have to do the demeaning jobs they have little say even though its a shitty shitty economy out there, but you can't seriously dismiss the long unresolved debate amongst sociologists and scholars over the morality of porn by saying "BULLSHIT ITS WONDERFUL".

Again with the exaggerations. I don't have my fingers in my ears, I disagree with your point of view. There are lots of jobs that different people would find potentially demeaning, but that doesn't mean you can sign up for them and simply say it's demeaning so you should get paid for not doing it. That isn't total lack of sympathy for workers. It might be some sympathy for employers though. There are lots of adult performers who find the job about as annoying as any job, no more no less. Projecting your values on a job you wouldn't do is poor logic.

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Gothic.net

See, the problem is, people like Fruitbat decide now is a good time to start posting pictures of piss or whatever. I mean seriously, that's just poor judgment.

G.net - It was yellow food colouring and Cadbury's Crunchie Rocks (which are an Australian Chocolate Bar) in a kid's potty.

You are right, I'd much rather look at someone being used as a footstool than have see some yellow food colouring and chocolate in a potty. My poor taste (It must be Australian humour or something).

I am truly sorry if it offended anyone. Next time, I'll make sure I include some bondage to keep G.net happy.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Gothic.net

Again with the exaggerations. I don't have my fingers in my ears, I disagree with your point of view. There are lots of jobs that different people would find potentially demeaning, but that doesn't mean you can sign up for them and simply say it's demeaning so you should get paid for not doing it. That isn't total lack of sympathy for workers. It might be some sympathy for employers though. There are lots of adult performers who find the job about as annoying as any job, no more no less. Projecting your values on a job you wouldn't do is poor logic.

I mentioned specific instances and linked to an article that interviews actual porn starts, if actual workers are saying its demeaning and hard to say no, its hard to project my own values on it if I'm going by their values.

Anyway, if you pay attention to our more mature discussions you'd know that i recently said that I don't even have a problem with porn or prostitution or anything like that in principle, but I am very concerned about working conditions for said workers, and i already said in this thread that I know there is women friendly porn out there, what I'm saying is that there is NO comparison between porn and a big Hollywood blockbuster film. I'm sorry if my values are too radical that I'm concerned that people bodies are being commodified and abused on a large scale which doesn't happen in other movies, but there you go.

And you never answered my question about the hentai and the Goth As Fuck thing.

[Gothic.net]

Originally Posted by Saya

I mentioned specific instances and linked to an article that interviews actual porn starts, if actual workers are saying its demeaning and hard to say no, its hard to project my own values on it if I'm going by their values.

Anyway, if you pay attention to our more mature discussions you'd know that i recently said that I don't even have a problem with porn or prostitution or anything like that in principle, but I am very concerned about working conditions for said workers, and i already said in this thread that I know there is women friendly porn out there, what I'm saying is that there is NO comparison between porn and a big Hollywood blockbuster film. I'm sorry if my values are too radical that I'm concerned that people bodies are being commodified and abused on a large scale which doesn't happen in other movies, but there you go.

And you never answered my question about the hentai and the Goth As Fuck thing.

The company being advertised is an ethical woman run independent operation with a staff that enjoys the work and is actually involved in the Gothic and/or counterculture scene in Los Angeles. Some other companies couldn't have gotten that spot. The ads were judged to be free of naughty bits, etc. Didn't think it would be a big deal. You and I don't agree on some tangentially related points of view. You are not going to convince me and I'm probably not going to convince you, nor am I ultimately here to do so.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Plus, honestly, Duckman is entertaining as hell. I enjoy his antics (sans poop, I didn't see any of that thankfully) and his posts (most of the time).

Just be aware of the type of person he is: he's going to needle you when he thinks you're being unfair, or just for the hell of it, and if you push him, he will push back (and it's not like he's worried about being banned).

Kontan and I trolled the hell out of a noob last night for the same reason. It's like if a pack of dogs sees something running: they have to chase.

And what usually happens to packs of dogs running down anything and everything?

I get a call from someone in the community that there is a pack dogs running loose and causing problems or growling/snapping at children (I'm about talking little kids here, 3-5 years old in some cases) as the dogs wander onto other peoples property,a few minutes or a few hours later (Depending on the animals habbits) is usually when I get a free box of ammo or a few packs of cigarettes for a job well done.

[Gothic.net]

My guess is that ad placement here had more do do with Julie Simone and her crew doing the most recent Front Line Assembly video than anything particularly porn industry related, but that's just my guess really.

[Gothic.net]

*sigh*

[Still Jack]

To be fair, The abuse threads are rather entertaining. I mean, come on, who enjoys reading a bitch fit about schools that won't allow heavy eyeliner and are "totally racist against gofficks" and shit like that. I don't give a flying fuck about a porn ad. Seriously, it's the Internet, about 80% of it is porn. And on another note, abuse on the Internet is nothing new either. What of it if someone posts a pic of feces? Remember 2 girls 1 cup, 4chan, chatroulette and shit like that. Get a grip people, It's just a fucking forum.

p.s Anyone that disagrees with me can snort coke off Jeffree starrs Balls.

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Well, I'd argue that they support that activity because they're bored and it gives them something new to talk about.

I think if you guys ramped up the content, maybe allowed for open submissions and/or actively sought some better stories and articles, you might see the site improve (both in the behavior of the community and in regular hits).

Right now the whole thing has kinda degenerated into people who come here to slander others semi-anonymously, and people who show up simply because of the domain name.

If you and the other people running the site are cool with that, more power to you, it's your site, but I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the "embarrassing" state of the forums entirely on the userbase.

Basically, the Gnet forums are an internet ghetto. You need a public works project to improve it, or things are gonna stay the same.

Very much this.