The abortion thread pt. 2.

[Alan]

I hate pussies that think a conversation must be civil instead of it being good.
I don't give a shit if I hurt anyone's sensibilities nor if hey hurt mine; what I want is a coherent and self consistent opinion. I ain't pretending ideas aren't fucking stupid if they really are just for the sake of etiquette.

[Versus]

That's the thing. He confuses a point of contention as disrespect and thinks that it somehow excuses him from defending misogynist and illogical thinking. I don't know what the fuck he expects to happen when he slut shams women, especially my favorite woman, but I'm sure he'd much prefer us to make our argument politely so that he can politely ignore us. It's a privilege tool to invalidate somebody's argument because it's angry rather then recognize that strong emotion and think "Hey! What could make somebody so passionate? Maybe I should listen." And that's all he won't do. He'll hide behind a male privilege that women don't have and walk the fuck away when being confronted makes him uncomfortable.

[CuckooTuli]

It's a tricky one. I do think civility is generally more useful than all-out attack when you're trying to get someone to reconsider their views rather than simply shut down defensively, but that's not to say that everyone is entitled to a bottomless pit of patience regardless of their views. People get frustrated, as Versus pointed out, because you can't be going around educating people all the time - especially if they're not really listening, or engaging with the points you're making. Where it does come down to a choice between directness and politeness, it's a no-brainer as to which is more conducive to debate; refusing to listen to people on the basis that they aren't being super-nice to you is far more counter-productive. Surely the substance of what's being said is more important than whose arse is getting licked. One of the things I actually like about this place is the directness of the debate, and the fact that no one gets a free pass when their logic doesn't stand up, no matter how popular a member they are.

My personal belief is that this goes back to what I was saying about the mainstream being a massive enabler, shielding people from their own privilege and from the true injustice of the world. Ergo, lefties are likely to assume a more combative stance, because they feel that pandering to privilege is part of the problem.

This may not make them your favourite person, which is fine. But don't confuse insults with a lack of substance; the anger levelled at you in this thread isn't aimless, is fully accounted for by every individual who's expressed it, and has gained in momentum due to the sense that you're withholding a fair hearing of the points raised on the basis that people aren't being nice enough to you. This isn't, like I said, anything personal; it's simply because this entitlement reeks of privilege, which is seen as the very problem. So far you've been unwilling to examine your own views or to justify your logic, which is frustrating.

[Versus]

It's not even that I lost patience. I hardly even said anything to him because I tried to consciously keep myself from becoming the monologue. It's just that when he said the fight for social justice was just a distraction to keep people from talking about more important shit I got pretty fucking livid and wrote him off.

Originally Posted by Varbane

As for you all going after me on the base that my opinion is politically motivated and that I'm some right wing not job. You couldn't be more wrong. Fact is I hate both the left and right with a passion. This country has pretty much been shit for years regardless of who's in charge. All politics are is mind games meant to distract people from the truth that's right in front of them. Politics is also a mind game used to keep people divided. That's why both sides make such a huge damn deal about social issues in the first place. They count on differing view points creating division between people. And has been working like a charm for years. This thread is pretty much proof of that.

And then he writes some sob story that basically says "Well, if I, as a cisgendered white guy can say that I'm self sufficient, then nobody else has an excuse. There is no problem!"

I'm just so fucking tired of hearing the same bullshit. I mean come the fuck on, I'm not bothered by something so it must not really be a problem! Y'all are just be cry babies.

And my favorite part was when he said "I really don't know what the fuck I'm talking about," but still didn't concede that this shit is oppressive as fuck. I mean for fuck's sake, it's not like you need to have dealt with an unwanted pregnancy to either educate yourself or understand what the fucking problem is.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Varbane

When it comes to abortion my opinion tends to fall somewhere in the middle. If they want to abort the baby because they simply don't want one, I do find that offensive and wrong. But, lets say a woman was r-a-p-ed and became pregnant. I could see why an abortion would an option. Mostly because one could never know the effect on someone and there is no way of telling how a woman might react when the baby is born if she is forced to carry it full term. I'd hate to see her carry this child only to abandon it or kill it because the whole ordeal was to much to handle.

Another time where I think abortion should be an option is if there are health issues with the baby that might lead to major long term health conditions. If having the child is going to doom it to a life time of hardship I really don't think its fair to the child. I'd hate to see a child that's in and out of surgery, constantly in pain and can hardly enjoy life because the parents couldn't let the kid go.

So, I'm curious, about a couple things regarding your stance. You oppose elective abortion but support in the case of r-pe or if the unborn child has a serious medical problem.

If you were able to limit availability of abortion to these circumstances (which I'd like to point out that you didn't say anything about the mother's health/life), how would you do so, how far does some one have to go to prove that they were r-ped? Does one merely have to say that they were, do they have to prove it in court, how would that even work? Regarding "health issues" in the fetus, what sorts of health issues make it ok, what sort don't and how would that be regulated? What sorts of penalties should happen if these guidelines aren't followed?

Also, I would like to know why leaving the decision up to the mother inside whom all this happens is an unacceptable option.